Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2020-21 Pt. III

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Flair19Woo

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No, despite the 3 games over 500 start, I would still describe the Lightning season as consistent excellence. Even as they installed an entirely new defensive system they managed to keep their heads above water. That's hard to do. So while it may not have resulted in Ws, the time they spent in the first third of the season was time well spent.

ok. I disagree. I have a different interpretation of consistency and being excellent, but that’s fine. Ironing out the kinks is not excellence in my books albeit good to go through and come out of.
 

boredmale

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Yeah - I'd say that Winnipeg and Laine are heading for a divorce. That said I don't think we're Laine's next spouse. That's ok given what we'd have to give up and the cap space we don't have, but annoyingly I think that the Flyers, Blue Jackets, and Hurricanes are all good candidates to land him for multiple reasons...And of course Winnipeg will be looking to send him to the Eastern Conference if at all possible.

I pointed this out on the main board. Pulock + for Laine(a rough salary match), trade Bailey(who would be easier then Boychuk and free up 5M) and all our capspace issues would be gone and we would have the extra cash to sign Martin and Greene
 

Uncle Duke

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ok. I disagree. I have a different interpretation of consistency and being excellent, but that’s fine. Ironing out the kinks is not excellence in my books albeit good to go through and come out of.
Excellence can come in many forms, but forgetting the semantics, in the end what this entire exchange has been about is trying to equate what happened to the Isles mid/late-season with the Lightning's "slow" start. A construct so devoid of merit or intellectual honesty as to defy description.
 
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Uncle Duke

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As if we cannot connect the dots already, I think we're going to look back on this offseason and see that Leddy was not only not close to being dealt, but not even shopped around by Lou. Pelech, Pulock, and Leddy are still our best 3 d-men, but most importantly...I don't think Trotz is joking at all when he says he loves him.

Boychuk is the preferred deal for Lou as he's the lesser player, and while he has an easier contract to deal because of the cash involved, it's still not an easy contract to deal because he's not as talented as Leddy and more importantly...Boychuk can eliminate 22 teams he doesn't want to be traded to which is very hard to overcome even if Boychuk was a talented 25 year old with a reasonable contract.
If Lou can find a suitor, I'm afraid the dowry is going to be huge.
 

LeapOnOver

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I pointed this out on the main board. Pulock + for Laine(a rough salary match), trade Bailey(who would be easier then Boychuk and free up 5M) and all our capspace issues would be gone and we would have the extra cash to sign Martin and Greene

I saw this post, and knowing Chevy your + is going to be Dobson. I don't really think losing Bailey, Pulock and a big plus for Laine is going to make us better. Would be good for Laine to come here as he'll be coached by the best coach in the league and learn how to play a both ends of the ice game and become a complete player. I just don't think it's worth the assets to get him. If you look at the Islanders we had depth at defence because of our drafts picks growing into spots. We were only able to trade Toews because of that development.

We need to be patient and let the same thing happen with the forwards we drafted, and right now I don't think any of them have given that confidence yet (like Dobson has). I'd rather sit tight and see if Wahlstrom or any of the others can be Laine and then some, than just pull the trigger on him now gutting a defensive core. Lastly, I heard Peg fans say they want an elite center in return. We just now finally have center depth. Unless you are willing to throw Brock into the mix and have JGP as a 2nd line center, don't think their needs match our surpluses.
 
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boredmale

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I saw this post, and knowing Chevy your + is going to be Dobson. I don't really think losing Bailey, Pulock and a big plus for Laine is going to make us better. Would be good for Laine to come here as he'll be coached by the best coach in the league and learn how to play a both ends of the ice game and become a complete player. I just don't think it's worth the assets to get him. If you look at the Islanders we had depth at defence because of our drafts picks growing into spots. We were only able to trade Toews because of that development.

We need to be patient and let the same thing happen with the forwards we drafted, and right now I don't think any of them have given that confidence yet (like Dobson has). I'd rather sit tight and see if Wahlstrom or any of the others can be Laine and then some, then just pull the trigger on him now gutting a defensive core. Lastly, I heard Peg fans say they want an elite center in return. We just now finally have center depth. Unless you are willing to throw Brock into the mix and have JGP as a 2nd line center, don't think their needs match our surpluses.

I realize you have to give to get, so in a normal year I would be willing to trade either Pulock or Dobson but not both, but given our cap crunch no way can we unload Dobson.

My guess the + would be Wahlstrom and something else(I am guessing the jets would want a first but I would try find something else). I like Wahlstrom as a prospect but I think the past couple of years have knocked him down a bit as a prospect. He had a couple good but not great world jr championships, while his year in College and the the AHL have been minor disappointments with a few good signs

Jets are also in their own sort of cap crunch so not sure they could take on Bailey(my suggestion was find a team who might take on Bailey for a not so great return but not a negative one like Boychuk) so we can free up cap. From my understand it seems like they want either a center(grant you they just traded for Stastny) and/or a RHD. We really can't provide the first but we do have option 2.

