Blue Jays Discussion: Roy Halladay elected to 2019 Baseball Hall of Fame class

BAM

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Nov 21, 2016
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Machado or Harper would be great if they could be had for the prices going. The fact that 31 year old David Price is going to have a contract bigger than either of these 2 is crazy. My favourite player is Machado and his attitude doesn't bother me in the slightest. Pay for superstar talent, players can change and don't have to keep the same perception their entire careers. Good culture is created by winning, you can have all the nice/good guys you want but if y'all suck the culture isn't going to be good.
 

zeke

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Mar 14, 2005
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If we can see progress made throughout the organization consistently this season, I don't care if its at the MLB level or not. The goal should be that players like Vladdy, Bo, Biggio, Smith, Pearson, Tellez, Gurriel, Jansen, SRF, Panone, Borucki, McGuire, Hernandez, Grichuk, McKinney, and all other prospects or younger players continue to take steps forward and their growth isn't stunted by injury.

In the end regardless of where they play, their value increases, their skills get better and whether or not its for the Jays core moving forward or being a piece we can use to add to core. The Jays will be in a good position come next off season.

Obviously some players will be in the MLB developing. But some really don't need to be rushed considering what we have available on the MLB level. Why bring up Bichette if you have Drury, Travis, Gurriel, and Vladdy at MLB level? Why not let those players flourish hopefully and turn them into assets for other area upgrades, while at the same time Bo, Smith and Biggio are developing in the minors? Why bring up McGuire right now, when you have Jansen and Maile to handle catcher duties? Why bring up Tellez right now if you still have Morales and Smoak?

Let the players develop in the minors, hope players have better seasons at the MLB level. Then trade and recycle, while recouping more assets hopefully. As long as prospects are playing that should be the goal regardless of where. Last thing we want is for prospects to be platooned or bench players at MLB level which stunts their growth. They need at bats and playing time.

That is my point of view. We are not going to challenge for anything this season. Its all about development.

why waste a year of vladdy's control if we're punting the season?

he's only 20. he can use more time in AAA.
 

Woodman19

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With all the money on the books this year it likely disqualifies us for a big free agent. I would personally like to front load a Machado deal and go for $200 mil over 7 years for the plan Quimby mentioned.
 

BAM

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so stripping down the team to bare bones actually HURTS our chances at signing impact FA.

interesting.
If you're Harper or Machado, and you could go to the Phillies with their young core, Cubs (proven winners and possible Harper fit), Yankees, Whitesox (similar position to the Jays but most of their top prospects have already made their debuts), why would you look at the Jays when you don't even know who you have around you? I'm all for the Jays signing Harper or Machado, it makes sense and I'd love nothing more than to see Vlad Jr-Machado/Harper for the next 5-8 years.

Players ultimately decide where they play, and a team stripped to the bare bones is not appealing until they show a future that's worth joining. Leafs missed on Stamkos before the big 3 made their debuts, fast forward 2 years and the young core is established and a superstar wants to join them to complete the core.
 

GoonieFace

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This is all well and good, but realistically none of these big name players (Machado, Harper, Trout etc) are signing here.
 

BAM

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This is all well and good, but realistically none of these big name players (Machado, Harper, Trout etc) are signing here.
Players will come if you win, any team not named the Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox, Dodgers doesn't offer anything the Jays can't. You'll see this start to change in the near future, Toronto in today's generation isn't thought of in the same manner it was in the 2000's and beyond. People know it's a world class city and akin to playing in NY, LA, Chicago in regards to national exposure (In Canada). The best pitcher of all time (Clemens) signed in his prime with the Jays, Price wanted to be here but the Jays weren't offering him a contract. There's no reason players wouldn't come here if the foundation is set, some of y'all stuck in the past with that nobody wants to come to Toronto stuff. Realize what culture and society has positively done for Toronto.
 

zeke

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If you're Harper or Machado, and you could go to the Phillies with their young core, Cubs (proven winners and possible Harper fit), Yankees, Whitesox (similar position to the Jays but most of their top prospects have already made their debuts), why would you look at the Jays when you don't even know who you have around you? I'm all for the Jays signing Harper or Machado, it makes sense and I'd love nothing more than to see Vlad Jr-Machado/Harper for the next 5-8 years.

Players ultimately decide where they play, and a team stripped to the bare bones is not appealing until they show a future that's worth joining. Leafs missed on Stamkos before the big 3 made their debuts, fast forward 2 years and the young core is established and a superstar wants to join them to complete the core.

I'm old enough to remember short times when free agents wanted to sign with us. And much longer times when they didn't.

I wonder if our management had an appreciation of that.
 

