Prospect Info: Round 3, Pick 90: Matej Tomek, G, Topeka (USHL) --> North Dakota (NCHC)

[deadhead]

Sandstrom is the same age as Tomek???? So wait for one but not the other? Sandstrom is further developed than Tomek.

Both are in the same boat, time is ticking, Tomak took a big step up this year, Sandstrom floundered in the ECHL.
Tomek needs to repeat in a major Euro league, Sandstrom needs to graduate to the AHL and perform.
Fedotov just had a solid rookie season in the KHL.

Fedotov 11/28/96
Sandstrom 1/12/97
Tomek 5/24/97

Ustimenko 1/29/99
Ersson 10/20/99
Ross 7/4/00

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Or when the entire NHL allowed the great Erik Gustafsson to get away! I believe there was a lot of excitement around Radel Fazleev too. Danick Martel another shocking loss when he got almost ten games with Lightning after being waived it was clear asset mismanagement. It's almost like every one of our prospects or players that wasn't acquired via a "bad" trade or wasn't chosen instead of the "right" player in the draft is way better than GMs know.

It's almost like people had an issue with the pattern of letting possibly decent depth players go without giving them a possible chance during a time when the team was employing know bad depth players.

There have been plenty of players on the Flyers over the last 10 years who played significant amounts of games and then were out of the league as soon as they were off the Flyers. The idea is to give those opportunities to young players instead in hopes of getting lucky and catching lightening in a bottle. The team wasn't going to compete anyways so what could be the harm.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

It's almost like people had an issue with the pattern of letting possibly decent depth players go without giving them a possible chance during a time when the team was employing know bad depth players.

There have been plenty of players on the Flyers over the last 10 years who played significant amounts of games and then were out of the league as soon as they were off the Flyers. The idea is to give those opportunities to young players instead in hopes of getting lucky and catching lightening in a bottle. The team wasn't going to compete anyways so what could be the harm.

There is a big difference between saying, "It would be nice to keep depth players" and saying someone needs to be fired every time a marginal prospect is waived or let to walk in free agency, or getting a boner every time a prospect has a good game. Yes, sometimes these guys turn out to be good. I am sure if you look back you can find a handful of prospects that we let walk or waived that turned out to be solid NHLers, and I know someone will talk about when I said the shockingly unfair and ridiculous statement that Philippe Myers's first week in post draft year wasn't something to get excited about. But those same people won't talk about all the players that people cried about losing who we never heard from again.

 

[deadhead]

Pat Maroon (2007) had a decent career since he left.
You have to go back to Justin Williams (2000) and especially Sharpe (2001) for "the ones that got away."
And Dennis Seidenberg (2001), poster child for lack of patience.

Can't think of anyone else,

Nick Cousins has played 324 games, but is a marginal 3rd/4th line forward
Chaput (2010) 169 games
Fraser (2003) 359 games

 

[GapToothedWonder]

There is a big difference between saying, "It would be nice to keep depth players" and saying someone needs to be fired every time a marginal prospect is waived or let to walk in free agency, or getting a boner every time a prospect has a good game. Yes, sometimes these guys turn out to be good. I am sure if you look back you can find a handful of prospects that we let walk or waived that turned out to be solid NHLers, and I know someone will talk about when I said the shockingly unfair and ridiculous statement that Philippe Myers's first week in post draft year wasn't something to get excited about. But those same people won't talk about all the players that people cried about losing who we never heard from again.

Again, if people were calling for firings it's for an overall systematic error. Unless you believe Homer did a good job of drafting and handling prospects from outside of the first round?

Trying to find value outside of the first round was always an issue with Homer. People had an issue with that as the NHL moved into an era when drafting and building from within became more and more important.

Hextall would draft but then rarely give a marginal prospect a chance instead preferring to roll out players in their late 20s with almost no NHL upside. All at a time when the team had no realistic chance to compete for anything then a bottom playoff spot.

You seem to have to trouble understand that when people were complaining about a specific prospect they were really complaining about overall patterns that had been followed for years, more then complaining about any one prospect.

