Ryan Nugent-Hopkins

[rickyrunfar]

Anyway you spin he has been a huge letdown for a number one draft pick. He might turn out fine, but he doesn't look like a game breaker. Worth 6 million? Hell no.

 

[KlimasLoveChild]

I heard it live, it was one of the episodes this week, might have even been today. I listen to sports radio nonstop at work so it all just kind of blends in lol.

Nuge said before the season he was coming into camp in the low buck eighties. There is absolute zero chance he is playing in the 190's right now. I listened to the piece on Oilers now too. Stauffer seemed like he was grasping at straws more then anything with this theory. If anything Nuge is undersized and eating a lot of minutes with a couple hobbits on his wings. Get this guy some real hockey players on his flanks and we'll see what he can do.

 

[Raab]

Figure I'd bump the thread since I think some more discussion on RNH is due at this point.

Started the thread 16 games into his season. He had 12 points in those 16 games and was -12. At the time he was on pace for 20 goals and 60 points in 80 games. For various reasons many said they weren't yet concerned.

In his last 50 games here is his stat line:

11 goals 21 assists 32 points. (17 goal 51 point pace based on 80 games)

In comparison, everyones favourite whipping boy Sam Gagner in that same stretch has

7 goals 23 assists 30 points in 49 games.

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins has now had more than enough time to have his shoulder fully heal and get up to 100%. He is in yet another prolonged goalscoring slump which is something that has plagued him all the way since juniors. Instead of getting stronger as the season has gone on he has seemingly regressed. Frankly at this point he will be lucky to match the offensive output he had in 62 games in his rookie season in 80 games this year.

Anyone else getting as concerned as I have been for nearly the entire season? Or are people still confident in his ability to lead this team as a #1 center?

I've been concerned since the draft and people have been telling me how wrong I am.... In any case RNH will be a player it's just going to take him longer to get there. I'll go back to my Statsny comparison I gave him at the draft, he'll have a few years of scoring 70-80 points a season with two way play. Most seasons I'm guessing he'll be between 55-65 points and have some difficulties with the bigger center's in the west. In any case I wouldn't throw him away for nothing, but I do think he's expendable and shouldn't be put in the same class of player as Hall.

 

[Raab]

Anyway you spin he has been a huge letdown for a number one draft pick. He might turn out fine, but he doesn't look like a game breaker. Worth 6 million? Hell no.

He's never been a game breaker, was one of my biggest criticisms of the guy. He'd somehow put up 4 points on the night in junior and you wouldn't even notice him on the ice if you weren't looking for him. As opposed to Hall who was basically a wrecking ball in junior and you knew he'd be special.

 

[Replacement*]

Who cares if hall makes rnh better or if rnh makes hall better. There are 3 players on each forward line for a reason. The coach should be putting these players in a position to succeed even if rnh rides off of hall. We have both players on this team, might as well use them where they are producing at the highest rate.

Obviously the team cares. If one needs to put all the eggs in one basket to get Nuge going where does that leave the other lines. For too long we've been putting redundant talents on one line and then wondering why we don't have scoring depth.

Most successful clubs will put a couple offensive players together with a guy that's not a premium talent but is there to support, forecheck, play a role. Putting Nuge, Hall, Eberle out there always on the same line is fine maybe for that line, but not the club. Its a one basket approach instead of spreading the resources.

Finally, you don't draft a #1 pick center to be heavily reliant on other #1 picks. On most clubs these guys would be expected to be able to carry some of their own weight.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

This talk about his size... C'mon. Was Sakic big? Yzerman? Duchene (who also had a great rookie season and then a couple crap ones before recently getting back on track) winning any bodybuilding contests in Denver?

 

[McDoused]

He's never been a game breaker, was one of my biggest criticisms of the guy. He'd somehow put up 4 points on the night in junior and you wouldn't even notice him on the ice if you weren't looking for him. As opposed to Hall who was basically a wrecking ball in junior and you knew he'd be special.

You have no idea what you're talking about. RNH was the definition of a game breaker at the WHL level.

 

[Up the Irons]

he'll be fine. but, at least at this point, it does not appear he will be as good as Tavares. who knows, tho. if he progresses similarily to Henrik Sedin, maybe he will be.

the fact that now three 1st overalls are having difficulty progressing (Hall is doing pretty good), i think it is safe to say it is the environment they have been put in that has more than a bit to do with it.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

In other threads some video of Nuge was presented from his rookie season which was shocking in that it showed Nuge making moves, fakes, etc that I'm rarely seeing from him this year or last. As if the confidence and swagger is all gone.
I worry too that the presence of half assing it vets like Horc and Hemmer pulled a number on this players drive. That the "this is enough effort" approach taught him to cut some corners. So now rather than battling hard we see a player that looks at the opposition and figures its too hard, Oilers don't have a chance, and some going through the motions. Well, weve seen a lot of going through the motions.

