Value of: Rust and Dumoulin

[n8]

hypothetically, if the Penguins were to go into a rebuild/retool, what would other teams offer for one or both of these players. Rust has shown that his last season wasn’t just a one hit wonder and has become a star. He brings almost ppg offense with elite two way play. he really is pittsburgh’s best play driver. dumoulin is just a steady #3 dman. so shoot.

why the hell would they trade these players then?

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

why the hell would they trade these players then?

No reason to trade Rust.

They do have a reason to trade Dumoulin or Pettersson though since they have four LD deserving to start. Olivier-Joseph has emerged and Matheson is doing pretty well.

 

[Jerkbait]

No reason to trade Rust.

They do have a reason to trade Dumoulin or Pettersson though since they have four LD deserving to start. Olivier-Joseph has emerged and Matheson is doing pretty well.

This all depends on the next 5 to 10 games. With the pens knocking on the playoff door and wash stumbling they probably feel they gave a chance. If jarry can continue decent play and they ever get malkin going they may. If the bottom falls off look for dumo and rust to be 2 of the players shipped out. There is no reason to keep rust if they throw in the towel. Hos value is sky high and there would be a lineup of teams interested. Oilers anyone ??

 

[SEALBound]

A little on the pricey side I would think . I mean if matheson is pushing him out of the lineup somethings not adding up here .

He's a 29 year old top pairing dman on a good value contract. Pricy? Lol. UFA dmen that are not has good have gone for similar.

 

[Jerkbait]

He's a 29 year old top pairing dman on a good value contract. Pricy? Lol. UFA dmen that are not has good have gone for similar.

Make no mistake dumo was a first pair shutdown type D. He had several good years. His play this season hasn't been good ( when in lineup). He could regain some form no doubt but he isnt quote in the same tier as before. Having said thay Marino has struggled at times this year just like petterson. Letang has been awful up up this week. Matheson has strung together some good games. In all honesty ceci has been the most consistent pens D up to now.

 

[elitepete]

I would have interest in both of them from a Canucks pov. But I would have even more interest in Guentzal, Marino, and Pettersson. Especially Marino.

 

[Beauner]

I would have interest in both of them from a Canucks pov. But I would have even more interest in Guentzal, Marino, and Pettersson. Especially Marino.

There probably could be a discussion around Pettersson. Marino is definitely a no-go and Guentzel is probably the same unless you're okay with someone like Boeser or Miller coming back. Even then his chemistry with Sid likely makes him more valuable to us anyway

 

[glenbuis]

He's a 29 year old top pairing dman on a good value contract. Pricy? Lol. UFA dmen that are not has good have gone for similar.

I’m just not getting the reason for dealing him than . Not playing as well as he has in the past . Did something set him back ? Like you said he’s a 29 year old top pairing defenseman and he’s making 4.1 but your gonna keep Ceci and matheson ? Something smells

 

[Gurglesons]

I’m just not getting the reason for dealing him than . Not playing as well as he has in the past . Did something set him back ? Like you said he’s a 29 year old top pairing defenseman and he’s making 4.1 but your gonna keep Ceci and matheson ? Something smells

Currently our LD situation is..

Dumoulin
Matheson
Pettersson
POJ
Riikola

All of the bottom four have proven to be 16-20 minute LD guys. The Penguins want to shake up their roster and Dumoulin is one of the few pieces that is at an age where he is going to start declining potentially, we have an abundance of talent behind him, and is a place we can shave off significant cap if we replace him with Riikola or POJ in either a bottom pairing role or whatever.

 

[glenbuis]

Currently our LD situation is..

Dumoulin
Matheson
Pettersson
POJ
Riikola

All of the bottom four have proven to be 16-20 minute LD guys. The Penguins want to shake up their roster and Dumoulin is one of the few pieces that is at an age where he is going to start declining potentially, we have an abundance of talent behind him, and is a place we can shave off significant cap if we replace him with Riikola or POJ in either a bottom pairing role or whatever.