 

[kudymen]

I remember the outrage by certain guy who frequently told people they are not supposed to be excited about a prospect no matter what. It was his big talking point for months.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Again, if people were calling for firings it's for an overall systematic error. Unless you believe Homer did a good job of drafting and handling prospects from outside of the first round?

Trying to find value outside of the first round was always an issue with Homer. People had an issue with that as the NHL moved into an era when drafting and building from within became more and more important.

Hextall would draft but then rarely give a marginal prospect a chance instead preferring to roll out players in their late 20s with almost no NHL upside. All at a time when the team had no realistic chance to compete for anything then a bottom playoff spot.

You seem to have to trouble understand that when people were complaining about a specific prospect they were really complaining about overall patterns that had been followed for years, more then complaining about any one prospect.

There was plenty of Homer bashing going on throughout. This was actual people who were mad that players were let go/traded/whatever the circumstances were. It may have been part of a different problem and we can argue that all day, but someone being upset that the dearly departed Sunshine was let go (and then continuing to say how good he was after he wasn't drafted when he re-entered the draft and how wrong every other GM was (same thing with Gus after being let go and not signed by an NHL team) is a separate thing all together.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I remember the outrage by certain guy who frequently told people they are not supposed to be excited about a prospect no matter what. It was his big talking point for months.

Lol. Oh yes, when I dared say that we should hold off on judgment and not get too excited after a ten game sample size. The horror and absurdity of that statement and wanting to see more and the audacity to later agree with everyone about his talents after he actually proved it! I can't believe I am even allowed to post here!

I also said that about Fazleev when he was among the socring leaders of his junior league in his draft+2 season and people started getting excited about him. Funny no one posts that about or about the fanboys that were getting their hopes up about him. Where are they now? I don't see a lot of clamoring for him to come back from the KHL!

 

[Appleyard]

There was plenty of Homer bashing going on throughout. This was actual people who were mad that players were let go/traded/whatever the circumstances were. It may have been part of a different problem and we can argue that all day, but someone being upset that the dearly departed Sunshine was let go (and then continuing to say how good he was after he wasn't drafted when he re-entered the draft and how wrong every other GM was (same thing with Gus after being let go and not signed by an NHL team) is a separate thing all together.

In Gus's case no other NHL team could resign him.

The Flyers qualified him... and then wanted to bring him back for 2016-17.

But by the time they spoke to him (after he had spoken to them the year before about coming back, but they thought they had too much depth!) he had agreed a two year deal with Avangard Omsk. Meaning the first opportunity any other NHL team could pick him up was summer 2018. When he was turning 30.

He then had some interest even at 30. But decided to go back to Sweden and get ~$400k a year as the best defenseman in the league.


Most of the other cases are "meh, whatever". But Gus would have certainly helped the team from 2014-17 or so defence wise.

 

[kudymen]

Lol. Oh yes, when I dared say that we should hold off on judgment and not get too excited after a ten game sample size. The horror and absurdity of that statement and wanting to see more and the audacity to later agree with everyone about his talents after he actually proved it! I can't believe I am even allowed to post here!

I also said that about Fazleev when he was among the socring leaders of his junior league in his draft+2 season and people started getting excited about him. Funny no one posts that about or about the fanboys that were getting their hopes up about him. Where are they now? I don't see a lot of clamoring for him to come back from the KHL!

Let's not get too excited about our judgments in a Tomek thread

 

[deadhead]

The problem with Holmgren wasn't player development, the lack of success by the "ones that got away" suggests the problem was player acquisition, i.e., bad scouting. Can't develop talent you don't possess.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Fazleev was a depth prospect having a pretty good D+2 year in juniors. People were “excited” that he was possibly developing into a depth prospect that could make the NHL in a lower capacity. For a sixth round pick to that point he was doing pretty well.

No one thought we had the next like Mark Stone or whatever. He ultimately fell short of making the NHL once he got to the AHL which happens.

There is an unknown to this whole process but that doesn’t mean a person’s process towards giving themselves the best chances to come out on the side for the better can’t be criticized.

 

[Striiker]

Gus was better than quite a few defensemen who played here recently. One is still on the team today.