Yeah, you nailed it right here.

Interesting how none of our big young talents have had a smooth transition to the NHL:

Hall- injuries, plays stupid
Eberle- regressing, no defense
RNH- regressing, injuries
Schultz- completely lost
Yakupov- completely lost

Hmmm... Did we just get unlucky? 'Picked a bad time to tank'? Tavares, MacKinnon haven't run into these problems. Stamkos did but his team inmediately fired the coaches and GMs that had ****ed up his first season.

Its absolutely criminal how this incompetent franchise has mismanaged the most important assets they have and for whom they paid such a steep price.

I get the impression that the attitude towards development is, 'throw em out there! Let em play! It worked for Gretz and Mark! What? You're injured? Well, let me and Cup rings tell you about how often Mess used to play hurt!'

 

[Replacement*]

This talk about his size... C'mon. Was Sakic big? Yzerman? Duchene (who also had a great rookie season and then a couple crap ones before recently getting back on track) winning any bodybuilding contests in Denver?

Game seems to be a little different now and it being harder to compete without size or some other intangibles. Right now Nuge is barely retaining the puck. He's not making plays because he's being easily stripped of the puck. He's not finding open areas, he's not setting up shop. He has trouble maintaining much pressure even on the PK.

Doesn't have to be size alone but this is a guy who was playing bad before the Oly break and has been even worse after. He's -6 with one secondary assist in 8GP since Oly break. This being somebody that gets ample PP time..

He's playing with a guy that scored 36goals one year, another who had 17 in an abbreviated rookie season(full season pace of close to 30 goals) and Nuge can't create ANYTHING?

Its a problem. A huge one at this point.

 

[Sloth Slothersons*]

I'm not too worried. Maybe in a 1 or 2 years I'll be. Or our team becomes really good for a long stretch, and he's still not doing anything.

 

[Replacement*]

He's never been a game breaker, was one of my biggest criticisms of the guy. He'd somehow put up 4 points on the night in junior and you wouldn't even notice him on the ice if you weren't looking for him. As opposed to Hall who was basically a wrecking ball in junior and you knew he'd be special.

Getting quiet pts isn't a criticism. Its often an indication of the kind of stealth, sneakiness, and imagination which is why I wanted RNH drafted, and why I'm concerned he's not bringing his imaginative game anymore. As if he thinks "this won't work" before trying it.

When Nuge slows the game down again and learns to take whats there and stop forcing bad percentage passes the game should improve. But somebody needs to be going through the video and helping him with that. Not just the "kid is fine, let him play through it".

Young kids need help figuring things out.

 

[Raab]

You have no idea what you're talking about. RNH was the definition of a game breaker at the WHL level.

Seeing as how I seen a few games of him live that season, I think I do. RNH has never drove the play on his line like Hall did, and never stood out like Hall. As I said you go to the game expecting to see some offensive dynamo and he wouldn't really stand out but then you look at the boxscore and he somehow would have 3 or 4 points on the night. He was and still is a very cerebral player, much in the same way as Thornton. When I think of a game breaker I think of guys like Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane, Toews, Hall, Stamkos, guys who can basically just take over a game and score at will it seems. I have never seen that from RNH.

 

[Up the Irons]

Yeah, you nailed it right here.

Interesting how none of our big young talents have had a smooth transition to the NHL:

Hall- injuries, plays stupid
Eberle- regressing, no defense
RNH- regressing, injuries
Schultz- completely lost
Yakupov- completely lost

Hmmm... Did we just get unlucky? 'Picked a bad time to tank'? Tavares, MacKinnon haven't run into these problems. Stamkos did but his team inmediately fired the coaches and GMs that had ****ed up his first season.

Its absolutely criminal how this incompetent franchise has mismanaged the most important assets they have and for whom they paid such a steep price.

I get the impression that the attitude towards development is, 'throw em out there! Let em play! It worked for Gretz and Mark! What? You're injured? Well, let me and Cup rings tell you about how often Mess used to play hurt!'

nailed it. a lack of mentoring and not a shred of real coaching/teaching to be found

 

[Raab]

Yeah, you nailed it right here.

Interesting how none of our big young talents have had a smooth transition to the NHL:

Hall- injuries, plays stupid
Eberle- regressing, no defense
RNH- regressing, injuries
Schultz- completely lost
Yakupov- completely lost

Hmmm... Did we just get unlucky? 'Picked a bad time to tank'? Tavares, MacKinnon haven't run into these problems. Stamkos did but his team inmediately fired the coaches and GMs that had ****ed up his first season.

