Round 2 Voting Results (HOH Top Goaltenders)

[Canadiens1958]

Martin Brodeur

Adapted easily from midget to junior to the AHL to the NHL:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid[]=587

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/brodema01.html

going from 27 games in midget AAA to over 70 games in the NHL. Spending a minimal amount of time at each level before reaching the NHL.

Brodeur also made a very smooth and beneficial transition from the old leather pads to the new synthetic pads. This enhanced his skating, stamina and athleticism. Compare his GP in midget and junior to the NHL. Also compare his SV% in junior to the NHL.

He regularly adapted to coaches without missing a beat.

He also adapted to the trapezoid and other rule changes that were designed to take away his puckhandling abilities.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I call.

In what way?

I won't even go obscure...how about last year's team...they were a forward-moving, cycling team that relied on an aggressive forecheck and introduced a three-man cycle. They weren't defensive last year, DeBoer isn't a defensive coach...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I won't even go obscure...how about last year's team...they were a forward-moving, cycling team that relied on an aggressive forecheck and introduced a three-man cycle. They weren't defensive last year, DeBoer isn't a defensive coach...

And yet St. Louis was the only team in the league to allow less shots on goal.

Devils were also 27th in shots taken.

Seems defensive minded to me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

And yet St. Louis was the only team in the league to allow less shots on goal.

Devils were also 27th in shots taken.

Seems defensive minded to me.

Don't confuse shots and strategy. Cycling teams are puck possession teams, the puck is controlled by the offense. They hold the puck 200 feet away from their own net. Less puck for the opponent to have.

Pittsburgh has given up very few shots this year, for instance. We're one of the least defensive teams in the league with a very spotty defense to boot. No one would ever call us defensive if they saw us play. By the shots metric though, we must be...

You can't assign numbers to most things in hockey unfortunately...it just doesn't work, too much going on...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Don't confuse shots and strategy. Cycling teams are puck possession teams, the puck is controlled by the offense. They hold the puck 200 feet away from their own net. Less puck for the opponent to have.

Pittsburgh has given up very few shots this year, for instance. We're one of the least defensive teams in the league with a very spotty defense to boot. No one would ever call us defensive if they saw us play. By the shots metric though, we must be...

You can't assign numbers to most things in hockey unfortunately...it just doesn't work, too much going on...

Maybe you should watch the Devils play sometime.

As always, they are excellent in the nuetral zone as well as their own zone. They don't give the opponent much room to do anything.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Read the following:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Dy8rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qZgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6529,236854

Notice how in game five of their series against the Canadiens, the Red Wings had to use an injured Normie Smith, game 4, replaced by Jim Franks, - gone for the season injury. Smith responded with 111 minutes of one goal hockey allowing the Red Wings to make the finals.

Earl Robertson was not a teammate - regular IAHL goalie who went on to play a few seasons for the Americans that the Canadiens had no obligation to allow as a substitute. Rangers allowed Robertson who promptly gave up five goals in game 1 of the finals before the Red Wings adapted their game.

Without an injured Normie Smith in game 5 of the semi finals it is doubtful that the Wings win the SC.

One series of hockey cannot realistically mean more in this project than an entire regular season.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Adapted easily from midget to junior to the AHL to the NHL:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid[]=587

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/brodema01.html

going from 27 games in midget AAA to over 70 games in the NHL. Spending a minimal amount of time at each level before reaching the NHL.

Brodeur also made a very smooth and beneficial transition from the old leather pads to the new synthetic pads. This enhanced his skating, stamina and athleticism. Compare his GP in midget and junior to the NHL. Also compare his SV% in junior to the NHL.

He regularly adapted to coaches without missing a beat.

He also adapted to the trapezoid and other rule changes that were designed to take away his puckhandling abilities.

Brodeur didn't have to adjust to the trapezoid, his defensemen had to. And in typical Devils fashion, it was no problem at all.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Maybe you should watch the Devils play sometime.

As always, they are excellent in the nuetral zone as well as their own zone. They don't give the opponent much room to do anything.

I should? Until this hockey season, I lived in the Devils market for 7 years, I've been to more Devils games than any other team. I'm not sure what you're going for to be honest.

Spacing from the cycle game, albeit mostly a three-man cycle creates NZ issues defensively on possession shifts. As many as three forwards below the goal line, defensemen are required to keep pucks in at the point (in the Devils case, they were often instructed to shoot from the point as opposed to getting involved in the cycle or making other passes - limited in talent and versatility are many Devils d-men, so instructions were simple and direct to prevent confusion). As such, defensemen must be near the boards to keep plays alive, leaving the entire middle of the ice wide open. This was exposed throughout the playoffs - as it would be for many cycling teams with aggressive forechecks.

