Post-Game Talk: Sabres 3, Penguins 1 - Deja Vu All Over Again

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HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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Remember how a significant number of people blamed Kessel for all this teams' problems?

It's almost like he was a symptom and not the cause of everything wrong

For the record, I was on the "Get Sully's Head out of his Ass or Fire Him" side of things.

He needs to clarify with GMJR what kind of roster he will ice and stick to it (this 9 defensemen bullshit is ridiculous), and if he can't control the room and make some adjustments, we start thinking about a mid-season coaching change.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
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For the record, I was on the "Get Sully's Head out of his Ass or Fire Him" side of things.

He needs to clarify with GMJR what kind of roster he will ice and stick to it (this 9 defensemen bull**** is ridiculous), and if he can't control the room and make some adjustments, we start thinking about a mid-season coaching change.

I feel like those two need to sit down and clarify a lot of things. The communication and ability to all get on the same page with this team is a near-disgrace.

Remember how a significant number of people blamed Kessel for all this teams' problems?

It's almost like he was a symptom and not the cause of everything wrong

I think Kessel had to go. But I never at any point would have characterized him as THE problem.

Just like JJ isn't THE problem, if we're being honest. There is a lot of rot, complacency, staleness and creeping arrogance loafing around this team.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
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I get that. I'm quite sure that's essentially what is at play, here.

But Sullivan at some point is gonna have to grab his sack and compete. I realize that is much easier said than done. I know who the loser almost always is when it comes down to a standoff between the bench and the FO. But either he's a competent coach with legitimate ideas or he's a lapdog. His time to decide.

He does have legitimate ideas and won b2b cups with those ideas.

The problem is his boss decided things had to be another way and now he’s twisting in the wind with personnel on D that aren’t even close to fitting what he needs.

It’s just all so bizarre and I’ll never be able to fathom what JR was doing. All I can come up with is he had to rid himself of his boogeyman, Wilson. It’s deep end of Krazytown shit, what else can I say?

People want Sullivan to change his system without truly understanding that won’t fix the issues. It will just mask the problems, frustrate his stars, and in the end the team will still not have a legit shot in the playoffs.

JR made himself a big mess and Sullivan has to sit in it and people are angry with him and want him to wave a magic wand.

I agree he has to be bold and bench guys, but it’s just a big sloppy ass mess JR made of the D and Sullivan basically has to show up his boss to fix things.
 
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BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
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I agree he has to be bold and bench guys, but it’s just a big sloppy ass mess JR made of the D and Sullivan basically has to show up his boss to fix things.

Well then that is what he will have to do if he wants to win. And I know he wants to win.

I agree with the rest. But I will say that yes... Sullivan had great ideas en route to B2B Cups. And I'll always thank him for that. But we've seen it over and over... these guys stick around a little too long. Maybe some arrogance starts to creep in. Conflicts start to pile up (players and/or FO) and eventually things unravel. We are seeing from Sullivan some of the same exact issues we saw with Disco when it comes to allowing things to become stale and going to the same wells over and over while the other team is already on their way to cutting off your water because they know where you are going.

I don't even know how much is really his fault, honestly. But coaches have a shelf life, even if they are good. Sullivan isn't exactly Iron Mike but he certainly has a, well... way... about him. Just sayin'

I WANT Sullivan to figure it out. Because coaching changes can be dicey. But man...
 

Angrrus

Registered User
May 24, 2017
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That was ****ing embarrassing. Pens are going to be garbage this year. Didn't fix a single issue from last year's disaster. Great work all around.

The issue #1 the way I see it, is that 87,71 and 58 have only 3 points between them, 0 at ES.

THIS IS NOT GONNA CUT IT.
 

turd

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Feb 1, 2013
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I’m on board with a coaching change if the circumstances permit it. I’m not sure I’m on board with GMJR being the one doing the hiring of a new coach.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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I wouldn't even include Rust on that list. He's a straight line guy who occasionally gets a goal, but I wouldn't put him on the spectrum as a finisher (not in 2 seasons at least).

