Russia U20 National Team - WJC-2018

Discussion in 'Russia' started by Caser, Jan 16, 2017.

  1. Yakushev72 Registered User

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    They are not waiting that long. They are leaving at 16 ands 17, long before they could skate a regular shift in the KHL or VHL. I think it is the lure of the big money in the NHL. Their agents tell them that they are better off playing in the CHL if they want a career in the NHL.
     
  2. Yakushev72 Registered User

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    That ignores the gross underdevelopment of the Russian youth system. The ratio of rinks between Canada and Russia is 6:1. (same ratio for the USA). This when the Russian population is 4 times the size of Canada. The ratio of qualified coaches is the same. Without rinks and coaches, you can't play and learn hockey.
     
  3. MaxV Registered User

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    Well then why are you guys complaining about losing to USA in a close game.

    Have them build 6x as many ice rinks and they'll dominate.

    I bring up the same thing I have multiple times. You won't see instant success because Russian hockey program didn't instantly recover from financial ruin in the 90s.

    What you are still seeing is the by-product of hockey program that just started to rise to its feet.

    And you are seeing Dmitry Kugryshevs, Evgeny Grachevs and Maxim Goncharovs turning into Vlad Tarasenko, Nikita Kucherov and Mikhail Sergachev. Slowly.

    Ok, seriously, am I the only one old enough to remember what happened in the 90s?! Pure chaos.
     
  4. Fantomas Registered User

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    It's 2018 and we are still blaming the 90s? Gosh let's milk that for another 10 years, shall we.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  5. MaxV Registered User

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    A spike in investment benefits those that will see it's FULL impact FROM THE BEGINNING.

    Meaning after the funds are first introduced, after the infrastructure is already built, after the right personnel are hired, the generation that first enters THAT environment as 5-year-olds.

    That happened very recently.
     
  6. MaxV Registered User

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    This stuff takes time, decades really.

    What do you want me to say? I wish it was faster.

    Football program is also starting to show signs of life. Starting...
     
  7. Fantomas Registered User

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    Investments in what? No one is really doubting the existence of money flows in Russian hockey. The real question though is about how this money is being used, and whether faith in privatized funding - and its inevitable bottom line of profit-earning - is justified.

    I really do not see much overlap in interests between the KHL as a business and player development. It's like apples and oranges. The KHL will make money with clubs signing guys like Steve Moses to contracts. But with prospects you need patience and a belief in something outside of that bottom line.

    Take a prospect like Andrei Svechnikov. If he becomes a great NHLer this would be great news for Russian player development. But it will in no way benefit businessmen who make their money off the KHL. So I don't get why we're looking to them to be sensitive to the matters of player development.

    Maybe I am missing something, so please explain it to me. And while you are at it, explain to me what incentives are in place to bring back the U18 team in the MHL and what incentives are in place to improve the lives and playing conditions of young players in general?
     
  8. MaxV Registered User

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    If growth of KHL (and it's teams) is an ultimate goal then youth program investment is a big part of that. Sure, you will lose some, but growing the talent base of the league is a must if it's to become what they want it to be.

    I'm not saying that they will just go all out, but I'm certain a piece of the budget pie goes to the right places.
     
  9. Atas2000 Registered User

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    It never will work. Just admit it already. That foitball obsession is ridiculous. 16 y.o. who make fancy haircuts just like their idols and acting like they are already millionaires(I am talking about kids in those football schools) "know" they will have expensive cars and crazy parties, becauae they look up to useless bums who are making boatloads in a *** league. And that's their only goal.

    That is leading nowhere.

    Let's really leave football out of this.
     
  10. Fantomas Registered User

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    If that's the ultimate goal then Russian hockey is screwed.
     
  11. Atas2000 Registered User

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    There is a difference between blaming the 90s and the fact that the people from that 90s are still in charge.

    It is even more of a problem in such domains as sports. While elsewhere major changes already happened sports is still very much contaminated with those people of certain mentality. As evidenced for example by the Dynamo Moscow debacle and Mr.Safronov who I am sure wasn't the only person involved. There are whole networks of people with rather poisonous philosophies. Only once we get rid of most of them there will be major change.
     
  12. Fantomas Registered User

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    I'm going to check, but what is the reaction to this loss in the media so far? I've seen Eronko's article in Sport-Express. Has anyone in power chimed in? Bure said something boring. Tretiak?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  13. wings5 Registered User

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    The biggest issues is the production of centers and more importantly defenceman, if Russia is to truly accend they need to develop some elite Centers and defenceman like the other top countries are doing. I'm talking potential top pairing NHL defenceman at least every 2 years. Before Provorov and Sergachev it had been way to long and with Centers it's even worse ,all I can think of is Kuznetsov for elite young centers.
     
  14. Caser @RUSProspects

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    It is also good to remember that this 1998 crop wasn't that bad initially, but most of them disappeared somehow (and not only the CHL is to blame):

    Verba, Podkorytov, Shabanov, two pieces of Popugaevs, Meshcheryakov, Bain, Kuznetsov, Shevchenko, Yakovenko, Ryzhenkov, Gromov, Petkov, Geraskin, Kalyayev - just some noticeable names from the Prokhorov's team(s) that, even if 'disappeared' was an exaggeration, totally weren't legit candidates this year. Additionally, didn't disappear, but just weren't good enough: D. Alexeyev, Kosorenkov, D. Zaitsev, Karpukhin, Veryayev, Kara, Shvyryov, Rasseikin.
     