Devils defensive posture in transition relied upon the willingness of forwards to backcheck, but often it wasn't until very late in the neutral zone or down in the defensive zone that the forwards could fully rejoin the play - sometimes too late, sometimes not.

Your claim that they were a defense-first team is simply false and has yet to be backed. Instead, glossed over with generalities and an aggressive charge ("you should watch [them play]") as an attempt to distract from the matter at hand.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

The key question continues to be avoided. Why was Tim Thomas a nomad in hockey's hinterland for 10+ seasons?

Getting drafted by a team that featured Patrick Roy between the pipes as he (Thomas) was graduating from college, then getting added to a Cujo/Essensa/Salo mix when Edmonton picked up his rights in '98? Also, I don't think there are many people who would argue that teams weren't more negatively biased against prospects who wanted to finish their university first, 15+ years ago. It's seen as a "problem" even today (see Danny Kristo as an example), despite the extra patience shown with prospects "these days".

And "hockey hinterland" isn't exactly fair. There was no KHL in the late 90s. The best leagues outside of North America were in Sweden and Finland, and interestingly enough he excelled in both of them.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I should? Until this hockey season, I lived in the Devils market for 7 years, I've been to more Devils games than any other team. I'm not sure what you're going for to be honest.

Spacing from the cycle game, albeit mostly a three-man cycle creates NZ issues defensively on possession shifts. As many as three forwards below the goal line, defensemen are required to keep pucks in at the point (in the Devils case, they were often instructed to shoot from the point as opposed to getting involved in the cycle or making other passes - limited in talent and versatility are many Devils d-men, so instructions were simple and direct to prevent confusion). As such, defensemen must be near the boards to keep plays alive, leaving the entire middle of the ice wide open. This was exposed throughout the playoffs - as it would be for many cycling teams with aggressive forechecks.

Devils defensive posture in transition relied upon the willingness of forwards to backcheck, but often it wasn't until very late in the neutral zone or down in the defensive zone that the forwards could fully rejoin the play - sometimes too late, sometimes not.

Your claim that they were a defense-first team is simply false and has yet to be backed. Instead, glossed over with generalities and an aggressive charge ("you should watch [them play]") as an attempt to distract from the matter at hand.

Look, if you want to argue the team that allowed the 2nd fewest shots on goal was not a defense first team, fine. The Devils. Lou Lamirello's Devils. Lou's teams are always defense first.

Clearly no need to continue on this topic.

 

[Michael Farkas]

There was the Russian SuperLeague, the predecessor to the KHL.

Once again though, glorification continues, other facts ignored. Half truths to, I assume, justify statistics so that they can be used later in other situations.

His career as a sub-NHL journeyman is justified with, essentially, "but he was good in the third or fourth or fifth best leagues in the world...and college!" (though other goalies are not granted such things, mostly because most of them were actually wanted by NHL teams from the get-go...).

Flip side of the coin. North American minor pro leagues:
98-99 Hamilton (AHL):
Steve Passmore (54 GP) - 2.23 / .929
Chris Wickenheiser (2 GP) - 2.25 /.933
Eric Heffler (2 GP) - 2.52 / .939
Mike Minard (11 GP) - 2.79 / .922
Tim Thomas (15 GP) - 3.23 / .905

A full goal per game more than the starter (a minor league journeyman himself) - clearly the worst statistically by quite a margin.

1999-2000 Detroit Vipers (IHL) -
Rich Parent (10 GP) - 2.56 / .923
Kevin Hodson (9 GP) - 2.61 / .917
Trevor Koenig (21 GP) - 2.85 / .913
Zac Bierk (15 GP) - 3.26 / .914
Tim Thomas (36 GP) - 3.56 / .892

Again, sticks out like a sore thumb.

2002-03 Providence Bruins (AHL) -
Andrew Raycroft (39 GP) - 2.50 / .917
Tim Thomas (35 GP) - 2.87 / .906
Matt Underhill (7 GP) - 3.08 / .901

Thomas, statistically, clearly a step down from a career minor leaguer/fringe NHLer in Raycroft.

USA Hockey did not trust him in World Championships situations, did not elect him to Olympics except for '10 where he spent just enough time in one game to surrender a goal - Finland's only goal in a 6-1 loss...):
'95 WCs - Pat Jablonski started over him.
'96 WCs - Parris Duffus started over him.
'99 WCs - Parris Duffus started over him.
'05 WCs - Rick Dipietro and Ty Conklin started over him.
'08 WCs - Split time with Robert Esche and Craig Anderson (Esche played the most and when it came time for elimination games, Thomas did not dress)

Even in low level tournaments, he was not pressed into service. And these aren't exactly quality netminders that are beating him out for these jobs. It's amazing that he's auto-considered to be an elite clutch goaltender given that he doesn't have all that strong of a resume to boast such a claim.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Look, if you want to argue the team that allowed the 2nd fewest shots on goal was not a defense first team, fine. The Devils. Lou Lamirello's Devils. Lou's teams are always defense first.

