Round 2, Vote 2 (HOH Top Centers)

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Hawkey Town 18, Nov 3, 2013.

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  1. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

    MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

    Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

    Round 2
    • The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
    • Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
    • Top 4 players will be added to the list
    • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
    • After Vote 5 (when we have a list of the top 20 centers), we may increase the number of players added per round to 5. Participants will be allowed to vote on whether to increase the number added per round to 5 or to stay at 4 per round
    • If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 or 5 players in certain rounds
    • The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

    These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

    Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
    • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
    • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
    • Please treat other debaters with respect
    • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
    • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

    Eliglible Voters (23):
    bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

    All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.
     
    Last edited by moderator TheDevilMadeMe: Nov 4, 2013
  2. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    Vote 2 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Tuesday, November 12th at 11:00pm EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday, November 10th.

    We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should either resubmit it or contact the person collecting ballots to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

    Vote 2 will be for places 5 through 8 on the Top 60 list.

    Due to where the natural break occurred in Round 1 voting, there will be 10 eligible candidates for Vote 2. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

    Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

    Bobby Clarke
    Phil Esposito
    Newsy Lalonde
    Mark Messier
    Stan Mikita
    Frank Nighbor
    Joe Sakic
    Fred Cyclone Taylor
    Bryan Trottier
    Steve Yzerman
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
  3. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Preliminary thoughts on new candidates:

    I was happy the Round 1 voting worked out where we can add Sakic and Yzerman at the same time, as well as the Nighbor, Taylor, Lalonde trio. I do have clear favorites out of those groups, however.

    I think Sakic and Nighbor both deserve serious consideration for the top 4 this round - IMO, they are on the same tier as the leftovers from last round. I will be posting a lot on Joe Sakic this round - I think Sakic's prime can be underrated for 2 reasons - 1) it happened at the height of the dead puck era so the raw stats aren't as high; 2) it came on the heels of Gretzky/Lemieux domination.

    I can't see considering Yzerman or Lalonde for my top 4. I see Yzerman as a small but clear step down from the Sakic/Messier/etc tier, and Lalonde a small but clear step down from Nighbor.

    Taylor is something of a wild card for me.
     
  4. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Can anyone knock Stan Mikita out of #1 this round (and #5 overall)?

    I think Clarke and Esposito probably had peaks/primes of similar quality to Mikita, but Mikita was an impact player for so much longer. While his offensive prime ended abruptly after 1970, he was still an impact two-way center all the way until 1979.

    What about Mark Messier? He's one player who Mikita doesn't have a clear advantage over in terms of longevity as an impact player. Mikita has a clear regular season advantage (at least in terms of consistency as a scorer in his prime), and Messier has a clear advantage in the playoffs, no matter how you look at it. Are we sure Mikita should rank over Messier? I feel like Messier was the one of the nine candidates last round who we didn't talk about all that much.
     
  5. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Yzerman vs. Sakic

    Cyclone vs. Newsy

    These are longstanding debates and hopefully we'll approach it with an open mind, especially since it's been an open question as to which was better.
     
  6. ChiTownPhilly

    ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Fifteen eligible voters considered Mikita one of the top-5 centers of all-time... seven did not. Last round of voting showed less space between Morenz & Mikita than between Mikita and the next highest vote-getter... Clarke. Probably not gonna happen.

    An interesting "beta-project" would be to place an order on the Nighbor/Lalonde/Taylor troika. About the best thumbnail argument I can come up with is that HHoF voters, who had a fresher memory of them that all of us, put Nighbor and Taylor in the Hall in 1947- but waited on Lalonde until 1950.

    The Nighbor dilemma is just how much credit does he deserve for being on some historically great Ottawa teams-- which included a handful of HoFers... notably the continually underrated Clint Benedict, but also (for a few seasons) Sprague Cleghorn and a budding young blueliner named King Clancy. To give demerits to Nighbor on this basis has the potential to lead to a circularity fallacy- one that (I'd argue) is also working against Trottier. How great can player A be, helped by HoFers B & C? How great can player B be, helped by HoFers A & C?... and so on...

    Once we get the order of these three right (and right now, I'm leaning Taylor/Nighbor/Lalonde), we should then think about whether the ten best centers in hockey history includes only one that played prior to WWII.
     
  7. bigbuffalo313

    bigbuffalo313 Registered User

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    I must of really underrated Nighbor on my original list

    I would still go Lalonde/Taylor/Nighbor. I want to see the arguments to help influence my decision.

    I would also have Sakic ahead of Yzerman
     
  8. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    Nighbor's achievements are becoming overinflated here.
     
  9. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    Only two certitudes in this round for me :

    - Mikita and Clarke go 1st and 2nd
    - Taylor isn't in my Top-8.
     
  10. ted1971

    ted1971 History Of Hockey

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    Mikita & Clarke are My top 2 right now. After that, it will be between Sakic, Messier, Nighbor. I agree that Yzerman is a step below Sakic and Esposito is below Mikita. The wild card for me is Lalonde, as I have to dig a bit deeper in where to rank Him.
     
  11. ehhedler

    ehhedler Registered User

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    The thing with Taylor is that he moved to the center position first when he came to Vancouver, at age 28, and before that in Houghton, Ottawa and Renfrew he played rover and cover point, and it probably affected his early offensive numbers quite a bit. Newsy also played a bit rover, but not cover point what I know.
     
  12. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Frank Nighbor

    Introductory:

    http://ottawahockeylegends.blogspot.ca/2011/01/frank-nighbor.html

    Note the respect Howie Morenz and Frank Selke had for Frank Nighbor.

