Prospect Info: Round 4, Pick 104: Mikhail Vorobyov, C, Tolpar Ufa (MHL --> KHL)
- Thread starter GKJ
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Appleyard
Registered User
Played his second game of the season today.
4-3 OT win.
No points, -1, but won 61.9% of the faceoffs he took and had 2 shots on goal.
Took two minors as well, one for hooking, one for slashing.
4-3 OT win.
No points, -1, but won 61.9% of the faceoffs he took and had 2 shots on goal.
Took two minors as well, one for hooking, one for slashing.
Appleyard
Registered User
Hard to say.
There is a lack of parity between teams in general.
I think the top teams would be able to compete with any in the CHL... but some near the bottom would be mincemeat.
In the playoffs also the teams get stacked as KHL teams who are eliminated send down all the eligible guys.
If we look at guys who went from MHL to CHL their PPG generally jumps a bit. (though you have to factor in development as they are a year older, and the fact that on big ice scoring is lower) But then again when guys have switched when older, ie 18-19-20, their scoring stays at a similar level or jumps slightly.
Overall I would say it is definitely in the same kind of tier as the USJL, QMJHL, OHL and WHL... just hard to say where it would come out of those leagues. If all were combined for a season there would be some MHL teams contending, but certainly a few glued right near the foot of the table.
Ryker
Registered User
For what it's worth, here are the standings from the JCWC/YWC played in late August for the past 5 years. I'm not sure I'd agree with Appleyard as far as parity in the MHL goes, though, or at least I don't think there's less of it than there is in the CHL. It's also hard to compare across leagues due to such a limited sample of head-to-head games. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd unfortunately have to admit that I do think the top CHL teams are better than the top MHL teams, since they not only have the good Canadian players, but also a couple of good imports that the MHL lacks.
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
Sudbury winning that tournament is pretty embarrassing to all participating teams. They've been one of the worst run teams not only in the OHL but the entire CHL over these last 5 or so years. Not a lot of talent goes through there which makes it odd that Sokolov would commit to playing there for this upcoming season.
Appleyard
Registered User
I suppose you are right about parity Ryker... pretty similar when compared with the CHL leagues, some atrocious teams every year you lose on average by 3+ goals a game. Was kind of thinking about the parity in isolation or compared to an actual senior league.
But if we look at the head to heads of CHL vs MHL:
2014: Cape Breton: 1W, 2L. 9GF, 9GA
2013: Sudbury Wolves: 0W, 2L. 3GF, 8GA
2012: Sudbury Wolves: 1W, 1L. 6GF, 4GA
Overall: 2W, 4L. 18GF, 21 GA.
Cape Breton 2014: 13th/18 in QMJHL, they may have been 13th seed but got to game 7 with Quebec.
Sudbury 2013: 11th/20 in OHL, lost 1st round of playoffs.
Sudbury 2012: 13th/20 in OHL, beat Brampton in playoffs, lost in 2nd round.
So these below average CHL teams had a losing record against average to slightly above average MHL teams.
If anything the Junior club world cup in the last few years has made the USHL look really good... their average teams doing well against everyone.
I would maintain that the top MHL teams would be able to compete (note I did not say win!) with the best in the CHL, and that the MHL is not overall decidedly worse than the CHL or MHL. Though ofc CHL and USHL would be better places to play for development in regards to a North American future.
But if we look at the head to heads of CHL vs MHL:
2014: Cape Breton: 1W, 2L. 9GF, 9GA
2013: Sudbury Wolves: 0W, 2L. 3GF, 8GA
2012: Sudbury Wolves: 1W, 1L. 6GF, 4GA
Overall: 2W, 4L. 18GF, 21 GA.
Cape Breton 2014: 13th/18 in QMJHL, they may have been 13th seed but got to game 7 with Quebec.
Sudbury 2013: 11th/20 in OHL, lost 1st round of playoffs.
Sudbury 2012: 13th/20 in OHL, beat Brampton in playoffs, lost in 2nd round.
So these below average CHL teams had a losing record against average to slightly above average MHL teams.
If anything the Junior club world cup in the last few years has made the USHL look really good... their average teams doing well against everyone.
I would maintain that the top MHL teams would be able to compete (note I did not say win!) with the best in the CHL, and that the MHL is not overall decidedly worse than the CHL or MHL. Though ofc CHL and USHL would be better places to play for development in regards to a North American future.
