Prospect Info: Ryan Poehling Part 4 (No MB talk)

[ottawa]

I think it 9 games Mean he burn a year of ELC but no change on is UFA but 39 game would affect is UFA status.

Yep, you're right.

If you play your 10th game then the first year of your ELC is burned
If you play your 40th game then the season counts as an accrued year towards your 7 years to UFA

 

[BaseballCoach]

Yep, you're right.

If you play your 10th game then the first year of your ELC is burned
If you play your 40th game then the season counts as an accrued year towards your 7 years to UFA

For the bolded part, that is only for players who are 19 or less on Dec 31st of the year in progress, or who turned twenty after Sept 15th but were signed to their ELC when they were considered 18. In Poehling's case he turned 20 three days after December 31st, so he is allowed 9 games.

In the case of older players like Charlie Lindgren and most other guys coming out of college, they burned their first ELC year with one pro game.

This was all pretty clear. What was not clear was what standard was being used to determine whether a player was a "first or second year pro" for purposes of the expansion draft. It now appears to be the same standard as the "pro years accrued" that is used for UFA purposes.

 

[vokiel]

I think the right answer in this is to get him to the team, let him play 9 games, we don't know injuries at that point, Rosters will be expanded and he will be a year closer to free agency yeah but we at least have him, which has always been the concern with NCAA players

He can't do that and finish his degree. That's the usual for NCAA players. He'll have space on the roster when he finishes, it'll just be on the left wing.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

He can't do that and finish his degree. That's the usual for NCAA players. He'll have space on the roster when he finishes, it'll just be on the left wing.

That's the thing with ncaa players, they aren't available if you want them early.
Could he join the team this year just before PO starts? Or get into the team in the PO?
I don't know the rules.

 

[vokiel]

That's the thing with ncaa players, they aren't available if you want them early.
Could he join the team this year just before PO starts? Or get into the team in the PO?
I don't know the rules.

Roster is frozen after the TDL except for X amount of emergency call ups.

 

[calder candidate]

So in order to play in the playoff would he need to sign before the trade deadline?

 

[Habs Halifax]

For the bolded part, that is only for players who are 19 or less on Dec 31st of the year in progress, or who turned twenty after Sept 15th but were signed to their ELC when they were considered 18. In Poehling's case he turned 20 three days after December 31st, so he is allowed 9 games.

In the case of older players like Charlie Lindgren and most other guys coming out of college, they burned their first ELC year with one pro game.

This was all pretty clear. What was not clear was what standard was being used to determine whether a player was a "first or second year pro" for purposes of the expansion draft. It now appears to be the same standard as the "pro years accrued" that is used for UFA purposes.

This seems confusing. How does the RFA 7 years of NHL seasons (1st season kicking in when they play 40 NHL games) affect the 2 years of pro years for the expansion draft? How many AHL games do they have to play? Does this start counting only after they are 20 (After Dec 31st of a particular season) OR if they play 40 NHL games before they are 20? We don't typically have to worry about that for most players as they start in the AHL after they turn 20. However, it's the players who are under the age of 20 that are AHL eligible where the confusion begins.

I think Nylander is a good example. He played 37 AHL games (0 NHL games) as a 18 year old in 14/15 which was 3 seasons before the Vegas expansion draft. He was a 3 year pro but was exempt for the expansion draft? When was his first pro year? Was it the 15/16 season or the 16/17 season cause he turned 20 and also played more than 40 NHL games? At the time of the Vegas expansion draft, did Nylander only technically have 1 "pro year" even though he played 3 AHL seasons? And the Leafs only bought the remaining 6 RFA years in his 6 year deal with no UFA years?

14/15:
- 3 seasons before the Vegas expansion draft
- He was considered a 18 year old that year (turned 19 in May of 2015)
- Played 37 AHL games
- Played 0 NHL games

15/16:
- 2 seasons before the Vegas expansion draft
- He was considered a 19 year old that year (turned 20 in May of 2016)
- Played 38 AHL games
- Played 22 NHL games

16/17:
- 1 season before the Vegas expansion draft
- He was considered a 20 year old that year (turned 20 before Dec 31 of 2016)
- Played 0 AHL games
- Played 81 NHL games

So as long as Poehling does not play 40 NHL games this year, he will be exempt from the Seattle Expansion draft cause he don't turn 20 till Jan of 2020?