    From The Gazette, 1934, D.A.L. MacDonald:

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mEswAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XKgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2917,2172505

    Excellent description of Frank Nighbor's overall game.

    Previously, Frank Nighbor's ability to shutdown or neutralize Joe Malone has been documented.

    There are other considerations as well - Cyclone Taylor was on one SC winning team - 1915, with Frank Nighbor as a teammate and the defensive conscience on the team.
     
  13. ChiTownPhilly

    ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Yeah
    The Esposito-Mikita paradox, in a nutshell:

    People place a mental asterisk in front of Esposito's accomplishments, due to being a teammate of Orr and potting points in competition against players in the early years of the expansion era.

    People do not place a mental asterisk in front of Mikita's accomplishments, in spite of being a teammate of Hull and acquiring a reputation for two-way play in competition against players in the early years of the expansion era.
     
  14. Plural

    Plural Registered User

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    We all have our own tiers. But do you actually have Sakic at the same "tier" as Messier and Yzerman is one "tier" below?

    I always thought that these two are on the same tier, with Sakic being in the upper end and Yzerman in the lower end of that same tier.
     
  15. BraveCanadian

    BraveCanadian Registered User

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    To me they are extremely close.

    IMO Yzerman peaked higher both offensively and defensively - but not at the same time - while Sakic rounded into a good all around guy with greater longevity.

    My head puts Sakic right before Yzerman just like I drafted him in the ATD.. my gut says they are practically equal.
     
  16. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    Pretty much my feelings on these 2 guys as well.

    Both were great scorers whose stock rose when joined by equally good (at least peakwise) European team mates and then team success followed.

    Both guys have a strong push for top 4 this round IMO, as the 90's might have been the best decade ever for centers.
     
  17. pluppe

    pluppe Registered User

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    I think Clarke should be deducted several points for being a disgrace to the game.





    The videos above show Clarke attacking players in ways that have no place on the ice or anywhere else in a civilised society. That he does it agains the other teams top player or captain and against international competition where the consequences are smaller just makes it more psychotic. I would also consider it cheating as it betters your odds in an illegal way.

    Sure, Messier and others had their elbows and whatnot but I believe that could atleast be argued as part of the game. What Clarke does in these videos is not, never was and never will be. Based on intent to injure I think they are worse than Bertuzzi on Moore.

    If you can imagine him doing this to Bobby Orr in a stanley cup game 6 and not holding it against him, then fine, but if you would then you should not treat this any differently.

    Rant over.
     
  18. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    This.

    Also, I hope to see some good cases for Sakic and Yzerman, for going by my original list, they'd be the last of the group here.
     
  19. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    In a nut shell, that's it; it's just where you wanna weigh it; I think Yzerman GREATER but Sakic was pretty SUBLIME.

    The eyeball test says Yzerman was more skilled and had a bigger impact on games and in terms of peak play when it mattered most. I have often thought Stevie Y ahead by a hair, but really one needs to split hairs with them. It'd be a travesty to have a few guys between them in the rankings, however they end up.
     
  20. jigglysquishy

    jigglysquishy Registered User

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    I think Mikita and Clarke are an easy top two hear. We've heard the Yzerman/Sakic debate for ages, but it'll be nice to hear it again.

    Debating the LaLonde/Taylor/Nighbor trio should be a treat. I have a feeling a lot of us are going to see major changes when this debate happens.
     
  21. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    What makes Bobby Clarke any better than Frank Nighbor? They seem like equals to me, both offensively and defensively. And Nighbor was the linchpin of a dynasty.

    Joe Sakic absolutely murders Clarke (and Trottier and Yzerman) in terms of longevity as a top 5/10/20 scorer. And I would say Sakic was at least as good as any of them, and probably better in the playoffs: one of the best Conn Smythes ever in 1996, and easily the best forward in the playoffs again in 2001. Not to mention MVP of the 2002 Olympics. So Sakic's regular season peak/prime would have to be far enough below those guys for him to still be ranked below. And I'm not convinced that it was.

    Top 10 scoring finishes:


    Top 20 scoring finishes since 1967:

     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  22. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    Maybe I am misunderstanding you but this sounds like you think Yzerman was a more clutch player thN Sakic...I thought this was an area where there was a clear edge for Sakic who time and time again came up with big goals/points in big games...in fact I think Sakic is one of the best clutch players ever.
     
  23. Ohashi_Jouzu*

    Ohashi_Jouzu* Registered User

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    Because Esposito and Orr played at the same time, for the most part, while Mikita and Hull played on different lines when they were making hay. Messier gets more similar treatment to Mikita, having been an occasional linemate of someone as great as Gretzky in situations like the PP, but making a name for himself on another line for the most part. If I were voting, it might be these two that I'd have the hardest time sorting out, tbh. Messier's career value, especially wrt playoffs, is the big wrinkle though.
     
  24. DaveG

    DaveG Global Moderator

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    Right now leaning towards a top 4 of:

    Mikita
    Clarke
    Neighbor
    Trottier

    Esposito and Messier are just missing the mark for me.

    I don't really foresee any of the other new guys cracking my top 4, though I've said that in the past and things have changed. The ordering of them will be what's interesting to see though in how that pans out.
     
  25. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    During his prime Clarke was always the clear cut best offensive player on his team. The same can't be said of Nighbor...on the other hand Nighbors teams were more successful...both of these can be attributed to different team situations. Tough call.
     

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