Clearly no need to continue on this topic.

In blackjack, you might receive half of your bet back for this play. Traditionally though, it's only available at the first decision of a hand...not after a couple of hits.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

There was the Russian SuperLeague, the predecessor to the KHL.

Once again though, glorification continues, other facts ignored. Half truths to, I assume, justify statistics so that they can be used later in other situations.

His career as a sub-NHL journeyman is justified with, essentially, "but he was good in the third or fourth or fifth best leagues in the world...and college!" (though other goalies are not granted such things, mostly because most of them were actually wanted by NHL teams from the get-go...).

You assume totally incorrectly. If someone asks how Thomas can get lost in "hockey hinterland", consider the question largely answered by his insisting on graduating, the timing of which resulted in getting lost in depth between two of the larger cult hero goalies in their markets in the immediate 4-5 years that followed his graduation. Sweet effort typing out all those stats, though.

A further question arises when someone completely dismisses his play in Europe, though. Did Boston have a crystal ball when they signed him in '02, or did his play over there possibly merit the look he finally got from a team disappointed in their goaltending depth (somehow Robbie Tallas donned a Bruins jersey over 80 times in preceding seasons, and they obviously weren't keen to keep Dafoe into his 30s)? Thomas was also pretty damn good in Providence in '03/04, which is only the AHL, but it's at least North American hockey. He adapted back to it pretty well down there, it would seem.

Having said all that, there are still reasons why I, personally, rank someone like Parent much, much, much higher than Thomas as it stands right now - despite the common distillations via Vezina or "exceptional" NHL season counting, etc. Thing is, though, we have examples of players like Dzurilla garnering high praise via votes for doing nothing dissimilar domestically to what Thomas was doing during his time in Finland/Sweden. How consistently is everyone balancing their bias and "correction factors"?

I'm a Habs fan, so I couldn't care less about Thomas. It's striking to me, though, how many examples of polarizing criteria are being mix-mashed and selectively applied to one/some players more/less than others in these voting discussions.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Once again though, glorification continues, other facts ignored. Half truths to, I assume, justify statistics so that they can be used later in other situations.

I don't know why I need to bring this up in every thread (although I appreciate the passions expressed).

And this isn't meant to be directed solely at you.

Stop questioning other posters' motives. It will result in supplemental discipline.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Once again though, glorification continues, other facts ignored.

I really don't think they're being ignored. If Thomas had all those accolades, awards, high-end stats, etc and DIDN'T have blemishes on his record, we'd be talking about a shoo-in for the top-20 and a dark horse for top-10. What would Bernie Parent or Tony Esposito have on a guy like that?

But he does in fact have blemishes, and that drops him to the back-end of the list. He has Bower-esque longevity, some weak seasons at low levels and created a bit of a firestorm for his team in his final season. And, most importantly, there's not a whole lot of doubt that he received a lot of help from his defense in constructing those eye-popping numbers.

So yeah, I think he does in fact get penalized for those things here. Hell, I argued Rollins ahead of him and at one point listed all of Cheevers, Connell, Liut and Kerr over him. But when it came time to scrutinize each of those guys against each other, the fact remains that Thomas was absolutely dominant for a substantial amount of time in the National Hockey League during a highly competitive era. How can you take that away from him based on 15 AHL games in his second pro season, or a half-season behind a putrid IHL team?

I mean, even if you want to focus on that 2002-03 season in Providence where he put up average numbers in tandem with Raycroft. Ok, not a super-great season for him. What happened the next year? .941 over a greater sample of games, and not because the team got any better. Can you explain that? Is there a realistic way to explain that other than a guy simply having a better year and playing closer to his ultimate potential? Starting in that 03-04 season, he had 8-of-9 consecutive seasons posting a .915 or better (much better) in three different leagues, behind at least five different coaches. Is there any way to explain that other than just flat-out being a good goalie during that time period?

His career as a sub-NHL journeyman is justified with, essentially, "but he was good in the third or fourth or fifth best leagues in the world...and college!" (though other goalies are not granted such things, mostly because most of them were actually wanted by NHL teams from the get-go...).

I recall one Domink Hasek getting skewered for struggling in the IHL. Again, I think the supposed double-standard here is being overplayed.

Thomas, statistically, clearly a step down from a career minor leaguer/fringe NHLer in Raycroft.

Raycroft was not seen as a fringe NHLer until after the lockout. I'm sure you know that.