 

[BaseballCoach]

This seems confusing. How does the RFA 7 years of NHL seasons (1st season kicking in when they play 40 NHL games) affect the 2 years of pro years for the expansion draft? How many AHL games do they have to play? Does this start counting only after they are 20 (After Dec 31st of a particular season) OR if they play 40 NHL games before they are 20? We don't typically have to worry about that for most players as they start in the AHL after they turn 20. However, it's the players who are under the age of 20 that are AHL eligible where the confusion begins.

I think Nylander is a good example. He played 37 AHL games (0 NHL games) as a 18 year old in 14/15 which was 3 seasons before the Vegas expansion draft. He was a 3 year pro but was exempt for the expansion draft? When was his first pro year? Was it the 15/16 season or the 16/17 season cause he turned 20 and also played more than 40 NHL games? At the time of the Vegas expansion draft, did Nylander only technically have 1 "pro year" even though he played 3 AHL seasons? And the Leafs only bought the remaining 6 RFA years in his 6 year deal with no UFA years?

14/15:
- 3 seasons before the Vegas expansion draft
- He was considered a 18 year old that year (turned 19 in May of 2015)
- Played 37 AHL games
- Played 0 NHL games

15/16:
- 2 seasons before the Vegas expansion draft
- He was considered a 19 year old that year (turned 20 in May of 2016)
- Played 38 AHL games
- Played 22 NHL games

16/17:
- 1 season before the Vegas expansion draft
- He was considered a 20 year old that year (turned 20 before Dec 31 of 2016)
- Played 0 AHL games
- Played 81 NHL games

For Nylander, he was a 1 year pro for expansion purposes, not because he played 40 games as a 20 year old, but just because he WAS a 20 year old. Neither 2014-15 nor 2015-16 was an accrued season.

His new contract kicked in July 1 2018 (retroactive) which came after TWO pro seasons, 2016-17 and 2017-18, so Toronto paid for the remaining FIVE years of his RFA status plus ONE UFA year with the 6 year deal starting this year.

 

[Sam I Am]

...

So as long as Poehling does not play 40 NHL games this year, he will be exempt from the Seattle Expansion draft cause he don't turn 20 till Jan of 2020?

This is incorrect. Poeling turned 20 last month. His birthday is January 3, 1999.

 

[DAChampion]

 

[ottawa]

For the bolded part, that is only for players who are 19 or less on Dec 31st of the year in progress, or who turned twenty after Sept 15th but were signed to their ELC when they were considered 18. In Poehling's case he turned 20 three days after December 31st, so he is allowed 9 games.

In the case of older players like Charlie Lindgren and most other guys coming out of college, they burned their first ELC year with one pro game.

This was all pretty clear. What was not clear was what standard was being used to determine whether a player was a "first or second year pro" for purposes of the expansion draft. It now appears to be the same standard as the "pro years accrued" that is used for UFA purposes.

I see, thank you. Has that age rule always been in place for the 10 game rule?

 

[BaseballCoach]

I see, thank you. Has that age rule always been in place for the 10 game rule?

I think since 2005.

 

[Habs Halifax]

This is incorrect. Poeling turned 20 last month. His birthday is January 3, 1999.

It's correct. You have to turn 20 before Dec 31st this season (2018) in order to be a 20 year old this NHL season. From what I understand, Poehling's RFA years will not start this season in any situation. His ELC (if he signs it) will kick in if he play 10 games but this will not affect his RFA years which is the threshold of "2 years or less of pro experience" for the next expansion draft.

 

[Runner77]

So in order to play in the playoff would he need to sign before the trade deadline?

According to the La Presse piece:

Il pourrait disputer au moins dix matchs avec le Canadien en fin de saison sans perdre une saison d'éligibilité professionnelle en prévision du repêchage de l'expansion, mais en disputant un seul match avec le CH, il «brûlera» la première de ses trois années de contrat d'entrée de la LNH. S'il rejoint l'équipe en avril, le Canadien devra donc lui soumettre une nouvelle entente dans deux ans plutôt que trois.