The rest is true though. We have guys who 'look good' but can't bury a goal if their life depended on it. I don't see the fascination with some of these guys....they simply skate around quickly and that's about it. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like Kahun, Tanev, ZAR, Blueger, McCann, Bjugstad and Rust need droves of attempts/shots to get one - and that isn't going to happen when we're in our zone for 1 shot every 3-5 minutes.

I included more to show how that's the best we got. He's a utility forward, but he has a nice shot and given space, can bury it. Not sure we have many more that can do that.
 
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billybudd

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Feb 1, 2012
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I texted my brother before the game that Sheary was going to be the new Jason Blake. Sort of a journeyman scorer with flaws in his game who would not normally be of much significance except for that he turns into Bobby Hull when he's playing the Penguins. After two (more) goals yesterday, I'm counting the days until he gets traded to the Islanders and kills us from out east for the next five years. Isles always seem to have a guy like that. Before it was Blake, it was Miro Satan. After it was Blake, it was Kyle Okposo. Some day soon, it's going to be Conner Sheary.

Put me in the camp that didn't want to move him. Lot of things to be annoyed about with Sheary, but he's got a knack for being in the exact perfect place at the perfect time to get a good scoring chance. Even though he chops many of them wide (or whatever), the fact that he even gets these at the rate he does for as long as he has is a skill and it's a pretty rare, pretty valuable one.
 
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Burn

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Mar 24, 2018
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I agree that Simon looked good, but he should be on the 3rd and McCann on the 1st. At least Simon is the right type of player to play with Sid. He will get in on the fore check and put pressure on the opposing D, which is what we need. The problem I have with Simon is that he doesn't have a lot of finish. Even though he didn't show it last night, I feel like McCann has more finish.
Bjugstad too. Has a crazy shot that he never gets off.

Makes sense his uncle teaches a shooting school.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Well then that is what he will have to do if he wants to win. And I know he wants to win.

I agree with the rest. But I will say that yes... Sullivan had great ideas en route to B2B Cups. And I'll always thank him for that. But we've seen it over and over... these guys stick around a little too long. Maybe some arrogance starts to creep in. Conflicts start to pile up (players and/or FO) and eventually things unravel. We are seeing from Sullivan some of the same exact issues we saw with Disco when it comes to allowing things to become stale and going to the same wells over and over while the other team is already on their way to cutting off your water because they know where you are going.

I don't even know how much is really his fault, honestly. But coaches have a shelf life, even if they are good. Sullivan isn't exactly Iron Mike but he certainly has a, well... way... about him. Just sayin'

I WANT Sullivan to figure it out. Because coaching changes can be dicey. But man...

But Sullivan never did anything really wrong like DB.

He’s the kind of guy we all wanted when DB was torturing us and I don’t want to see him go.

Sullivan won his second cup, and that summer his GM spiraled into madness and got guys I know he didn’t want, and JR decided the team had to get big and tough !WILSON!

Now it’s the start of season 3 since JR’s madness took hold, and the defense is still a mess.

Ya, there are options in Riikola and Marino, but I dunno. Seems like a lot to hope for I guess and there are again politics at play as I discussed already.

What does it even matter if the young blueliners work out if JR still doesn’t grasp what this team’s identity needs to be for Sullivan to excel?

He will just deep six everything again if he isn’t fully on board.
 

ZeroPucksGiven

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Feb 28, 2017
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I think Kessel had to go. But I never at any point would have characterized him as THE problem.

Just like JJ isn't THE problem, if we're being honest. There is a lot of rot, complacency, staleness and creeping arrogance loafing around this team.

I agree Kessel had to go
But many many people on here insinuated that his removal was the anchor that was weighing the team down
 
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Big Friggin Dummy

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Feb 22, 2019
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I feel like those two need to sit down and clarify a lot of things. The communication and ability to all get on the same page with this team is a near-disgrace.