Its absolutely criminal how this incompetent franchise has mismanaged the most important assets they have and for whom they paid such a steep price.

I get the impression that the attitude towards development is, 'throw em out there! Let em play! It worked for Gretz and Mark! What? You're injured? Well, let me and Cup rings tell you about how often Mess used to play hurt!'

I honestly don't think theres anything wrong with the way Hall transitioned he was ready. Sure he had some injuries but that happens in hockey, and the defensive play is overblown. Not to many guys are great defensively under 25, especially guys with the offensive skills Hall brings.

 

[Replacement*]

Seeing as how I seen a few games of him live that season, I think I do. RNH has never drove the play on his line like Hall did, and never stood out like Hall. As I said you go to the game expecting to see some offensive dynamo and he wouldn't really stand out but then you look at the boxscore and he somehow would have 3 or 4 points on the night. He was and still is a very cerebral player, much in the same way as Thornton. When I think of a game breaker I think of guys like Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane, Toews, Hall, Stamkos, guys who can basically just take over a game and score at will it seems. I have never seen that from RNH.

Some of the best players "don't stand out"

Brett Hull could have a 2 goals and an assist in a game and you'd think he touched the puck for an entire 15 secs.

people really overestimate what the "stand out" players like Hemsky actually create. Sometimes not a whole lot. Flashy doesn't mean ****. Effective does. Nuge can play an effective game. But he's not getting on top of what his game is at the moment. He's somehow walked away from it and like he doesn't know. Again, he needs astute direction. The kid has some ingredients and sees the ice really well when he's on.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Game seems to be a little different now and it being harder to compete without size or some other intangibles. Right now Nuge is barely retaining the puck. He's not making plays because he's being easily stripped of the puck. He's not finding open areas, he's not setting up shop. He has trouble maintaining much pressure even on the PK.

Doesn't have to be size alone but this is a guy who was playing bad before the Oly break and has been even worse after. He's -6 with one secondary assist in 8GP since Oly break. This being somebody that gets ample PP time..

He's playing with a guy that scored 36goals one year, another who had 17 in an abbreviated rookie season(full season pace of close to 30 goals) and Nuge can't create ANYTHING?

Its a problem. A huge one at this point.

Size is important but no more so than its ever been. Maybe actually less so. This is not the 90s anymore with every team wanting to load up with two or three Holik-clones.

Kane, Duchene, etc are doing just fine.

Yes, RNH is struggling right now but lots of young players do. I really wish the Oilers did more for him than just throw him to the wolves and shrug, but its not unheard of for young players to go through a bad year or two.

This player is too talented and too smart not to break through.

 

[Replacement*]

Size is important but no more so than its ever been. Maybe actually less so. This is not the 90s anymore with every team wanting to load up with two or three Holik-clones.

Kane, Duchene, etc are doing just fine.

Yes, RNH is struggling right now but lots of young players do. I really wish the Oilers did more for him than just throw him to the wolves and shrug, but its not unheard of for young players to go through a bad year or two.

This player is too talented and too smart not to break through.

Oh I definitely agree if my post wasn't clear. The key is that using whatever means the player is able to possess the puck in offensive end and be able to manage it and find open space. Whatever it takes to find open space. Gagner tends to use the waterbug approach. Works reasonably well for him and he can pivot on a dime and by time.

Nuges ideal game is to use his possession skills to draw players to him, to entice them to cover him, then to find the passing lane when they do commit. He was playing this like a young grandmaster in rookie season. Not even that he'd entice a D in and then blow past him with some fantastic moves. He was a handful.

Forever reason he's taking himself out of the games now. I worry about it because lack of confidence just isn't fleeting. In some instances it goes away. This is a guy that needs to get back on the horse that got him here. My biggest worry is similar to yours. That the club just shrugs and figures the kid will find his way. Kid needs guidance and help.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

I honestly don't think theres anything wrong with the way Hall transitioned he was ready. Sure he had some injuries but that happens in hockey, and the defensive play is overblown. Not to many guys are great defensively under 25, especially guys with the offensive skills Hall brings.

Hall is where he is in spite of, not because, of the environment that was created for him.

Great player but the list of self-induced injuries over his first few years is troubling. That, and there are still a lot of holes and bad habits in his game that no one seems to be addressing.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not bashing Hall. But it does seem that any improvements are in spite of, not because of, the Oilers.


In terms of his improvement in avoiding bad hits, it seems to me that the credit for that goes to Hall himself and not at all his team, coaches or veteran leaders... Although I have wondered in the past if its coincidence that Hall got savvy the same time Smyth showed up. 94 was always wonderful at playing hard but protecting himself. Weird what happens when you surround young players with players like that...