Was he injured or something that led to his level of play dropping . Seems to have lost some of his lustre ?

 

[Gurglesons]

Was he injured or something that led to his level of play dropping . Seems to have lost some of his lustre ?

Dumoulin has had a few lower body injuries. He's still a very solid top pairing D.

The fact is he is part of a core that a certain sect of PIT fans want to see us move on from. Same reason we moved out Hornqvist and Kessel. We don't want to end up holding anyone but Crosby, Malkin and Letang when the dance stops.

You have to realize that PIT has been basically swept in the playoffs twice in a row for two years. Why would we keep anyone, but Crosby and Malkin.

 

[glenbuis]

Dumoulin has had a few lower body injuries. He's still a very solid top pairing D.

The fact is he is part of a core that a certain sect of PIT fans want to see us move on from. Same reason we moved out Hornqvist and Kessel. We don't want to end up holding anyone but Crosby, Malkin and Letang when the dance stops.

You have to realize that PIT has been basically swept in the playoffs twice in a row for two years. Why would we keep anyone, but Crosby and Malkin.

I guess . If I owned that team I’d be sending malkin packing before it’s to late . Doesn’t seem like the hunger is still there to me

 

[Will Hunting]

I’m just not getting the reason for dealing him than . Not playing as well as he has in the past . Did something set him back ? Like you said he’s a 29 year old top pairing defenseman and he’s making 4.1 but your gonna keep Ceci and matheson ? Something smells

Matheson has been excellent. Excellent. Building chemistry with Marino and playing 24 minutes a night. I wouldn´t trade Dumoulin, because we still want to win and when he is back we could have two great pairs. Even 3rd pair with POJ/Pettersson/Ceci is a strength. But the point is that we have a logjam at D and if the right offer comes, then nobody is off the books other than Marino.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

nobody is off the books other than Marino.

We'd be crazy to trade Olivier-Joseph. Matheson too, since we just acquired him and he's performing well.

 

[stardog]

Wouldn't be shocked to see Dumo moved, but I can't see Rust going anywhere, now McCann on the other hand..

Why?
Bryan Rust WAS exactly Jared Mcann at McCann's age...no, he was actually a few years older than McCann.
Then Sully came along and Rust became his poster boy for favoritism.
The stats between the two were pretty much equal and then Sully glued Rust to either Crosby or Malkin and added an additional 6 or 7 minutes of average ice time to what Rust had during his first couple seasons in the NHL and even 3+ minutes more than his previous season high in average mins per game. And when those 3+, 6 or 7 minutes (as well as the rest of his minutes minus special teams of course) are always next to Sid or Geno then of course his stats are going to take a large bump.
Sullivan was hell bent on Rust being a success and nothing was ever going to stand in the way of that happening.
This isn't to say that Rust sucks IMO, far from it. He has developed into a very good 2-way player and a reliable complementary scorer.
Having said that, his scoring is always going to be reliant on having someone else create that offense. He can't do that on his own and he won't be the catalyst for offense on a line.
People rip on how McCann finished last season but at the same time they seem to forget Rust went 30 games with a single goal only 2 seasons ago.

The major differences between the two have nothing to do with talent and everything to do with opportunities and ice time. And the stark contrast in how Sullivan has handled their development is one of the major reasons why I don't like Sullivan. He has his favorites who are given an abundance of chances and set up for success with ice time and prime linemates and it lasts years with these players given these chances.
While others those opportunities are few and far between and any momentum they begin to get is jerked out from under them...usually for Sullivan to give another opportunity to one of his favorites as if he is looking for a reason for one guy to make a mistake so he has an excuse to put a favorite into a position that weakens the team...and with some disastrous consequences (see benching McCann in game 4 in favor of Sam Lafferty who promptly was responsible for Montreal's first goal on his first shift).
McCann...I mean wow. Not only no chance to develop comfort or consistency on a line, but going into his 3rd season with the team and Sullivan can't even decide on a position for the guy. If you pay close attention, one might be forgiven in thinking that the coach was actively trying to sabotage his development as he's done everything the wrong way.
Look at this year for example. The first few games both statistical and in analytics, McCann, Tanev, Jakowski were dominant. They were the best line and that advantage was our best advantage vs their opponents. And our team has desperately wanted and needed to establish a 3rd line for years. That line showed both results and promise so of course Sullivan pulled it apart after 4 or 5 games for absolutely no reason to play musical chairs with the bottom 6 and now the team is just as unsettled as it has been since winning the cup in their bottom 6.