I think Kessel had to go. But I never at any point would have characterized him as THE problem.

Just like JJ isn't THE problem, if we're being honest. There is a lot of rot, complacency, staleness and creeping arrogance loafing around this team.
I've been thinking for a while now that JR and Sully just simply don't ever talk about each other's approach or philosophy toward building the team. Sully comes in and employs this aggressive, attacking style that results in not only a complete 180 of a team languishing under Mike Johnston, but back to back Stanley Cups, for f***'s sake. :laugh: It was so successful that the vast majority of the league has since adopted that style and use it. I can't imagine that the coach suddenly went "Yeah, f*** it, give me Ryan Reaves, Tanner Pearson, Jack Johnson, ZAR, Gudbranson, etc." I'm not as 100% sure Sully needs to stay as I used to be, and I still think JR is a complete dunce that has selfishly and arrogantly driven this team into the ground over the last two years. That being said, there is no the problem, but many, many problems. JR, Sully, complacency, certain players (JJ, Gudbranson, ZAR, perhaps Horny, perhaps Bjugs, perhaps Kahun, perhaps Schultz), etc.

There is a lot wrong, and it's not a "right now" situation. This kind of stuff has been a problem since our second of back to back Cups. JR was even shifting gears before we won the 2nd, going after a guy like Oleksiak simply because he was huge, ignoring the type of player he was and how he'd fit.

I don't think this team can fix itself entirely this season. At the same time, I don't think they even see a need to, or have what it takes to make the changes needed and shift their approach. I'm fine with watching us suck and miss the playoffs if steps are being taken to right the ship and become a stronger team moving forward. If we just shrug, follow the current trajectory and then go "wha happun" when we inevitably fail again, while taking no steps toward fixing things both roster-wise as well as front office/coaching-wise, heads should roll.
 
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Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
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It's obvious (at least to me) that JR is trying to do something. History suggests he will do something, and probably something significant. He is at his best when he is trading players. He has been atrocious at signing players but up until now it has not prevented him from building this roster back up.

The fact we have 9 D-men on the current roster seems to indicate to me that he is trying to get something done. But I also understand if he is a bit unsure right now, because he has acquired a lot of players lately whose game has gone into the tank under Sullivan.

Speaking of Sullivan, this to me is the biggest issue right now. Yeah the roster is uneven and there are pieces that do not fit and contracts that are wasting away on this roster, but Sullivan's philosophy isn't just too rigid...it's not working.

Aside from Hornqvist and the bottom two D-men, this team has the skaters to play the system Sullivan keeps preaching. Did we look fast last night? We looked as slow as ever. Meanwhile, the coaching staff still seems to be trying to "fix" Evgeni Malkin. Leave Geno be. He is an artist, a creator. You don't stifle that by asking him to change his game after 3 Stanley Cups and several individual trophies! Give his line time and let them be. They looked good last night.

We need to get rid of a few contracts (one of Johnson/Gudbranson, Hornqvist and probably Bjugstad), find another scoring winger from somewhere (preferably a right shot who can play on the PP) and figure out how to maximize the bottom six. DeSmith is also superfluous and should be moved.

JR has a lot of work to do. It MIGHT not be worth it. Perhaps Losing for Lafreniere makes more sense at this point.
 

Corvidae

Registered User
May 5, 2009
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Yes it was the defense that scored only 1 goal overall, 0 at ES. Great in-depth analysis.

Let's pretend for a second that you understand the connection between offense and defense and that letting up over 40 shots means you spent a lot of time in your own zone and don't have guys who could transition the puck to your forwards... let's PRETEND you know that, just for the exercise, OK? Alright, let's begin...

Nah, I changed my mind, I don't want to. I'd ask for your in-depth analysis but I very much don't want it.
 
