Russia Banned From 2022 World Cup

[bluesfan94]

Probably a main board thread on this, too, but as it relates to soccer, I figure we should have a thread here, too

Click to read more...

 

[maclean]

Wow, what???

OK, just read up on it a bit. Looks like FIFA so far has just "taken note" of the Wada decision and it's still not clear to what extent it will apply to football. Also if it does it's just a no flag/no anthem thing like at the last Olympics

 

[hatterson]

Also of note on the WADA ruling is that Euro 2020, due to being hosted by UEFA, is not considered a "major event organization" and thus Russia is not banned from participating or hosting events for it.

 

[IceColdOx]

I only wish that it was 2017 when the ban happened. Never sat well with me that Russia got chosen over England, who had the technically superior bid.

 

[Albatros]

I only wish that it was 2017 when the ban happened. Never sat well with me that Russia got chosen over England, who had the technically superior bid.

Russia had never hosted a major tournament though, and eventually made a fairly good job. Besides England finished last out of four candidates so it wouldn't have been them anyway.

 

[Pouchkine]

Russia had never hosted a major tournament though, and eventually made a fairly good job. Besides England finished last out of four candidates so it wouldn't have been them anyway.

And England had so many empty stadiums for Euro 96.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Yeah, I knew there was something fishy when they went to the Quarterfinals in 2018.

 

[maclean]

Yeah, I knew there was something fishy when they went to the Quarterfinals in 2018.

Sorry what? Haven't really seen you around here much so I can't tell whether you're being serious or not

 

[Havre]

Sorry what? Haven't really seen you around here much so I can't tell whether you're being serious or not

Not sure if that will change much even if he/she stays around.

As for the main topic I do wonder how much worse are Russia than other countries? Ref Nike Oregon Project, Kenyan runners, last 30 years of cycling, Finnish cross country skiers etc.

Obviously a very poor argument that everyone else are as bad as us, an argument Russia seem to like in general, but probably not entirely untrue in this case.

If they go hard on Russia, which they most likely should, then I hope the same standard will apply for others as well. To my limited knowledge it seems like a couple of African countries as at least just as bad, but so far not getting the same level of attention as Russia (might be better organized in Russia even if the results are the same).

 

[Vasilevskiy]

UK would be up there.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Sorry what? Haven't really seen you around here much so I can't tell whether you're being serious or not

I'm not joking.

 

[Pouchkine]

It was more bizarre than England made the 1/2's to be honest.

 

[maclean]

I'm not joking.

As far as I know, there have been no allegations concerning the Russian football team, and honestly I have a hard time believing that doping could assure a team's success in such a tournament.

As for the rest of it, doping is certainly a widespread problem, and there may be examples where other countries have not been thorough in terms of oversight, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a modern equivalent of the extent to which Russia's authorities, sporting and otherwise, were not only complicit but actually abetting and organising the whole process on a sophisticated systematic level.

I think the ban is deserved, I just personally think it's silly to attribute the Russian team's success at the last tournament to doping, though I suppose anything's possible.

 

[Jussi]

Not sure if that will change much even if he/she stays around.

As for the main topic I do wonder how much worse are Russia than other countries? Ref Nike Oregon Project, Kenyan runners, last 30 years of cycling, Finnish Norwegian cross country skiers etc.

Obviously a very poor argument that everyone else are as bad as us, an argument Russia seem to like in general, but probably not entirely untrue in this case.

If they go hard on Russia, which they most likely should, then I hope the same standard will apply for others as well. To my limited knowledge it seems like a couple of African countries as at least just as bad, but so far not getting the same level of attention as Russia (might be better organized in Russia even if the results are the same).

Fixed.

 

[Havre]

Fixed.

Right. Whatever.

FIS Nordic World Ski Championships 2001 - Wikipedia

The point was rather to show that this isn't a Russian problem, an African problem, an American problem etc. So why be so childish about it?

When 6 Norwegian cross country skiers are caught systematically doping we will add them to the list of examples.

 

[Jussi]

Right. Whatever.

FIS Nordic World Ski Championships 2001 - Wikipedia

The point was rather to show that this isn't a Russian problem, an African problem, an American problem etc. So why be so childish about it?

When 6 Norwegian cross country skiers are caught systematically doping we will add them to the list of examples.