Still, McCann and Rust are remarkably similar stats wise during similar places in their respective timeline. And McCann has the Tho Rust was playing 16 minutes per game during those seasons and McCann 15. The huge jump in points for Rust coincided with the huge jump in time on ice where he played an average of 19:46 last season (top 30 amongst forwards) and is up there again this year.
Whereas Sullivan is playing McCann at ELEVEN minutes this season. That's a full 4 minutes less than his average of the 15 minutes McCann averaged in each of his first 2 seasons in Pitt. And again, McCann has played well. During the first 5 games he was playing extremely well before Sully did his annual jerking players off lines and bottom 6 shuffle for no reason. His play certainly hasn't warranted a 4 minutes cut in time on ice. But again, this is a major flaw of Sullivan's that nobody mentions. To prove this point, Malkin was one of the best forwards in the league last year despite always getting the "leftover" wingers...there were several games last season where Dom Simon, a guy who can't even get into Calgary's lineup and who's been mostly a healthy scratch this year, saw more ice time than Geno. Sometimes 3 or 4 minutes more while Geno was top 3 in pts per 60.
Or the fact that in this years season opening loss to Philly guess which forward led the Penguins in ice time?
Evan Rodrigues. Not Crosby, not Malkin or even Guentzel. Not the above mentioned Rust or any of the 3rd line guys who were responsible for the teams only offense that night.
Nope. Instead it was a guy making league minimum who was a healthy scratch for the last time the Pens took the ice in losing to Montréal in 4 games...a guy who was scratched for all 4 of those games.
Speaking of Geno/Rust, when E-Rod got hurt, despite the obvious chemistry and how Geno obviously helped Rust elevated his game to a new level, Sullivan takes Rust from Geno's line to place him with Sid and continues to force the duo of Zucker/Geno together despite the obvious lack of fit since day 1. Guys like Geno and Jared are getting obviously Spronged (or Cole'd/Kessel'd if you prefer) because Sullivan allows bias to dictate or influence lineup calls...often blatant in his "earn your opportunities" philosophy he often quotes yet there's very little evidence of.
I personally think the players notice (you'd be blind not to) and are sick of it. They see personal grudges or favoritism affecting the bottom line and see the incompetence. Pascal confirmed such a couple seasons back and how much worse is it with the passage of time.
As for Rust and McCann, I give Jared credit for producing despite the 4 minutes of ice time slashed from him. And for also having the talent and ability to create the offense for his line. Rust doesn't have such an ability yet to his credit, unlike Sully's other favorites, Rust thus far has taken full advantage of his opportunities.
Still, I can't help but wonder how much better off this team could be with some consistency throughout the lineup from the coaches. And I have to laugh for those who seem to be of the opinion that he's hovering around the untouchable status.

 

[Beauner]

Why?
Bryan Rust WAS exactly Jared Mcann at McCann's age...no, he was actually a few years older than McCann.
Then Sully came along and Rust became his poster boy for favoritism.
The stats between the two were pretty much equal and then Sully glued Rust to either Crosby or Malkin and added an additional 6 or 7 minutes of average ice time to what Rust had during his first couple seasons in the NHL and even 3+ minutes more than his previous season high in average mins per game. And when those 3+, 6 or 7 minutes (as well as the rest of his minutes minus special teams of course) are always next to Sid or Geno then of course his stats are going to take a large bump.
Sullivan was hell bent on Rust being a success and nothing was ever going to stand in the way of that happening.
This isn't to say that Rust sucks IMO, far from it. He has developed into a very good 2-way player and a reliable complementary scorer.
Having said that, his scoring is always going to be reliant on having someone else create that offense. He can't do that on his own and he won't be the catalyst for offense on a line.
People rip on how McCann finished last season but at the same time they seem to forget Rust went 30 games with a single goal only 2 seasons ago.