 

[Starat327]

Gus was better than quite a few defensemen who played here recently. One is still on the team today.

Seems maybe a little bit harsh on Ghost, but I guess I can see it.

 

[Striiker]

Seems maybe a little bit harsh on Ghost, but I guess I can see it.

This is why you get hacked.

 

[rinaldo]

Gus was better than quite a few defensemen who played here recently. One is still on the team today.

absolutely. he has had many teams beating down his door for a top 6 role. With so many defensively challenged teams shocked gus has turned them all down. could have received a good pay day.

 

[Appleyard]

absolutely. he has had many teams beating down his door for a top 6 role. With so many defensively challenged teams shocked gus has turned them all down. could have received a good pay day.

First time he was basically "eligible" to sign a contract for anyone in the NHL who was not the Flyers was when he was turning 30 later in the year... and he chose to go back to Sweden (with his young family) for $400k a year as the best defenseman in the league instead of coming back as maybe a bottom pairing defenseman for someone. There was interest... but he basically made a decision in spring 2016 to go to KHL on a 2 year contract. Flyers got back to him seemingly weeks later with interest (after thinking they had too much depth for 2015-16...) for 2016-17. He was already committed for next two years.

 

[deadhead]

First time he was basically "eligible" to sign a contract for anyone in the NHL who was not the Flyers was when he was turning 30 later in the year... and he chose to go back to Sweden (with his young family) for $400k a year as the best defenseman in the league instead of coming back as maybe a bottom pairing defenseman for someone. There was interest... but he basically made a decision in spring 2016 to go to KHL on a 2 year contract. Flyers got back to him seemingly weeks later with interest (after thinking they had too much depth for 2015-16...) for 2016-17. He was already committed for next two years.

If Gus was seen as a NHL starter, and the Flyers weren't willing to give him a chance, other GMs would have offered middle round picks for him, the way Hextall moved McGinn for a 3rd, Marody for a 3rd, and Cousins and Weal were traded for late round picks. These kinds of trades are made all the time.

 

[Appleyard]

If Gus was seen as a NHL starter, and the Flyers weren't willing to give him a chance, other GMs would have offered middle round picks for him, the way Hextall moved McGinn for a 3rd, Marody for a 3rd, and Cousins and Weal were traded for late round picks. These kinds of trades are made all the time.

Not many trades for guys playing in Euro leagues with no transfer agreement. Kubalik is about the only one and a top 6 talent... not a guy with a #4-5 upside. They would have had to offer and then wait a year to bring him over... as he was never not under contract for a team without a transfer agreement.

He waited until right at the deadline in 2014 and the Flyers qualified him so he could not be a UFA.
Then in 2015 was in talks with the Flyers but they thought they had too much depth, and then in 2016 just gave up with them... and then they came and said they wanted him after he had signed a KHL deal already.

Gus did not help himself by basically just getting fed up with the Flyers and Berube over 2014... but he should have been a regular from mid-2012 and it must have just worn thin. I think everyone knows he played himself into the #4-5 role and was just arbitrarily taken off the team for weeks and months at a time when had played well. Then #6s brought in to replace him constantly when he had done nothing wrong.

He expected them to not qualify him I believe initially, and then when they did even though they did not intend to sign him he signed a one year contract so could come back next year if given a spot on the roster.

And Euros turn down NHL deals more than a lot of people in North America think and it just does not get publicised. John Norman and Pius Suter in very recent history from what I know.

 

[rinaldo]

In Gus's case no other NHL team could resign him.

The Flyers qualified him... and then wanted to bring him back for 2016-17.

But by the time they spoke to him (after he had spoken to them the year before about coming back, but they thought they had too much depth!) he had agreed a two year deal with Avangard Omsk. Meaning the first opportunity any other NHL team could pick him up was summer 2018. When he was turning 30.

He then had some interest even at 30. But decided to go back to Sweden and get ~$400k a year as the best defenseman in the league.


Most of the other cases are "meh, whatever". But Gus would have certainly helped the team from 2014-17 or so defence wise.

edit

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Fazleev was a depth prospect having a pretty good D+2 year in juniors. People were “excited” that he was possibly developing into a depth prospect that could make the NHL in a lower capacity. For a sixth round pick to that point he was doing pretty well.