Simple fact in regards to Laine if 40 goal scorers don't grow on trees and him and Barzal would most likely be magic together

In terms of our defense yes it's a downgrade but

Pelech-Mayfield
Leddy-Boychuk
Greene-Dobson
Aho-Hickey

isn't that bad and would also set us up pretty good for the expansion draft
 
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LeapOnOver

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I realize you have to give to get, so in a normal year I would be willing to trade either Pulock or Dobson but not both, but given our cap crunch no way can we unload Dobson.

My guess the + would be Wahlstrom and something else(I am guessing the jets would want a first but I would try find something else). I like Wahlstrom as a prospect but I think the past couple of years have knocked him down a bit as a prospect. He had a couple good but not great world jr championships, while his year in College and the the AHL have been minor disappointments with a few good signs

Jets are also in their own sort of cap crunch so not sure they could take on Bailey(my suggestion was find a team who might take on Bailey for a not so great return but not a negative one like Boychuk) so we can free up cap. From my understand it seems like they want either a center(grant you they just traded for Stastny) and/or a RHD. We really can't provide the first but we do have option 2.

Simple fact in regards to Laine if 40 goal scorers don't grow on trees and him and Barzal would most likely be magic together

In terms of our defense yes it's a downgrade but

Pelech-Mayfield
Leddy-Boychuk
Greene-Dobson
Aho-Hickey

isn't that bad

Yeah, I didn't mean for the Jets to get Bailey. I was with you on the assumption he'd have to be moved somewhere else. I guess it would be equally important as what we got back for Bailey as it would what we gave up for Laine. I really liked what I saw from Wahlstrom, and if it weren't for him being 1 game shy of affecting his ELC I'm quite confident we would have saw him in the playoffs. Maybe I'm gun shy but I was already to dish Barzal off for Duchene way back when, and I learned a big lesson there. I feel like we need a better look at Wahlstrom before making a decision on a guy like Laine. But it's not out of the question I guess as most likely management already has gotten long looks and know whether they want to see more or are ready to strike while the iron is hot.

Don't get me wrong, as close as we got this year, no doubt Laine would make us an absolute feared threat for the next season. If we all buy into the fact that were are that good and only a few pieces away, it may just be what gets us there. If it weren't for the way we finished last season, I might be willing to go all in. That's the only thing that gives me reservations...
 

periferal

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I pointed this out on the main board. Pulock + for Laine(a rough salary match), trade Bailey(who would be easier then Boychuk and free up 5M) and all our capspace issues would be gone and we would have the extra cash to sign Martin and Greene

Well I certainly respect the angle you're taking here, but in such a scenario...

  1. That "+" in Pulock+ for Laine would be pretty significant.
  2. With Toews already gone, trading Pulock creates a big hole in the d-corp.
  3. I'm ok with Greene coming back, but let's be honest...He's a bottom-pairing d-man at this point.
  4. If you think we're in cap trouble now, under this scenario next season Pelech, Beauvillier, Sorokin, and now Laine would all need new deals (and Cizikas if you wanted to keep him) with a total of about 17M in cap space (and Laine would want at least half of that).

One of these seasons we're just going to have to bite the bullet to get our cap in line and personally I'm a big believer that when you have a problem that you deal with it as soon as possible.
 
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boredmale

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One of these seasons we're just going to have to bite the bullet to get our cap in line and personally I'm a big believer that when you have a problem that you deal with it as soon as possible.

It should be much easier getting rid of all our problem contracts in 2021, since all of them are 1 year less(Although good luck with Ladd's. lol)
 

periferal

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It should be much easier getting rid of all our problem contracts in 2021, since all of them are 1 year less(Although good luck with Ladd's. lol)

No question guys on expiring contracts can only be easier to trade, but again we already know that 2021-2022 is also going to have a flat cap as well. Also it's much easier to trade a pending UFA closer to that year's trade deadline than before the season starts. Next offseason it will be a tad easier, but still tough to deal Boychuk, Komarov, Hickey, etc wen you're asking a team to take on the full salary/cap hit for an entire year.

Add in the 2021 UFA class which (as of now) is much deeper than this class, and much like what's going on right now there's going to be more demand than supply of cap space...And that's with Seattle adding another 81.5M to the market.

To that end...Seattle should make out like bandits next offseason. If they don't I think Francis should be fired out of the gate.*



(*I'm bit extreme here to make a point. Of course Francis won't be fired, but man are the planets aligned for him to build a great team in year 1 for Seattle and even stockpile draft picks. So if he doesn't take advantage of that it will be seriously embarrassing.)
 