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
Friedman played on that Waterloo team in 2012 that lost in the finals to Sudbury. It was pretty much their breakout year as a program as they had multiple kids get drafted that year (2013 draft) which the trend has continued the following two drafts (2014 & 2015). They're probably the best talent producing USHL team right now when discounting the U.S. Program teams.
Appleyard
Registered User
Vorobyov held pointless in a game that just finished.
His team out-shot the opposition 49-19 but lost 3-2.
Vorobyov even in +/-, on ice for no goals.
He did however have 5 shots, and his line looks line they had ~15 shots!
His team out-shot the opposition 49-19 but lost 3-2.
Vorobyov even in +/-, on ice for no goals.
He did however have 5 shots, and his line looks line they had ~15 shots!
Tripod
I hate this team
How did he do on FO?
BTW....thanks for all the updates on the non-North American players.
Appleyard
Registered User
it is the best competition. all the CHL believers are just believers. the MHL/KHL system is the best place to be for a russian player until age 21-23 at least actually, unless he's Ovechkin 2.0 maybe.
Appleyard
Registered User
I'm not trying to argue your wrong but why? From an out side perspective it seems like it's very hard for players to successfully leave the Russian system and if they do it is not always a smooth transition. Like I said I don't know anything about the mhl. Khl yes. But if you have more information or insight on Russian players benefiting from Russian leagues please explain. And again this is for a better understanding not calling you out on your points
The most striking points tome are:
It is indeed a different brand of hockey in Russia. Players leaving too early are basically in the situation where they haven't finished their learning of the russian style and then are forced to have a crash course in NA hockey while dealing with a culture shock of transition to a life in a diffrent country, learning a language and so on. In many cases they basically fail to take from both systems and even start losing the traits they had. Again, having a talent level of a guy like Ovechkin they not only manage to adjust, but also go a completely different path, i.e. getting a NHL roster spot early instead of going the whole path of CHL, AHL over the course of 3-5 years. For a 17y.o. who isn't a consensus top 10 pick the early change bears way too many dangers. The culture adjustment may fail, the style of hockey adjustment may fail(and let's face it, for quite objective reasons the coaches in the CHL won't spend too much time on a guy who struggles to adjust, that's not peewee hockey anymore), the things the guy learned in Russia may fade instead of being perfected. It also has to do with age. That's why I see that 21-23 as a good age to leave. They are much more mature at this age and have a better understanding of what they're going to face and the level of personal responsibility. And I think it is obvious it is a completely different path than that of a canadian kid spending his whole development time in the same system and smoothly growing his way through all the levels. So it has nothing to do with the quality of the development system itself, as both systems are different but very close in quality overall.
And that is the other point. There are some significant differences in the russian league system. Most MHL teams are directly affiliated to a KHL franchise(and basically there is a 3 team conglomerate there MHL, VHL and KHL). The best part of it for young players is there are no such age limits as in NA. The KHL basicallly allows 17y.o. to play(if they are that good obviously and with some restrictions). If the young player is good enough he'd get to play with the grey beards earlier. And there is much more movement between the leagues. Obviously it's a rare case a 17y.o. is good enough to spend a season in the KHL, but having some stints to see what the game for the big boys looks like is a valuable experience and the player can spend the rest of the season in the MHL(or VHL if the team thinks he's better off there with grown ups, but not quite ready for the KHL yet. that's another sub-point.in the russian system all prospects are in the same franchise system and their development can be watched more closely by the coaching staff, while in NA scouts would monitor prospects playing on different teams in different leagues.). There is no 9 game rule. Players can be called up to the KHL and sent down throughout the whole season. That adds flexibility to the development system.
The often heard critisizm(also in Russia) about young guys riding the pine too much in the KHL should be taken with a grain of salt. The KHL is not a development league after all. Nobody will give a roster spot to a young guy if he's not contributing to team success and oviously it's harder to get a roster spot on a contending team. On the other hand if a young palyer is that good nobody in his right mind will glue him to the MHL, while obviously every KHL coach has a mind of his own too. So it's not a league thing. Every player's development situation is different. Oviously while Sibir wasn't a contender a 18y.o. Tarasenko was a top line player there, but he'd maybe get much less minutes on a different team. While bottom feeders like Kuznya are perfect places to shine for young guys every season.