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LOGiK

Registered User
Nov 14, 2007
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I really, really wish I didn't agree with this. There is so much flotsam and jetsam among this group. I didn't want to harp on it too much in the Summer and sound like a killjoy because I guess I at least approve of the general idea of getting harder to play against and playing with a lot more tenacity. But the goals have to come from somewhere and I'm just not seeing it in this support group.

Don't forget lagan and derelict.
 

YinzerNation

Registered User
May 11, 2017
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Curious how you guys feel this loss is attributed to Sully in any way..

From his very own words in his press conference. "I don't think there was cooperative effort...."
His MAIN job is to find the right line combinations, motivational techniques, or whatever is required to produce that "cooperative effort". Its not like there weren't signs of lack of cooperative effort at the end of last season. Unfortunately, it wasn't addressed. (Well at least Geno seemed to get the message on his own).

The only way Sully can be excused from any responsibility for this loss is that Buffalo is man-for-man more talented than the Pens. I definitely don't think that is the case. They were out-hustled, out-prepared, out-hockey IQ'd, played with no intensity(except Geno & Tanev) and ultimately outplayed. If Sully bears no responsibility for that, then there would be absolutely no need for coaches in the NHL.

Am I ready to throw him off the Smithfield St. Bridge....no, not yet...but If this group of players to refuse to buy into what he is selling....then change is inevitable.
 
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SHOOTANDSCORE

Eeny Meeny Miny Moe
Sep 25, 2005
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You didn't understand what I said. They are putting Letang in a bad situation. He's not the guy who skates the puck up. He's the guy who drops the puck off. It's putting him in a spot to fail. Who do I put there instead? Geno is probably one of the few guys that can do it. I'd sadly go with Geno.

The real answer is to change up the powerplay breakout. They are trying to almost replicate something we could do with 81. We can't. So find something that fits everyone's strength. IMO we are entering an era where we have to go back to simplicity whether Sid likes it or not.
This, and not just the PP. We're going to have to make up for talent with simplicity and systematic play. We need to evolve a bit if we want to compete.

So now that Kessel is off the team, who do we blame for the primo shorthanded chance against last night?
The puck bouncing like a super ball?
 

molon labe

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Jul 13, 2016
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From his very own words in his press conference. "I don't think there was cooperative effort...."
His MAIN job is to find the right line combinations, motivational techniques, or whatever is required to produce that "cooperative effort". Its not like there weren't signs of lack of cooperative effort at the end of last season. Unfortunately, it wasn't addressed. (Well at least Geno seemed to get the message on his own).

The only way Sully can be excused from any responsibility for this loss is that Buffalo is man-for-man more talented than the Pens. I definitely don't think that is the case. They were out-hustled, out-prepared, out-hockey IQ'd, played with no intensity(except Geno & Tanev) and ultimately outplayed. If Sully bears no responsibility for that, then there would be absolutely no need for coaches in the NHL.

Am I ready to throw him off the Smithfield St. Bridge....no, not yet...but If this group of players to refuse to buy into what he is selling....then change is inevitable.

The fact you think it was 'effort' that caused the loss, then attribute that directly to the one guy in this conversation who isn't on the ice is interesting. Because he didn't create enough 'rah-rah' chants he's at fault for how we lost?

Here's something to ponder: roster. We don't have forwards who can score. We don't have defensemen who can move the puck up ice. We don't have defensemen who can keep the puck in our zone. Yet, despite that Sully is supposed to talk his way through it.

Man for man? Buffalo has a better D corps than we do...isn't even close. They outshot us and seemingly outhustled us because they had more zone time - wonder why. Guys were still blocking shots (a Sully thing), and were still trying to generate offense - but there's only so much you can do when you get a shot off and it's immediately going the other way, and staying there for 3-4 minutes at a clip.
 

ZeroPucksGiven

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Feb 28, 2017
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But Sullivan never did anything really wrong like DB.

He’s the kind of guy we all wanted when DB was torturing us and I don’t want to see him go.

