Value of: Rust and Dumoulin

[Boondock]

Zucker,Dumo for Miller,Virtanen,2nd

you must of accidently hit "post reply" before you finished typing what else the Pens were adding.

 

[ownal]

you must of accidently hit "post reply" before you finished typing what else the Pens were adding.

Rust & Dumo for Miller is just as crazy. Both would get a 1st + prospect & Rust would get a roster player on top of that.

 

[Boondock]

Rust & Dumo for Miller is just as crazy. Both would get a 1st + prospect & Rust would get a roster player on top of that.

Well good job with responding to crazy with crazy - mission accomplished.

 

[ownal]

Well good job with responding to crazy with crazy - mission accomplished.

I never asserted mine was crazy. I would say maybe without the 2nd is debatable. Both are on sweetheart contracts as well.

 

[Boondock]

I never asserted mine was crazy. I would say maybe without the 2nd is debatable. Both are on sweetheart contracts as well.

I would have no interest in Zucker. At $5.5 over the next 3 seasons he has negative value to a Canuck team that already has over 30% of its total cap space occupied by the 4th line, press box or Utica. I would honestly rather keep Virtanen and hope he rebounds to the 20ish goal scorer he looked like last season. I don't see Zucker's contract getting better as he moves into his 30's. At least JV is 24 and only has 1 more year on his deal. If the Canucks are desperate for a 20goal/40 pt winger they will re-sign Pearson for far less than the 5.5 Zucker is making. I also wouldn't trade Miller for Dumo 1 for 1.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dumoulin plays on Pitts top pairing, that doesn't make him a top pairing dman. He has 1 PP point in the past 3 seasons, he is a good complimentary player but he would be a 2nd pairing guy if he was asked to carry the pairing. Jordie Benn plays with Hughes in Vancouver - this doesn't make him worth a top line winger. I like Dumo, I like his defensive game and his reach/size, his contract is very good. With all that said he isn't going to get a player that is younger and just went over a point per game on the Canucks top line.

f***ing yikes if you're judging defensemen based on how many powerplay points they get

 

[Boondock]

f***ing yikes if you're judging defensemen based on how many powerplay points they get

Already responded to this a few posts back. Just 1 example of some overall deficiencies that prevent a player from having top pairing value. I see Dumo similarly to how I viewed Tanev for the Canucks. Could compliment a top pairing, but lacked all the tools required to carry a top pairing. As I said before, Benn plays with Hughes, Benn - not a top pairing d-man. Not sure why this concept is difficult to understand.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Already responded to this a few posts back. Just 1t example of some overall deficiencies that prevent a player from having top pairing value. I see Dumo similarly to how I viewed Tanev for the Canucks. Could compliment a top pairing, but lacked all the tools required to carry a top pairing. As I said before, Benn plays with Hughes, Benn - not a top pairing d-man. Not sure why this concept is difficult to understand.

Has Benn won 2 Stanley Cups while playing in a top pair role against the best of the other teams?

 

[Boondock]

Has Benn won 2 Stanley Cups while playing in a top pair role against the best of the other teams?

We'll have to agree to disagree. Would be pretty dumb to trade a top pairing dman making $4 a season.

 

[HotDish]

Penguins should definitely tear it down. If i were them I would be trying to shoot for a top 5 draft pick this year.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Why?
Bryan Rust WAS exactly Jared Mcann at McCann's age...no, he was actually a few years older than McCann.
Then Sully came along and Rust became his poster boy for favoritism.
The stats between the two were pretty much equal and then Sully glued Rust to either Crosby or Malkin and added an additional 6 or 7 minutes of average ice time to what Rust had during his first couple seasons in the NHL and even 3+ minutes more than his previous season high in average mins per game. And when those 3+, 6 or 7 minutes (as well as the rest of his minutes minus special teams of course) are always next to Sid or Geno then of course his stats are going to take a large bump.
Sullivan was hell bent on Rust being a success and nothing was ever going to stand in the way of that happening.
This isn't to say that Rust sucks IMO, far from it. He has developed into a very good 2-way player and a reliable complementary scorer.
Having said that, his scoring is always going to be reliant on having someone else create that offense. He can't do that on his own and he won't be the catalyst for offense on a line.
People rip on how McCann finished last season but at the same time they seem to forget Rust went 30 games with a single goal only 2 seasons ago.