The other point of critisizm being the level of competition in the MHL is also way off the mark in my opinion. While the MHL is still young and going though growing pains it develops just fine. One of the good moves on the road being relegating weaker teams to MHL-B. There may be less parity in the MHL than in the CHL which basically derives from strong KHL franchises having their own well built development system starting from kids hockey to the MHL and VHL teams. Those heavywheights obviously dominate the MHL, but there aren't too few. It's not like there are 2 good teams and the rest are punching bags. Also since this season the russian U18 NT competes in the MHL. Too early to evaluate so far, but for a small sample size it works pretty well as they look on par with the better teams(being of course younger) and while the team is a good competition for others it's also a good place for development for U18 prospects.
There is also often an attempt to compare the CHL to the MHL straight up which is wrong. Firstly because while there is more disparity in the MHL there is still enough good competition in the MHL and MHL's better teams are well on par with CHL's better teams and then for development I think you'd have to look at the system as a whole which would include the aforementioned advantages of the MHL/VHL/KHL system. That paired with the fact that russian players should not drop their unique russian part of the development unfinished at 17 makes me think the better way for russian prospects is to stay in Russia a couple of years longer. After all it didn't destroy Tarasenko's of Kuznetsov's development. While I do admit every case is different. I for example have no trouble at all with Provorov's decision to go to NA really early. There is obviously a glaring hole in the russian system at the spot where defencemen development should be, so it's only logical for a guy like Provorov to try another path and it seems like it wasn't a bad decision.
There are also 2 major factors that influnece the decisions of the players to go to NA. There is that partly russian factor thing about coaches and management in NA who for whatever reason want to have the player in NA as early as possible which is sometimes illogical. I basically thik that a lot of franchises have little idea about russian hockey and just fear they can't evaluate if it's good or bad for a prospect to stay in russian hockey. And then there is the draft factor. At such young age players want to be drafted as high as possible no matter what and for the sake of exposure before the draft go to NA early. I think though while the draft position might affect the future career in a way, it's not that important. But the young guys have minds of their own(or their parents and agents for that matter).
I think in a perfect world every player should carefully evaluate which path is the best for his development(not exposure or draft ranking) longterm. It's not a perfect world though.
A good reference point for future comparison will be how well the u18 team (Russia's version of US NTDP) does this year in the MHL. It's the same team that won 3rd place at the recent Ivan Hlinka tournament. They're currently 2W and 2L in the MHL so far.
And for that same reason it would be a horrible idea for a American/Canadian to leave North America and develop in the MHL at the crucial age of 15-19....even if his dream was to play in the KHL. It's just too risky.
I mean there's a reason why Auston Matthews is playing in the more 'North Americanized' NLA and not the KHL.
Even though in the KHL he'd be facing the 2nd best competition in the world, a move to Russia would entail a huge change in style of play, language, culture, etc. which would have the potential to seriously **** up his development.
Every Russian kid that chooses to play in NA at 15-19 y.o. faces this risk. No wonder so few succeed.
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Back to Vorobyov. Kid's got a good head on his shoulders. Found a lengthy and in-depth interview from after the NHL draft.
(google translate)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fufahockey.ru%2Fmikhail_vorobyov_vibor_stal_surprizom%2F&edit-text=&act=url
Edit: Full games of Toplar's season so far. Vorobyov is #24 in green.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICG7F2D9nmg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3oQZ5HY888
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUkRRDm1fec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=komrHTz0Hpk
(google translate)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fufahockey.ru%2Fmikhail_vorobyov_vibor_stal_surprizom%2F&edit-text=&act=url
Edit: Full games of Toplar's season so far. Vorobyov is #24 in green.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICG7F2D9nmg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3oQZ5HY888
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUkRRDm1fec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=komrHTz0Hpk
Last edited:
Appleyard
Registered User
Vorobyov played earlier today. He was he pointless in a 3-2 SO loss.
He was 9/18 on the dot for 50% and had 4 shots, +/- was 0. He also missed in the SO.
He was 9/18 on the dot for 50% and had 4 shots, +/- was 0. He also missed in the SO.
Appleyard
Registered User
Tolpar lost 2-0 today.
Vorobyov was -1 and 43.8% on the dot.
He did however have 5 shots on goal, the most of any player from either team in the game.
Vorobyov was -1 and 43.8% on the dot.
He did however have 5 shots on goal, the most of any player from either team in the game.
Tripod
I hate this team
- Sep 28, 2014
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The fact that he is getting a decent amount of pucks to the net is encouraging at least. He could just be snake-bitten early on.
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