 

[Raab]

Getting quiet pts isn't a criticism. Its often an indication of the kind of stealth, sneakiness, and imagination which is why I wanted RNH drafted, and why I'm concerned he's not bringing his imaginative game anymore. As if he thinks "this won't work" before trying it.

When Nuge slows the game down again and learns to take whats there and stop forcing bad percentage passes the game should improve. But somebody needs to be going through the video and helping him with that. Not just the "kid is fine, let him play through it".

Young kids need help figuring things out.

Quiet points are alright, but when your picking 1s overall I want a guy who can take over games. In all fairness though there really wasn't anyone like that in RNH's draft year. Which is one of the reasons I was on the Couturier train, was thinking he might at least have the ability to take over games defensively and shut down guys like Crosby, Malkin, Kopitar, Datsyuk, etc... while still putting up a few points. The problem with the 2011 draft though is that some posters were so enamoured with RNH they thought he would be the second coming of Gretzky, when really there were no standout players. I tried to temper people expectations and was told I have no clue what I'm talking about even though I watched the guy quite a number of times. We picked the wrong year to grab our #1 center as RNH at best will maybe be a top 10-15 center in the league IMO. He maybe breaks the top 10 but I have a hard time seeing it with the talent coming up and the guys in front of him.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Oh I definitely agree if my post wasn't clear. The key is that using whatever means the player is able to possess the puck in offensive end and be able to manage it and find open space. Whatever it takes to find open space. Gagner tends to use the waterbug approach. Works reasonably well for him and he can pivot on a dime and by time.

Nuges ideal game is to use his possession skills to draw players to him, to entice them to cover him, then to find the passing lane when they do commit. He was playing this like a young grandmaster in rookie season. Not even that he'd entice a D in and then blow past him with some fantastic moves. He was a handful.

Forever reason he's taking himself out of the games now. I worry about it because lack of confidence just isn't fleeting. In some instances it goes away. This is a guy that needs to get back on the horse that got him here. My biggest worry is similar to yours. That the club just shrugs and figures the kid will find his way. Kid needs guidance and help.

Yeah, we're completely on the same page here. I agree with everything you've said.

A big, physical winger would do wonders for RNH. Its a lot easier to play that, 'here's the puck, come try and take it from me' style if you've got a guy who can go get in the corners.

 

[Raab]

Some of the best players "don't stand out"

Brett Hull could have a 2 goals and an assist in a game and you'd think he touched the puck for an entire 15 secs.

people really overestimate what the "stand out" players like Hemsky actually create. Sometimes not a whole lot. Flashy doesn't mean ****. Effective does. Nuge can play an effective game. But he's not getting on top of what his game is at the moment. He's somehow walked away from it and like he doesn't know. Again, he needs astute direction. The kid has some ingredients and sees the ice really well when he's on.

Most of those players have size on RNH (Getzlaf, Thornton) and are able to make player pay if they challenge them along the boards as it opens up another guy somewhere else. Right now if RNH is challenged along the boards he's easily pushed off the puck, and its out of the zone. If he wants to play a cerebral game at this level he needs strength, but he also needs to make quicker reads on the play and be moving the puck.

 

[Raab]

Hall is where he is in spite of, not because, of the environment that was created for him.

Great player but the list of self-induced injuries over his first few years is troubling. That, and there are still a lot of holes and bad habits in his game that no one seems to be addressing.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not bashing Hall. But it does seem that any improvements are in spite of, not because of, the Oilers.


In terms of his improvement in avoiding bad hits, it seems to me that the credit for that goes to Hall himself and not at all his team, coaches or veteran leaders... Although I have wondered in the past if its coincidence that Hall got savvy the same time Smyth showed up. 94 was always wonderful at playing hard but protecting himself. Weird what happens when you surround young players with players like that...

O, I agree. I been harping since 2011 that Tambo should have been bringing in more capable vets like every other successful rebuild has, but what do I know.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Most of those players have size on RNH (Getzlaf, Thornton) and are able to make player pay if they challenge them along the boards as it opens up another guy somewhere else. Right now if RNH is challenged along the boards he's easily pushed off the puck, and its out of the zone. If he wants to play a cerebral game at this level he needs strength, but he also needs to make quicker reads on the play and be moving the puck.

I think those things will come.

Anyone remember what Datsyuk looked like his first few years in the league?

 

[Wheathead]

This team hasn't developed it's own, decent prospect since Smyth.

Why are we expecting Hall, Eberle, RNH and Yakupov to turn into game breakers? They haven't gotten any help since they've been on the club.

This club can't even really develop #1 overall picks. That tells me something.