The major differences between the two have nothing to do with talent and everything to do with opportunities and ice time. And the stark contrast in how Sullivan has handled their development is one of the major reasons why I don't like Sullivan. He has his favorites who are given an abundance of chances and set up for success with ice time and prime linemates and it lasts years with these players given these chances.
While others those opportunities are few and far between and any momentum they begin to get is jerked out from under them...usually for Sullivan to give another opportunity to one of his favorites as if he is looking for a reason for one guy to make a mistake so he has an excuse to put a favorite into a position that weakens the team...and with some disastrous consequences (see benching McCann in game 4 in favor of Sam Lafferty who promptly was responsible for Montreal's first goal on his first shift).
McCann...I mean wow. Not only no chance to develop comfort or consistency on a line, but going into his 3rd season with the team and Sullivan can't even decide on a position for the guy. If you pay close attention, one might be forgiven in thinking that the coach was actively trying to sabotage his development as he's done everything the wrong way.
Look at this year for example. The first few games both statistical and in analytics, McCann, Tanev, Jakowski were dominant. They were the best line and that advantage was our best advantage vs their opponents. And our team has desperately wanted and needed to establish a 3rd line for years. That line showed both results and promise so of course Sullivan pulled it apart after 4 or 5 games for absolutely no reason to play musical chairs with the bottom 6 and now the team is just as unsettled as it has been since winning the cup in their bottom 6.

Still, McCann and Rust are remarkably similar stats wise during similar places in their respective timeline. And McCann has the Tho Rust was playing 16 minutes per game during those seasons and McCann 15. The huge jump in points for Rust coincided with the huge jump in time on ice where he played an average of 19:46 last season (top 30 amongst forwards) and is up there again this year.
Whereas Sullivan is playing McCann at ELEVEN minutes this season. That's a full 4 minutes less than his average of the 15 minutes McCann averaged in each of his first 2 seasons in Pitt. And again, McCann has played well. During the first 5 games he was playing extremely well before Sully did his annual jerking players off lines and bottom 6 shuffle for no reason. His play certainly hasn't warranted a 4 minutes cut in time on ice. But again, this is a major flaw of Sullivan's that nobody mentions. To prove this point, Malkin was one of the best forwards in the league last year despite always getting the "leftover" wingers...there were several games last season where Dom Simon, a guy who can't even get into Calgary's lineup and who's been mostly a healthy scratch this year, saw more ice time than Geno. Sometimes 3 or 4 minutes more while Geno was top 3 in pts per 60.
Or the fact that in this years season opening loss to Philly guess which forward led the Penguins in ice time?
Evan Rodrigues. Not Crosby, not Malkin or even Guentzel. Not the above mentioned Rust or any of the 3rd line guys who were responsible for the teams only offense that night.
Nope. Instead it was a guy making league minimum who was a healthy scratch for the last time the Pens took the ice in losing to Montréal in 4 games...a guy who was scratched for all 4 of those games.
Speaking of Geno/Rust, when E-Rod got hurt, despite the obvious chemistry and how Geno obviously helped Rust elevated his game to a new level, Sullivan takes Rust from Geno's line to place him with Sid and continues to force the duo of Zucker/Geno together despite the obvious lack of fit since day 1. Guys like Geno and Jared are getting obviously Spronged (or Cole'd/Kessel'd if you prefer) because Sullivan allows bias to dictate or influence lineup calls...often blatant in his "earn your opportunities" philosophy he often quotes yet there's very little evidence of.
I personally think the players notice (you'd be blind not to) and are sick of it. They see personal grudges or favoritism affecting the bottom line and see the incompetence. Pascal confirmed such a couple seasons back and how much worse is it with the passage of time.
As for Rust and McCann, I give Jared credit for producing despite the 4 minutes of ice time slashed from him. And for also having the talent and ability to create the offense for his line. Rust doesn't have such an ability yet to his credit, unlike Sully's other favorites, Rust thus far has taken full advantage of his opportunities.
Still, I can't help but wonder how much better off this team could be with some consistency throughout the lineup from the coaches. And I have to laugh for those who seem to be of the opinion that he's hovering around the untouchable status.