Sullivan won his second cup, and that summer his GM spiraled into madness and got guys I know he didn’t want, and JR decided the team had to get big and tough !WILSON!

Now it’s the start of season 3 since JR’s madness took hold, and the defense is still a mess.

Ya, there are options in Riikola and Marino, but I dunno. Seems like a lot to hope for I guess and there are again politics at play as I discussed already.

What does it even matter if the young blueliners work out if JR still doesn’t grasp what this team’s identity needs to be for Sullivan to excel?

He will just deep six everything again if he isn’t fully on board.

I agree with most of what you said, but this isn't 100% on JR

No one has put a gun to his head to play JJ- witness the scratching in Game 1 playoffs after 82 games of the JJ experience
No one put a gun to Sully's head to then play a hobbled Maata instead. He had another option in Rikko that he failed to deploy or give a chance

JR hasn't bought the freshest ingredients, there's no doubt. But Sully insists on cooking everything on a George Foreman when he's got a proven track record that he knows how to cook on the stainless steel grill
 

SHOOTANDSCORE

Eeny Meeny Miny Moe
Sep 25, 2005
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From his very own words in his press conference. "I don't think there was cooperative effort...."
His MAIN job is to find the right line combinations, motivational techniques, or whatever is required to produce that "cooperative effort". Its not like there weren't signs of lack of cooperative effort at the end of last season. Unfortunately, it wasn't addressed. (Well at least Geno seemed to get the message on his own).

The only way Sully can be excused from any responsibility for this loss is that Buffalo is man-for-man more talented than the Pens. I definitely don't think that is the case. They were out-hustled, out-prepared, out-hockey IQ'd, played with no intensity(except Geno & Tanev) and ultimately outplayed. If Sully bears no responsibility for that, then there would be absolutely no need for coaches in the NHL.

Am I ready to throw him off the Smithfield St. Bridge....no, not yet...but If this group of players to refuse to buy into what he is selling....then change is inevitable.
He was spot on. Geno implied something similar. They had trouble reading each other, their timing was off, there wasn't good puck support. They were individuals, not a team. They need to play games and get into a flow, develop chemistry. After they do that, then we should reassess.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
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I agree with most of what you said, but this isn't 100% on JR

No one has put a gun to his head to play JJ- witness the scratching in Game 1 playoffs after 82 games of the JJ experience
No one put a gun to Sully's head to then play a hobbled Maata instead. He had another option in Rikko that he failed to deploy or give a chance

JR hasn't bought the freshest ingredients, there's no doubt. But Sully insists on cooking everything on a George Foreman when he's got a proven track record that he knows how to cook on the stainless steel grill

You just said his options were a shitty defenseman, a slow and injured defenseman, and a rookie with no playoff experience that was struggling.

So your food analogy should be more like saying here’s a rotten tomato, some expired bread, and some mystery meat... make me a great sandwich.

You could certainly bring a new coach in that may jump start them for a couple months, but in the end the self-inflicted flaws JR created will bubble back to the surface and cause major issues IMHO.
 

Big Friggin Dummy

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Feb 22, 2019
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You just said his options were a ****ty defenseman, a slow and injured defenseman, and a rookie with no playoff experience that was struggling.

So your food analogy should be more like saying here’s a rotten tomato, some expired bread, and some mystery meat... make me a great sandwich.

You could certainly bring a new coach in that may jump start them for a couple months, but in the end the self-inflicted flaws JR created will bubble back to the surface and cause major issues IMHO.
Wonderfully stated.

No coach gets this team performing at a level to truly compete. As you said, maybe a change sparks the guys for a bit, but they'll eventually come back to the reality that the roster just isn't built well. No amount of systematic changes or "muh adjustments" gets a guy like JJ or Maatta, or Gudbranson, etc. doing what successful NHL d-men need to do (skate well, move the puck well, handle the forecheck), or gets guys like Bjugs, Kahun, Simon, ZAR, etc. to be impact players.
 
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