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GrandmaSlices51631

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Remarkable. In a neck and neck race between Leddy and Bailey, Leddy has been one of the two favorite whipping boys on these pages for years and Toews has been a rising star. All of a sudden Toews is dogshit and Leddy is the second coming of Borje Salming, Hilarious.

And what does that have to do with reality?
 

Quicklime

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Remarkable. In a neck and neck race between Leddy and Bailey, Leddy has been one of the two favorite whipping boys on these pages for years and Toews has been a rising star. All of a sudden Toews is dogshit and Leddy is the second coming of Borje Salming, Hilarious.

dude....I get ya.
 

BelovedIsles

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Right, they did. And I think it was poor decision.

Let me ask you something. You have posted repeatedly that teams in the Isles situation have to overspend in order to attract talent, and middling talent at that as you have already conceded that elite FAs won't come here. Please explain to me how a team can continue to do that over time in a salary cap environment and compete for a Cup? And then not turn to sucking at some point? It seems to me that if we were to follow your prescribed path we'd end up in the same place that you have described in your previous post.

Lou stated when he first took on the regime that there is enough talent to use as a base and build upon to compete for a playoff spot. He was correct. He also stated that it would take 3-5 years to see his plan come to its culmination. Additionally, the owners want to 'win-now,' they aren't cheaping out via a rebuild (see Ottawa). And rebuilds do not always translate to bonafide winners; many variables need to go right, luck with the draft positioning, developmental arcs, coaching, having a top-2 pick in a year where a Hedman is available, not a Nolan Patrick.
 
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BelovedIsles

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Both Snow and Lou has made some horrendous decisions over the years, but Lou is the one who effectively killed our cap. The Hickey deal was dreadful and giving 4 years to Johnston is nuts, even if it's just a million. But the biggest cap killers are by far the Komarov, Eberle and Lee deals. Also keeping Varlamov over Lehner is questionable from a cap perspective, although the Sorokin implications are obvious.
The signing of Nelson is the only long term signing that may prove to be a really good move, even if it seemed a little crazy before Trotz transformed him.

Snow signed Ross.

The only deal I truly can fault him on is locking in the mediocre Eberle. Leo is probably a year too long, a mil. too rich, but it's small in comparison to others and Leo is one of NYI's best defensive forwards/ PK'ers.. Lee is the captain, Lou wanted to keep the guy as there wasn't a replacement available; Lou was in a tough situation and now still is.

Edit: I didn't like the Hickey deal, never have liked the player. I would've let him go.
 
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NickyP76

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Hoffman is only needle mover FA scorer left. I don’t see it happening. Duclair is a nice piece as is Grandlund, and even Haula. But if those are the moves, nothing changes. If we can’t afford Hoffman, I don’t see how that would change for a player in a trade we don’t know of.
 

Newsworthy

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Remarkable. In a neck and neck race between Leddy and Bailey, Leddy has been one of the two favorite whipping boys on these pages for years and Toews has been a rising star. All of a sudden Toews is dogshit and Leddy is the second coming of Borje Salming, Hilarious.

Exactly. Half the fanbase wanted Leddy gone at the deadline not that long ago.
Toews was the golden child.
Somehow the roles are now reversed. Leddy did play better but it's not as though Toews regressed. I don't believe Lou traded Toews because of performance. He's a cap casualty and we have depth at the position plus the expansion draft.
Keeping Boychuk and paying Hickey is a mind boggling problem. Trading Toews doesn't make us a better team.
 

Newsworthy

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Hoffman is only needle mover FA scorer left. I don’t see it happening. Duclair is a nice piece as is Grandlund, and even Haula. But if those are the moves, nothing changes. If we can’t afford Hoffman, I don’t see how that would change for a player in a trade we don’t know of.
What about taking a flyer on Galchenyuk?
 
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NC 1972

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I saw this post, and knowing Chevy your + is going to be Dobson. I don't really think losing Bailey, Pulock and a big plus for Laine is going to make us better. Would be good for Laine to come here as he'll be coached by the best coach in the league and learn how to play a both ends of the ice game and become a complete player. I just don't think it's worth the assets to get him. If you look at the Islanders we had depth at defence because of our drafts picks growing into spots. We were only able to trade Toews because of that development.

We need to be patient and let the same thing happen with the forwards we drafted, and right now I don't think any of them have given that confidence yet (like Dobson has). I'd rather sit tight and see if Wahlstrom or any of the others can be Laine and then some, than just pull the trigger on him now gutting a defensive core. Lastly, I heard Peg fans say they want an elite center in return. We just now finally have center depth. Unless you are willing to throw Brock into the mix and have JGP as a 2nd line center, don't think their needs match our surpluses.
Agreed, and I believe this what management is also thinking. We don't know when the season will start so in the meantime let's see how things shake out and have faith that there is a master plan.
 