Does your enter key not work?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

This is kinda derailed

I just wanna know what comparable forwards opposing fans think would fit a 1 for 1 trade with Dumo

 

[Darren McCord]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Would be pretty dumb to trade a top pairing dman making $4 a season.

Which is why they most likely dont move him, but its moving from a position of strength. The Pens are super deep on the Left side for many years. Dumo is the oldest even if he is only 29, so he makes the most sense to move. POJ has prove he can take his spot and Riikola is great depth.

Dumo
Petts
Matheson
Poj
Riikola

 

[elitepete]

There probably could be a discussion around Pettersson. Marino is definitely a no-go and Guentzel is probably the same unless you're okay with someone like Boeser or Miller coming back. Even then his chemistry with Sid likely makes him more valuable to us anyway

What’s the price on Pettersson?

 

[LiffLaff]

What’s the price on Pettersson?

Probably a comperable young forward with some upside.

 

[elitepete]

Probably a comperable young forward with some upside.

Gaudette?

 

[LiffLaff]

Gaudette?

While I do like Gaudette, I think you'd have to add, as Pety has shown he can handle a top 4 role, pluss you'd be over the cap with a move like that i think. Would you add Virtanen?

 

[elitepete]

While I do like Gaudette, I think you'd have to add, as Pety has shown he can handle a top 4 role, pluss you'd be over the cap with a move like that i think. Would you add Virtanen?

I would if the Penguins threw in a 3rd.

Or Gaudette+Motte for Pettersson

 

[LiffLaff]

I would if the Penguins threw in a 3rd.

Or Gaudette+Motte for Pettersson

I don't think Hextall is looking to move picks, as our prospect pool is as shallow as a puddle on a sunny day

 

[elitepete]

I don't think Hextall is looking to move picks, as our prospect pool is as shallow as a puddle on a sunny day

Would you do Gaudette+Motte then?

Juolevi would also available, but I’m not sure I would trade him with Gaudette for Pettersson.

 

[LiffLaff]

Would you do Gaudette+Motte then?

Juolevi would also available, but I’m not sure I would trade him with Gaudette for Pettersson.

No, Motte doesn't really move the needle for me. We don't have a 3rd this year either, so if it had to be included for Virtanen, it would have to be a 2022 pick..

 

[elitepete]

No, Motte doesn't really move the needle for me. We don't have a 3rd this year either, so if it had to be included for Virtanen, it would have to be a 2022 pick..

A 2022 pick is fine with me.

 

[Habs10025]

At worst Dumoulin is a 2nd pairing LD and Rust since last season is a ppg player 71 - 33 - 38 - 71 pts .
Hextall/ Pittsburgh won't and shouldn't trade either player.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Dumoulin plays on Pitts top pairing, that doesn't make him a top pairing dman. He has 1 PP point in the past 3 seasons, he is a good complimentary player but he would be a 2nd pairing guy if he was asked to carry the pairing. Jordie Benn plays with Hughes in Vancouver - this doesn't make him worth a top line winger. I like Dumo, I like his defensive game and his reach/size, his contract is very good. With all that said he isn't going to get a player that is younger and just went over a point per game on the Canucks top line.

Dumoulin carried Ron Hainsey to a Stanley Cup.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Which is why they most likely dont move him, but its moving from a position of strength. The Pens are super deep on the Left side for many years. Dumo is the oldest even if he is only 29, so he makes the most sense to move. POJ has prove he can take his spot and Riikola is great depth.

Dumo
Petts
Matheson
Poj
Riikola

POJ has played 12 games, that's not proving much of anything at this point. He did handle himself fairly well, but still. 12 games.