The major differences between the two have nothing to do with talent and everything to do with opportunities and ice time. And the stark contrast in how Sullivan has handled their development is one of the major reasons why I don't like Sullivan. He has his favorites who are given an abundance of chances and set up for success with ice time and prime linemates and it lasts years with these players given these chances.
While others those opportunities are few and far between and any momentum they begin to get is jerked out from under them...usually for Sullivan to give another opportunity to one of his favorites as if he is looking for a reason for one guy to make a mistake so he has an excuse to put a favorite into a position that weakens the team...and with some disastrous consequences (see benching McCann in game 4 in favor of Sam Lafferty who promptly was responsible for Montreal's first goal on his first shift).
McCann...I mean wow. Not only no chance to develop comfort or consistency on a line, but going into his 3rd season with the team and Sullivan can't even decide on a position for the guy. If you pay close attention, one might be forgiven in thinking that the coach was actively trying to sabotage his development as he's done everything the wrong way.
Look at this year for example. The first few games both statistical and in analytics, McCann, Tanev, Jakowski were dominant. They were the best line and that advantage was our best advantage vs their opponents. And our team has desperately wanted and needed to establish a 3rd line for years. That line showed both results and promise so of course Sullivan pulled it apart after 4 or 5 games for absolutely no reason to play musical chairs with the bottom 6 and now the team is just as unsettled as it has been since winning the cup in their bottom 6.

Still, McCann and Rust are remarkably similar stats wise during similar places in their respective timeline. And McCann has the Tho Rust was playing 16 minutes per game during those seasons and McCann 15. The huge jump in points for Rust coincided with the huge jump in time on ice where he played an average of 19:46 last season (top 30 amongst forwards) and is up there again this year.
Whereas Sullivan is playing McCann at ELEVEN minutes this season. That's a full 4 minutes less than his average of the 15 minutes McCann averaged in each of his first 2 seasons in Pitt. And again, McCann has played well. During the first 5 games he was playing extremely well before Sully did his annual jerking players off lines and bottom 6 shuffle for no reason. His play certainly hasn't warranted a 4 minutes cut in time on ice. But again, this is a major flaw of Sullivan's that nobody mentions. To prove this point, Malkin was one of the best forwards in the league last year despite always getting the "leftover" wingers...there were several games last season where Dom Simon, a guy who can't even get into Calgary's lineup and who's been mostly a healthy scratch this year, saw more ice time than Geno. Sometimes 3 or 4 minutes more while Geno was top 3 in pts per 60.
Or the fact that in this years season opening loss to Philly guess which forward led the Penguins in ice time?
Evan Rodrigues. Not Crosby, not Malkin or even Guentzel. Not the above mentioned Rust or any of the 3rd line guys who were responsible for the teams only offense that night.
Nope. Instead it was a guy making league minimum who was a healthy scratch for the last time the Pens took the ice in losing to Montréal in 4 games...a guy who was scratched for all 4 of those games.
Speaking of Geno/Rust, when E-Rod got hurt, despite the obvious chemistry and how Geno obviously helped Rust elevated his game to a new level, Sullivan takes Rust from Geno's line to place him with Sid and continues to force the duo of Zucker/Geno together despite the obvious lack of fit since day 1. Guys like Geno and Jared are getting obviously Spronged (or Cole'd/Kessel'd if you prefer) because Sullivan allows bias to dictate or influence lineup calls...often blatant in his "earn your opportunities" philosophy he often quotes yet there's very little evidence of.
I personally think the players notice (you'd be blind not to) and are sick of it. They see personal grudges or favoritism affecting the bottom line and see the incompetence. Pascal confirmed such a couple seasons back and how much worse is it with the passage of time.
As for Rust and McCann, I give Jared credit for producing despite the 4 minutes of ice time slashed from him. And for also having the talent and ability to create the offense for his line. Rust doesn't have such an ability yet to his credit, unlike Sully's other favorites, Rust thus far has taken full advantage of his opportunities.
Still, I can't help but wonder how much better off this team could be with some consistency throughout the lineup from the coaches. And I have to laugh for those who seem to be of the opinion that he's hovering around the untouchable status.