For the expansion draft purposes, he could play at least 10 games with the Habs in the regular season without having to be protected.

For ELC purposes, he only needs to play one game with the Habs and he will burn the first of his 3 years of eligibility -- we've seen this in past years when a player is coming from the NCAA.

Poehling will obviously be seeking to avail himself of this loophole in his favor. However, when will his NCAA season end?

 

[BaseballCoach]

It's correct. You have to turn 20 before Dec 31st this season (2018) in order to be a 20 year old this NHL season. From what I understand, Poehling's RFA years will not start this season in any situation. His ELC (if he signs it) will kick in if he play 10 games but this will not affect his RFA years which is the threshold of "2 years or less of pro experience" for the next expansion draft.

RFA years (i.e. years on an ELC) are not the same thing as accrued seasons for UFA and Expansion draft purposes.

You are correct for Poehling in this particular case, because at this point, it is impossible for him to be on the Habs active roster for 40 NHL regular season games.

 

[Habs Halifax]

RFA years (i.e. years on an ELC) are not the same thing as accrued seasons for UFA and Expansion draft purposes.

You are correct for Poehling in this particular case, because at this point, it is impossible for him to be on the Habs active roster for 40 NHL regular season games.

I understand. ELC (9 games) and RFA status (40 games) are not the same thing. We agree on Poehling not burning a RFA year this NHL season. It's impossible based on what I gather. Two reasons...

1) He is considered a 19 year old this season cause he turned 20 after Dec 31
2) It's impossible for him to play 40 NHL games this year.

He can however play 10 games and burn his ELC but this won't affect his RFA status or "pro years of experience"

 

[Habs Halifax]

According to the La Presse piece:

Il pourrait disputer au moins dix matchs avec le Canadien en fin de saison sans perdre une saison d'éligibilité professionnelle en prévision du repêchage de l'expansion, mais en disputant un seul match avec le CH, il «brûlera» la première de ses trois années de contrat d'entrée de la LNH. S'il rejoint l'équipe en avril, le Canadien devra donc lui soumettre une nouvelle entente dans deux ans plutôt que trois.

For the expansion draft purposes, he could play at least 10 games with the Habs in the regular season without having to be protected.

For ELC purposes, he only needs to play one game with the Habs and he will burn the first of his 3 years of eligibility -- we've seen this in past years when a player is coming from the NCAA.

Poehling will obviously be seeking to avail himself of this loophole in his favor. However, when will his NCAA season end?

I'm not sure I agree with this. Three reasons why

- He is not considered a 20 year old this season cause he turned 20 after Dec 31st.
- The threshold for "pro experience years" is the same as RFA years (40 NHL games) or you turn 20 before Dec 31st and play either AHL or NHL games. (whichever comes first).
- ELC and RFA status are two completely different rules.

It's impossible for Poehling to burn his first RFA year this year. He can burn his ELC but this has nothing to do with RFA years.

 

[Runner77]

I'm not sure I agree with this. Three reasons why

- He is not considered a 20 year old this season cause he turned 20 after Dec 31st.
- The threshold for "pro experience years" is the same as RFA years (40 NHL games) or you turn 20 before Dec 31st and play either AHL or NHL games. (whichever comes first).
- ELC and RFA status are two completely different rules.

It's impossible for Poehling to burn his first RFA year this year. He can burn his ELC but this has nothing to do with RFA years.

I would seek out the CBA provisions and how they're being interpreted for the purposes of the expansion draft but I don't want to invest that kind of time.

So, I'll just go with what the piece is saying:

Le repêchage de l'élargissement est à la base de l'imbroglio. La LNH a eu à ajuster les règles de la convention collective, déjà compliquées pour les joueurs collégiaux, en prévision du repêchage destiné à Seattle.

The NHL has had to make adjustments to the status of NCAA players in anticipation of the upcoming expansion draft.