Because it wasn't systematic with us either and no government involvement. The Lahti case was more or less these stupid idiots (K-P Kyrö and other people) being fooled into thinking Hemohes, which was used widely by other countries, was allowed. Note that this happened during an era when EPO usage was rampant in the whole sports (several skiiers who were promoted to medals were caught later for EPO, like Mühlegg).

 

[Albatros]

The point was rather to show that this isn't a Russian problem, an African problem, an American problem etc. So why be so childish about it?

I can't see any evidence for doping being state sponsored in the United States. In certain African countries maybe, and if Kenya gets caught then ban them too. Once they change their behavior then welcome back.

 

[Havre]

I can't see any evidence for doping being state sponsored in the United States. In certain African countries maybe, and if Kenya gets caught then ban them too. Once they change their behavior then welcome back.

Probably correct, but then again the US society is not structured the same way as the Russian is. If there is widespread doping done by "Oregon projects" around I don't see there is much of a difference.

I mean when hockey players playing in the NHL are only allowed to play in the Olympics when the IOC agrees to them not being tested during the games it says quite a lot about the attitude towards doping.

Not suggesting that the US is as bad as Russia (it probably isn't), but I can see from a Russian perspective it feels unfair. The list of high profiled American athletes caught doping the last 20 years is quite extraordinary. And my guess is it was even worse before.

 

[Albatros]

I think the key difference is that if the Oregon Project gets caught then it's sufficient to ban the project because the USADA is going to reliably hold the people involved accountable and it effectively isolates the problem from the rest of the system.

In Russia on the other hand this kind of separation is impossible because the authorities are a part of the problem, and so you have to take the opposite approach of determining which sectors are clean and allowing only those.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

As far as I know, there have been no allegations concerning the Russian football team, and honestly I have a hard time believing that doping could assure a team's success in such a tournament.

As for the rest of it, doping is certainly a widespread problem, and there may be examples where other countries have not been thorough in terms of oversight, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a modern equivalent of the extent to which Russia's authorities, sporting and otherwise, were not only complicit but actually abetting and organising the whole process on a sophisticated systematic level.

I think the ban is deserved, I just personally think it's silly to attribute the Russian team's success at the last tournament to doping, though I suppose anything's possible.

Well, I said that because it's suspicious how they became from a fringe football team to one of the top in the World Cup.

 

[Albatros]

You must have an interesting definition of fringe.

 

[Moncherry]

Well, I said that because it's suspicious how they became from a fringe football team to one of the top in the World Cup.

They definitely performed better than they were expected to and I won't speak to the involvement of doping, but when you examine their results, they didn't really beat anyone they shouldn't have. Their wins came against Egypt and Saudi Arabia who are on their level or worse. They advanced against Spain on penalties, but they bunkered for 120 mins and their goal came on a fortuitous penalty, not to mention that Spain were just shit and underperformed in all their games.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

They definitely performed better than they were expected to and I won't speak to the involvement of doping, but when you examine their results, they didn't really beat anyone they shouldn't have. Their wins came against Egypt and Saudi Arabia who are on their level or worse. They advanced against Spain on penalties, but they bunkered for 120 mins and their goal came on a fortuitous penalty, not to mention that Spain were just **** and underperformed in all their games.

They almost won against Croatia as well.

 

[Havre]

I think the key difference is that if the Oregon Project gets caught then it's sufficient to ban the project because the USADA is going to reliably hold the people involved accountable and it effectively isolates the problem from the rest of the system.

In Russia on the other hand this kind of separation is impossible because the authorities are a part of the problem, and so you have to take the opposite approach of determining which sectors are clean and allowing only those.

Might be the case today, but historically this is certainly not the case in the US.

And I am not sure if I agree that you can say it is sufficient to just "ban the project". If it was that easy Russia could also set up several "private" initiatives safeguarding the whole system by just blaming individual "projects" if they get caught.

Not that I am defending Russia. I think they should be punished hard, but I just hope it doesn't stop with Russia. The US is probably not the next on the list, but most big nations got a bad history when it comes to doping (most nations in general maybe).

I guess there is hope (obviously the Goldman Dilemma should be taken for what it is - I don't believe you will get "real" answers through those questions, but it might give an indication on attitude towards something).

 

[Blender]

The US has a long history of turning a blind eye to doping and protecting their star athletes as best as they can. Russia actively participated and encouraged a doping program. There is a huge difference between those two things.