Thats a lot of words to say "I've never seen Jared McCann play before"

 

[SEALBound]

Thats a lot of words to say "I've never seen Jared McCann play before"

Nah, that's not exactly fair as he does raise some good points.

I think to sum it up - McCann could have a Rust like breakout in production if placed in a similar role as Rust. I don't think that's unreasonable to suggest. Perhaps the argument would be more around likelihood for it to happen. McCann did play decent with Sid and Geno when in the top 6 but I think more often than not, got put back in the bottom 6 due to depth.

 

[Gurglesons]

Thats a lot of words to say "I've never seen Jared McCann play before"

The Penguins fan hatred of Jared McCann is one of the more bizarre things I’ve seen for a team that says it’s desperately needing defensively sound, offensively talented bottom six forwards.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I would have interest in both of them from a Canucks pov. But I would have even more interest in Guentzal, Marino, and Pettersson. Especially Marino.

Pettersson maybe, but Guentzel and Marino aren`t going anywhere IMO
Even Pettersson, I`m pretty sure Dumo is the D they would like to move out rather than lose him to Seattle

 

[Beauner]

The Penguins fan hatred of Jared McCann is one of the more bizarre things I’ve seen for a team that says it’s desperately needing defensively sound, offensively talented bottom six forwards.

I've never once said I hated McCann. I think he's a great bottom 6 option for the Penguins. But acting like he'd replicate Rust's production if he was granted top 6 minutes is quite the leap

 

[Boondock]

Topline winger for a top pairing dman...shocking trade!

Dumoulin plays on Pitts top pairing, that doesn't make him a top pairing dman. He has 1 PP point in the past 3 seasons, he is a good complimentary player but he would be a 2nd pairing guy if he was asked to carry the pairing. Jordie Benn plays with Hughes in Vancouver - this doesn't make him worth a top line winger. I like Dumo, I like his defensive game and his reach/size, his contract is very good. With all that said he isn't going to get a player that is younger and just went over a point per game on the Canucks top line.

 

[Unbiased Fan]

Rust and Dumo for JT Miller

 

[wej20]

Dumoulin plays on Pitts top pairing, that doesn't make him a top pairing dman. He has 1 PP point in the past 3 seasons, he is a good complimentary player but he would be a 2nd pairing guy if he was asked to carry the pairing. Jordie Benn plays with Hughes in Vancouver - this doesn't make him worth a top line winger. I like Dumo, I like his defensive game and his reach/size, his contract is very good. With all that said he isn't going to get a player that is younger and just went over a point per game on the Canucks top line.

He's a defensive dman, why would he have points on the PP? He's a minute munching top pairing dmen who can play 21+ minute a night, PK and go against the opposition's best line. Obviously you get the best out of him by playing him with a more offensively talented player but he can skate and move the puck well enough that he's not a hinderance offensively.

 

[Boondock]

He's a defensive dman, why would he have points on the PP?

To be a true top pairing dman you need to be able to play both sides of the puck. Top pairing guys (or ones you are looking for top pairing value in a trade) need to be able to contribute at EV, PK and PP - this is why they are so valuable. I understand Dumo is a defensive dman, but his inability to play at a top pairing level during certain aspects of the game limit his potential. I therefore don't think he carries the value of top pairing dman. Similar to the way Tanev was so valued by Canucks over the years but he never truly reached top pairing because he lacked the ability's to produce top pairing point totals (injuries too).

 

[ownal]

Rust and Dumo for JT Miller

Zucker,Dumo for Miller,Virtanen,2nd