La confusion existe aussi du fait que le cas Poehling constitue un précédent, me rappelait ce midi le recruteur et spécialiste du repêchage Simon Boisvert. Aucun joueur n'était dans cette situation en 2015, à deux ans du repêchage de l'élargissement des cadres avec Vegas, puisqu'on a officialisé l'arrivée des Golden Knights en juin 2016 seulement. Il n'y avait donc pas de règle établie en pareille circonstance.

We can't use the previous expansion draft as a precedent in respect of the upcoming expansion draft. Poehling apparently constitutes a precedent this time round. There were no players in Poehling's situation at the prior expansion draft.

Pour faire une histoire courte, Ryan Poehling est donc considéré comme un joueur collégial de 19 ans pour les règles touchant au ballottage et à l'élargissement des cadres, mais comme un joueur de 20 ans pour le statut contractuel.

They're not providing the full details but the end result is that Poehling is considered to be a 19 year college player for the purpose of the expansion draft but he is considered to be a 20 year old in respect of his contractual status (ELC).

What is important to note is that Habs's VP of Legal Affairs, John Sedwick, was contacted by the writer of the La Presse article. Sedwick in turn, contacted an NHL official:

Sedwick et le Canadien détenaient pourtant une autre information. Selon leurs renseignements, Poehling était admissible à au moins dix matchs (saison régulière ou séries éliminatoires) sans avoir à perdre une année d'éligibilité en prévision du repêchage de l'expansion.

J'ai rappelé John Sedwick pour contre-vérifier. Celui-ci a appelé la LNH pour s'assurer qu'il détenait la bonne information. Il avait vu juste. La LNH a passé un coup de fil à l'autre équipe pour l'aviser que le Canadien détenait la bonne info finalement.

Conclusion: Poehling can play at least 10 games (regular season or playoffs) without losing a year of eligibility in respect of the expansion draft. There was another team that was inquiring about their player, who is in the same position as Poehling and the NHL confirmed the same to them. At the end of the day, if the NHL confirms that Poehling is not eligible for the expansion draft under these guidelines, then it's good enough for me.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I would seek out the CBA provisions and how they're being interpreted for the purposes of the expansion draft but I don't want to invest that kind of time.

So, I'll just go with what the piece is saying:

Le repêchage de l'élargissement est à la base de l'imbroglio. La LNH a eu à ajuster les règles de la convention collective, déjà compliquées pour les joueurs collégiaux, en prévision du repêchage destiné à Seattle.

The NHL has had to make adjustments to the status of NCAA players in anticipation of the upcoming expansion draft.

La confusion existe aussi du fait que le cas Poehling constitue un précédent, me rappelait ce midi le recruteur et spécialiste du repêchage Simon Boisvert. Aucun joueur n'était dans cette situation en 2015, à deux ans du repêchage de l'élargissement des cadres avec Vegas, puisqu'on a officialisé l'arrivée des Golden Knights en juin 2016 seulement. Il n'y avait donc pas de règle établie en pareille circonstance.

We can't use the previous expansion draft as a precedent in respect of the upcoming expansion draft. Poehling apparently constitutes a precedent this time round. There were no players in Poehling's situation at the prior expansion draft.

Pour faire une histoire courte, Ryan Poehling est donc considéré comme un joueur collégial de 19 ans pour les règles touchant au ballottage et à l'élargissement des cadres, mais comme un joueur de 20 ans pour le statut contractuel.

They're not providing the full details but the end result is that Poehling is considered to be a 19 year college player for the purpose of the expansion draft but he is considered to be a 20 year old in respect of his contractual status (ELC).

What is important to note is that Habs's VP of Legal Affairs, John Sedgwick, was contacted by the writer of the La Presse article. Sedgwick in turn, contacted an NHL official:

Sedwick et le Canadien détenaient pourtant une autre information. Selon leurs renseignements, Poehling était admissible à au moins dix matchs (saison régulière ou séries éliminatoires) sans avoir à perdre une année d'éligibilité en prévision du repêchage de l'expansion.

J'ai rappelé John Sedwick pour contre-vérifier. Celui-ci a appelé la LNH pour s'assurer qu'il détenait la bonne information. Il avait vu juste. La LNH a passé un coup de fil à l'autre équipe pour l'aviser que le Canadien détenait la bonne info finalement.