No one thought we had the next like Mark Stone or whatever. He ultimately fell short of making the NHL once he got to the AHL which happens.

There is an unknown to this whole process but that doesn’t mean a person’s process towards giving themselves the best chances to come out on the side for the better can’t be criticized.

I would have to go back and see exactly what was said, but I don't think (at least the initial post) was about him being a depth player. I believe it was about how his point totals make him a steal and so forth and so on. I am sure the conversation devolved into people claiming that I was arguing that we don't need depth players or something like that or that I hate our prospects or was being a contrarian.

The general point of the Fazleev or Gus or [INSERT PROSPECT HERE] is that this board has a tendency to view all prospects as highly promising with NHL futures to varying degrees...unless the prospect was an unpopular choice at the time, in which case that player is inherently bad and can do no good. When the prospect with the promising future doesn't pan out, they are quickly forgotten and no one ever remembers the praise that was laid upon them. When the bad prospect moves on or does well here there are excuses as to why that player was so bad here (or isn't really as good as he is here) but good elsewhere and quickly forgotten. Basically, questioning prospects is bad (unless they were unpopular picks) and hyping prospects is fine (unless they were unpopular picks).

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I was a Gus fan. I was in my 20s. As I’ve aged, my perspective has changed. He was a ‘tweener. Not going to lead PP1, not going to PK, not good enough 5v5 to make up for when you’re caught in your own zone. There’s a reason he played an in-demand position yet wasn’t an NHLer.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I would have to go back and see exactly what was said, but I don't think (at least the initial post) was about him being a depth player. I believe it was about how his point totals make him a steal and so forth and so on. I am sure the conversation devolved into people claiming that I was arguing that we don't need depth players or something like that or that I hate our prospects or was being a contrarian.

The general point of the Fazleev or Gus or [INSERT PROSPECT HERE] is that this board has a tendency to view all prospects as highly promising with NHL futures to varying degrees...unless the prospect was an unpopular choice at the time, in which case that player is inherently bad and can do no good. When the prospect with the promising future doesn't pan out, they are quickly forgotten and no one ever remembers the praise that was laid upon them. When the bad prospect moves on or does well here there are excuses as to why that player was so bad here (or isn't really as good as he is here) but good elsewhere and quickly forgotten. Basically, questioning prospects is bad (unless they were unpopular picks) and hyping prospects is fine (unless they were unpopular picks).

Are you sure we are reading the same boards?

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Are you sure we are reading the same boards?

Probably not.

 

[Tripod]

I would have to go back and see exactly what was said, but I don't think (at least the initial post) was about him being a depth player. I believe it was about how his point totals make him a steal and so forth and so on. I am sure the conversation devolved into people claiming that I was arguing that we don't need depth players or something like that or that I hate our prospects or was being a contrarian.

The general point of the Fazleev or Gus or [INSERT PROSPECT HERE] is that this board has a tendency to view all prospects as highly promising with NHL futures to varying degrees...unless the prospect was an unpopular choice at the time, in which case that player is inherently bad and can do no good. When the prospect with the promising future doesn't pan out, they are quickly forgotten and no one ever remembers the praise that was laid upon them. When the bad prospect moves on or does well here there are excuses as to why that player was so bad here (or isn't really as good as he is here) but good elsewhere and quickly forgotten. Basically, questioning prospects is bad (unless they were unpopular picks) and hyping prospects is fine (unless they were unpopular picks).

Let me chime in.

I am 100% one of the people who was seeing Fazleev's stats and he seemed like a steal. I asked for feedback from those who actually watched him(as I didn't) and I was told by LOD/Flyguy/Stizzle(can't remember which one or may have been all) that he was playing well. But I was also told that his upside at best was as a 3rd liner and not to get too excited over him and that a 4th line role was a more realistic projection if things went well in the AHL and he continued to progress.

Just stating what I remember being told or having read. So my "hopes" went from him maybe having top 6 upside to thinking 4th line was more realistic. Once this site gets fixed we can do some searching to find the exact working on things.

Just how I remember things.