  15. cska78 Registered User

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    We always had similar teams (give or take of course) The difference was in goal, we always had a good tender in the past years. This year we did not, yes Sukchachev made some heroic saves at times, but boy did he allow some silly soft goals.

    Also, why are we not using special team units for PP?

    I was not happy from the get go with Zaitsev being the cap - he looks like he doesn't have much character and he is not a good player imho. Makeev an assistant, really? The guy is so bad, I am ashamed he comes from CSKA system.
     
  16. Yakushev72 Registered User

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    In order to address the realities that you describe, what I would advocate is an overhaul of the organization of youth hockey as it involves national teams competing in international tournaments. I would advocate something as closely comparable as possible to the national team concepts developed in Russia in the 1950's and 60's, and reproduced so effectively in the United States, Sweden and Finland. I would like to see national teams formed in Russia at U18 and U20 in July of each year, and which play together as a team throughout the year in the MHL and VHL, respectively. To my knowledge, that is well within IIHF rules (the USA does it at U18), and could function as a hybrid team for purposes of international competition.

    The motive here is not to punish the kids who exercise their right to play hockey in NA, or wherever else they choose. The motive is to create a cohesive, well-drilled team that play as a unit in big tournaments. It would mean being unable to use the "talent" that flows to NA to the advantage of Russia, but that "mix and match" process is a big failure anyway. It is a failure in the WJC, and also in the Olympics and WC as well. At Sochi, it was as if someone should have introduced the team to each other so that they would be on a speaking basis if they see each other again. Without some change, it really looks like the deterioration will get worse.
     
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  17. Fantomas Registered User

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    I would try it and this might even work as an incentive for young players to stay at home if they wish to be considered for the national team. Might hurt in the short term and work in the long term, gradually reshaping the way we do things.

    I also agree that players not knowing one another is a huge problem. In this tournament in particular it is glaring how little chemistry there is - there are no set plays that work and most of the goals are individual efforts.
     
  18. wings5 Registered User

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    Can someone answer the question regarding the problems in production of elite centers and mobile elite defenceman. Ferraro mentioned it looks like the Russian defenceman don't have the green light to join the attack. It's like creativity from the backend is discouraged. I'm also not positive many Russian D have the skills to control the game, rush the puck and contribute significantly offensively.
     
  19. Yakushev72 Registered User

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    Exactly. No team game, no passing connections, inability to press the play as 5-men units. This year looked totally disconnected.
     
  20. MaxV Registered User

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    The NT idea is great, I'm all for it.

    A big reason kids leave to CHL is they think it will give them more exposure and better chance to be drafted, the U18 team, when it existed, received plenty of scouting attention and resulted in several players drafted.
     
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  21. MaxV Registered User

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    This won't be a popular opinion probably, but I do feel that Russian players are being taught to be too East-West nowadays, which produces wingers but limits Centers. You can see it recently, most of these centers are there temporarily.

    With defense, I don't know, things are improving slowly, but I do see a lack of creativity and positional understanding.
     
  22. BlitzSnipe Registered User

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    I agree with the posts above about the RIHF having to take some serious steps in hockey development in order to get Russian hockey out of the slump. However, we wouldn't be in such a situation if RIHF officials would have been first of all professionals who know what has to be done to get the needed results and, second of all, if they were concerned about the state of Russian hockey. Seeing as though the slump is here, I think one can conclude that these officials are not in fact proper professionals, nor are they that concerned about these issues. In this case, they simply have to be reomoved and replaced! Only those above them in the government structures can do so - the question arises, will the commands from above follow?
     
  23. Yakushev72 Registered User

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    There are still just a few hockey schools that produce most of the country's hockey talent. Chelyabinsk, Yaroslavl, Penza, Novokuznetsk, Magnitogorsk, and even still Voskresensk, are among the few centers that consistently mass-produce talent. Take Penza and Voskresensk as cases in point. Penza is a modest sized regional city that has produced a phenomenal number of great players going all the way back to the 1970's. If you look at the roster of the 1988 Soviet Olympic Gold Medal winning team (check eliteprospects.com), one of the best teams in history, you will see that of the 22 players on the team, 4 came from the tiny town of Voskeresensk (Larionov, Kamensky, Lomakin, Chernykh), with a population of 80,000.

    There are three possibilities as to why so many players came from these towns: (1) space aliens from another universe landed there and created a genetically superior strain that fathers great players; (2) the water contains minerals that confer extraordinary athletic powers; or (3) they have good coaches and a good system for developing players. Assuming the correct answer is No. 3, why couldn't these conditions be reproduced in dozens of other cities throughout the country?
     
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  24. BlitzSnipe Registered User

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    I agree. However, the biggest question remains - will officials in government structures address these issues? If they don't initiate special development programs, preferably nationwide and not just in a few set cities, our hockey won't improve.
     
  25. Atas2000 Registered User

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    You are being unfair to some places called Kazan, Novokuznetsk AND Moscow, so your list should be way longer. This gives us enough schols to buils around, but you have to build around and not wait till the schools produce DESPITE the state of things.
     

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