Conclusion: Poehling can play at least 10 games (regular season or playoffs) without losing a year of eligibility in respect of the expansion draft. There was another team that was inquiring about their player, who is in the same position as Poehling and the NHL confirmed the same to them. At the end of the day, if the NHL confirms that Poehling is not eligible for the expansion draft under these guidelines, then it's good enough for me.

1) I don't understand how that article came up with the 10 games. That is ELC rules, not RFA rules.

2) Nylander is a good example. He played 3 AHL seasons before the Vegas expansion draft but was exempt from the draft. He fell under the age 19 (before Dec 31) and the RFA threshold of 40 NHL games. He was a 18 year old playing in the AHL which is similar to NCAA players IMO. The only difference is no ELC for NCAA players until they turn pro. Once they turn pro, the age 19 (before Dec 31st) is the first rule you look at. Poehling turned 20 after Dec 31st so he does not burn his RFA years unless he plays 40 games.

* The other thing to note about Nylander is his ELC and RFA years were started in different seasons. His ELC started in 15/16 (he played 22 NHL games but was 19) and his first RFA year was in 16/17 cause he was 20 that season.

That's how I understand it... until someone provides something that is logical and goes against it.

 

[Runner77]

1) I don't understand how that article came up with the 10 games. That is ELC rules, not RFA rules.

2) Nylander is a good example. He played 3 AHL seasons before the Vegas expansion draft but was exempt from the draft. He fell under the age 19 (before Dec 31) and the RFA threshold of 40 NHL games. He was a 18 year old playing in the AHL which is similar to NCAA players IMO. The only difference is no ELC for NCAA players until they turn pro. Once they turn pro, the age 19 (before Dec 31st) is the first rule you look at. Poehling turned 20 after Dec 31st so he does not burn his RFA years unless he plays 40 games.

That's how I understand it... until someone provides something that is logical and goes against it.

We don't have all of the info, I concur. However, the conclusions that are presented are endorsed by John Sedwick who checked with an NHL official. I wish we had a better understanding of the process by which they arrived at these conclusions but since we don't, I'll be satisfied knowing that Poehling can be exempted from the expansion draft.

 

[montreal]

However, when will his NCAA season end?

March 29th would be the earliest, the NCAA tournament starts on the 29th/30th, it's single game elimination and teams either start on the 29th or 30th. If his team wins (they choked last badly last year) they play the next day, if they win that game then they go on to play April 11th and if they win they end on the 13th.

 

[Runner77]

March 29th would be the earliest, the NCAA tournament starts on the 29th/30th, it's single game elimination and teams either start on the 29th or 30th. If his team wins (they choked last badly last year) they play the next day, if they win that game then they go on to play April 11th and if they win they end on the 13th.

I see that March 29th is also the earliest we can get Schuldt to join Poehling in signing with us.

 

[sampollock]

Canadiens 2017 first round pick Ryan Poehling could likely sign his contract with the Canadiens once the NCAA season is over. The 6'2" center continues to grow into his own after winning the tournament MVP at this year's World Junior Championships. He's currently got 25 points in 26 games so far this season with St. Could State and is just six points from passing his career high of 31 points in 36 games last year. Poehling could bring some much needed energy to the lineup before the playoffs without costing the Canadiens anything besides a roster spot.

 

[Runner77]

Canadiens 2017 first round pick Ryan Poehling could likely sign his contract with the Canadiens once the NCAA season is over. The 6'2" center continues to grow into his own after winning the tournament MVP at this year's World Junior Championships. He's currently got 25 points in 26 games so far this season with St. Could State and is just six points from passing his career high of 31 points in 36 games last year. Poehling could bring some much needed energy to the lineup before the playoffs without costing the Canadiens anything besides a roster spot.

You wrote that?

I know you didn't cause the word "figs" is nowhere to be found.

 

[sampollock]

You wrote that?

I know you didn't cause the word "figs" is nowhere to be found.

You wrote that?

I know you didn't cause the word "figs" is nowhere to be found.

Your right, no figs

Read it on got Habs go
Just a observation