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Islanders4Cups

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Sorry not faulting Lou for anything. The situation he walked into was nearly impossible.

He worked with what he had and brought this team to within a breakaway in OT of forcing a Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Semi Finals with what was the worst defensive team in the NHL just a few seasons prior.
The Islanders are 4-2 in playoff series with this team despite losing their #1 center.

He lost Tavares and signed Lee with few or no other options.

Eberle has lived up to his contract thus far on a defense first type team scoring 21 goals 33 assists over 80 games last season + playoffs. Yes he was ranked 27th in points for right wingers during the regular season but averaged 20th in ice time on a team that rolled 4 lines more than most.
I believe Eberle has outperformed other named players thrown around as potential targets over the last few seasons as first line wingers like James Van Riemsdyk who cost more. Hell he outperformed Matt Duschene.
He is on par with others like Tyler Toifili, Brendan Gallagher and Jakob Silfverberg who earn about the same.
There are costs to building a winner like trading for Pageau for valuable draft picks.

The hope is a guy like Wahlstrom can replace Eberle sooner rather than later.
Yes Eberle has a no trade clause, but priorities dictate that if Wahlstrom can take over, you expose Eberle for the greater good. Wahlstrom has to match or beat Eberle’s production which is outside the top 20 scoring right wingers in the NHL and play a two way game. That bar is high but maybe not too high.

The other area to look at is Boychuk or Leddy. Lou knows what he is doing. Not saying he is 100% always right but no one is. He is more right thaN wrong and much better than most of his GM peers.
 

Islander Class

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Lou stated when he first took on the regime that there is enough talent to use as a base and build upon to compete for a playoff spot. He was correct. He also stated that it would take 3-5 years to see his plan come to its culmination. Additionally, the owners want to 'win-now,' they aren't cheaping out via a rebuild (see Ottawa). And rebuilds do not always translate to bonafide winners; many variables need to go right, luck with the draft positioning, developmental arcs, coaching, having a top-2 pick in a year where a Hedman is available, not a Nolan Patrick.

I used to be all about rebuilds- then 2009 came along. We literally had the opportunity to pick Hedman, didn’t, and were universally praised for the pick we did make. Fast forward to today- and had Tavares stayed w/us I honestly think we’d be bemoaning his salary, declining speed and how much more impactful Hedman is.

To make rebuilds even more perilous- I sincerely doubt Hedman would have gotten to where he is under a Snow/Capuano/Weight NYI regime as defensemen are historically much harder to develop. Any early struggles would have also been amplified by disgruntled NYI fans (me included!) who would have been irate that we didn’t take Tavares. He probably wouldn’t even still be here either. Hedman thrived in TB because the quality of the organization over many years gave him a chance to do so.

So much more important IMHO to have good people doing a good job year-after-year instilling a winning culture/mentality than merely collecting toys at the Draft- which anybody can do. Big reason why I’ve greeted the Kakko/Lafreniere additions in MSG mostly with a shrug. Congratulations, you know how to read the Central Scouting Rankings. Let’s see you make something of it (maybe they will BTW as 2020 NYR org. > 2009 NYI org.- but the work ain’t even half done)...
 
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Lek

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I used to be all about rebuilds- then 2009 came along. We literally had the opportunity to pick Hedman, didn’t, and were universally praised for the pick we did make. Fast forward to today- and had Tavares stayed w/us I honestly think we’d be bemoaning his salary, declining speed and how much more impactful Hedman is....

Though i did not and would not have advocated signing him at his price, i actually think JT would have played and held up quite well under the Trotz system.
 
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BelovedIsles

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I used to be all about rebuilds- then 2009 came along. We literally had the opportunity to pick Hedman, didn’t, and were universally praised for the pick we did make. Fast forward to today- and had Tavares stayed w/us I honestly think we’d be bemoaning his salary, declining speed and how much more impactful Hedman is.

To make rebuilds even more perilous- I sincerely doubt Hedman would have gotten to where he is under a Snow/Capuano/Weight NYI regime as defensemen are historically much harder to develop. Any early struggles would have also been amplified by disgruntled NYI fans (me included!) who would have been irate that we didn’t take Tavares. He probably wouldn’t even still be here either. Hedman thrived in TB because the quality of the organization over many years gave him a chance to do so.

So much more important IMHO to have good people doing a good job year-after-year instilling a winning culture/mentality than merely collecting toys at the Draft- which anybody can do. Big reason why I’ve greeted the Kakko/Lafreniere additions in MSG mostly with a shrug. Congratulations, you know how to read the Central Scouting Rankings. Let’s see you make something of it (maybe they will BTW as 2020 NYR org. > 2009 NYI org.- but the work ain’t even half done)...

Agree with this post. Yeah, I'm done with full rebuilds myself.
 
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