BAM

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I'm old enough to remember short times when free agents wanted to sign with us. And much longer times when they didn't.

I wonder if our management had an appreciation of that.
I think the mistake you're making is using past experiences to predict future ones. If the Indians core that Shapiro built was in a market like Toronto...they'd be a near dynasty IMO. The Jays never have to move players because they're a small market and can't afford them. The Leafs never signed a big name free agent and then Tavares happened.

Bring in your youth, let them develop and show potential, and players will come. Guys born in the 1990's like Harper and Machado don't care that Toronto couldn't attract anyone before they were born. All that matters is how the team is doing now and going forward.
 

zeke

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tbh, I'm not sure that Indians team ever makes the playoffs in the East.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
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This is all well and good, but realistically none of these big name players (Machado, Harper, Trout etc) are signing here.

I disagree. If you go over the field in terms of the overall number, or AAV, and perhaps structure a deal with opt outs at 29 and 30 year old seasons, Machado signs without hesitating. Honestly, Harper as well.

Trout, IMO, will be a Philly.
 

BAM

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tbh, I'm not sure that Indians team ever makes the playoffs in the East.
They swept the red sox (division winners in 2016) and beat the second best team in the East in 5 games the year they made the World Series. They were up 3-1 in the World Series. Those Indians teams were loaded with pitching, defense, hitting and speed. If they were in a big market they could've made an even bigger splash than the EE signing.
 
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GoonieFace

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I disagree. If you go over the field in terms of the overall number, or AAV, and perhaps structure a deal with opt outs at 29 and 30 year old seasons, Machado signs without hesitating. Honestly, Harper as well.

Trout, IMO, will be a Philly.

You are probably right, I just like to temper my expectations to avoid disappointment. If he ever makes it to UFA I would love Mookie Betts. Trout to the Phillies is a guarantee.
 

BAM

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Does anyone actually like the prospect of potentially signing Arenado next year or are his road numbers too varying compared to his home splits to take that chance? I was the biggest Tulo fan and then he came here and was shit.
 

zeke

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So Tulo and Martin will both be starting players on contenders this year. Who woulda thunk it?
 

Discoverer

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So Tulo and Martin will both be starting players on contenders this year. Who woulda thunk it?

Yeah, I never would have guessed that contenders would have holes in their roster big enough to be filled by having those two guys as everyday players in 2019.
 
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zeke

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Yep, totally unthinkable and crazy how things work out.
 

zeke

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Projected 2019 WAR/650 and WAR/32gs

1.Vladdy 5.6
2.Jansen 4.1
3.Stroman 2.8
4.Grichuk 2.7
5.Pillar 2.2
6.Gurriel 2.2
7.Smoak 2.0
8.Travis 1.7
9.SRF 1.6
10.Shoe 1.5
 

zeke

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and since they're virtually still on our payroll:

Martin 3.2
Tulo 2.7
 

zeke

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If either makes it through spring training healthy, I imagine they'll still be behind Barnes and Torres, respectively.

eh, Torres can't even field 2B, let alone SS.

and Barnes? having one 250pa stint of MLB competence 2yrs ago at age 27 probably isn't a great indicator of future success.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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Who would have thunk you move off older, unhealthy, expensive players when you have better younger ones;

2018 Position Value:
C: 2.9 WAR
SS: 2.0 WAR
3B: 1.0 WAR
Total: 5.9 WAR

2019 Projection Value:
C: 3.1 WAR
SS: 2.2 WAR
3B: 5.2 WAR
Total: 10.5 WAR

--------------------------------------------------

2018 Player Value:
Martin: 0.6 WAR
Tulowitzki: 0.0 WAR
Diaz: 1.6 WAR
Donaldson: 0.8 WAR
Total: 3 WAR

2019 Projection Value:
Former Jays
Martin: 1.1 WAR
Tulowitzki: 1.5 WAR
Diaz: 0.6 WAR
Donaldson: 4.1 WAR
Total: 7.3 WAR

Current Jays
Jansen: 2.7 WAR
Gurriel: 2.1 WAR
Drury: 0.7 WAR
Guerrero: 5.1 WAR
Total: 10.6 WAR

Last year we got 5.9 WAR out of C, SS and 3B - Fangraph projects 10.5 WAR.
Last year we got 3 WAR out Martin, Tulo, Diaz and Donaldson.
Fangraphs projects 7.3 WAR out of Martin, Tulo, Diaz and Donaldson for the 2019 and 10.6 WAR out of Jansen, Gurriel, Drury and Vladdy.

The 2019 should be better than the 2018 by swapping out unproductive old players (sans Diaz) for younger, healthier better players. This should show up in the win column and on field product.
 
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