Round 2, Vote 2 (HFNYR Top Goalies All-Time)

[Crease]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 6 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrator may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 6 players.
• Top 3 players will be added to the final results list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 3 places with remaining players until a list of 6 goalies is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eligible Voters (10):
bernmeister; Cake or Death; Chief; Crease; eKardz; haohmaru; Greg02; mike14; Ratelleitlikeitis; Screw You Rick Nash

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Post #2 of every voting thread will contain the dates and candidates up for vote.

Click to read more...

 

[Crease]

Vote 2 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Wednesday, August 13. You may PM votes to Crease starting on Monday, August 10.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 2 will be for places 4 through 6 on the Top 6 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Chuck Rayner
Mike Richter
John Roach
John Vanbiesbrouck
Gilles Villemure
Lorne Worsley

 

[Crease]

I really do think Rayner was the best goalie of this bunch. Certainly doesn't have the team accomplishments though.

Do any of the newcomers have a case for the top 3 this round?

 

[Cake or Death]

I apologize, but I'm a little confused. The first post in bold says to submit top 6 players, the second post say in bold 4-6. Are we submitting a top 6 again or only our 4-6?

 

[Greg02]

I apologize, but I'm a little confused. The first post in bold says to submit top 6 players, the second post say in bold 4-6. Are we submitting a top 6 again or only our 4-6?

We submit a top 6, and the three highest vote getters will be places 4-6 on our list (the others don't get ranked).

 

[Crease]

I apologize, but I'm a little confused. The first post in bold says to submit top 6 players, the second post say in bold 4-6. Are we submitting a top 6 again or only our 4-6?

Submit a ranked list of all six candidates, which will help determine spots 4-6 on the Top Goalies list. Spots 1-3 have been finalized (Lundqvist, Giacomin, Kerr). The reason we do it this way is that a candidate gets more points for finishing 4th on a ballot than he does for finishing 6th. This matters when tallying up all the ballots.

 

[Cake or Death]

Thanks

 

[bernmeister]

I really do think Rayner was the best goalie of this bunch. Certainly doesn't have the team accomplishments though.

Do any of the newcomers have a case for the top 3 this round?

not an official vote, realize we are just spitballin here til later...

1st impression is
Chuck Rayner for reasons previously noted by his staunch advocate, Crease
Mike Richter for accomplishments known/fresh to mind of most of us
Gilles Villemure for accomplishments I still remember fondly. Richter is lucky I owe him for that Cup, or this might be flipped, I tells ya!

John Roach Need to know more, pls.
John Vanbiesbrouck Great in his prime not as good as the rest
Lorne Worsley saw end of his career, another era. somewhat overrated and underrated all at the same time. Deserves points for no mask. THAT took balls.
Real balls \
not the artificial kind...

 

[eKardz]

not an official vote, realize we are just spitballin here til later...

1st impression is
Chuck Rayner for reasons previously noted by his staunch advocate, Crease
Mike Richter for accomplishments known/fresh to mind of most of us
Gilles Villemure for accomplishments I still remember fondly. Richter is lucky I owe him for that Cup, or this might be flipped, I tells ya!

John Roach Need to know more, pls.
John Vanbiesbrouck Great in his prime not as good as the rest
Lorne Worsley saw end of his career, another era. somewhat overrated and underrated all at the same time. Deserves points for no mask. THAT took balls.
Real balls \
not the artificial kind...

John Ross Roach was a badass back in his day. The season after the rangers won in 28, Ross started every single game the next four seasons, lead the league in games played. He was only 5'5" and 130 lbs soaking wet. He started way before the Rangers and won cup in his rookie season, '22 with the Toronto St. Pats, for which he later became the captain of the team.

In 28-29 he played 44 games, 21 wins, 13 shutouts 1.41 gaa
The next season was kind of off, but not for his lack of effort finishing with 3.1 gaa and 17 and 17 record.
30-31 19 wins 16 losses, and 7 shutouts 1.89 gaa in 44 games
31-32 48 games played, 23 wins, 17 losses, 9 shutouts 2.23 gaa

when this guy was on, he was on. one of the best in the league during those four seasons, then fluke aitkenhead comes in wins in 33, good in 34, then forever in obscurity. That 32 season, Roach was a first team all star, but bombed in the playoffs against his former leafs causing him to be traded to detroit.

I wish roach had more time, or one more season to hoist the cup as a ranger in 33 when he barely lost the Vezina. He would've handled that playoff no question and then been solidified as a Ranger great.

 

[bernmeister]

John Ross Roach was a badass back in his day. The season after the rangers won in 28, Ross started every single game the next four seasons, lead the league in games played. He was only 5'5" and 130 lbs soaking wet. He started way before the Rangers and won cup in his rookie season, '22 with the Toronto St. Pats, for which he later became the captain of the team.

In 28-29 he played 44 games, 21 wins, 13 shutouts 1.41 gaa
The next season was kind of off, but not for his lack of effort finishing with 3.1 gaa and 17 and 17 record.
30-31 19 wins 16 losses, and 7 shutouts 1.89 gaa in 44 games
31-32 48 games played, 23 wins, 17 losses, 9 shutouts 2.23 gaa

when this guy was on, he was on. one of the best in the league during those four seasons, then fluke aitkenhead comes in wins in 33, good in 34, then forever in obscurity. That 32 season, Roach was a first team all star, but bombed in the playoffs against his former leafs causing him to be traded to detroit.

I wish roach had more time, or one more season to hoist the cup as a ranger in 33 when he barely lost the Vezina. He would've handled that playoff no question and then been solidified as a Ranger great.

Thank you, wow this was tremendous!
Feel free to add more if you have/wish.

 

[Cake or Death]

John Ross Roach was a badass back in his day. The season after the rangers won in 28, Ross started every single game the next four seasons, lead the league in games played. He was only 5'5" and 130 lbs soaking wet. He started way before the Rangers and won cup in his rookie season, '22 with the Toronto St. Pats, for which he later became the captain of the team.

In 28-29 he played 44 games, 21 wins, 13 shutouts 1.41 gaa
The next season was kind of off, but not for his lack of effort finishing with 3.1 gaa and 17 and 17 record.
30-31 19 wins 16 losses, and 7 shutouts 1.89 gaa in 44 games
31-32 48 games played, 23 wins, 17 losses, 9 shutouts 2.23 gaa

when this guy was on, he was on. one of the best in the league during those four seasons, then fluke aitkenhead comes in wins in 33, good in 34, then forever in obscurity. That 32 season, Roach was a first team all star, but bombed in the playoffs against his former leafs causing him to be traded to detroit.

I wish roach had more time, or one more season to hoist the cup as a ranger in 33 when he barely lost the Vezina. He would've handled that playoff no question and then been solidified as a Ranger great.

Nice writeup! Only on my own ranking system I had Roach winning no awards in NY, so I double-checked based on what you said. All accounts I am seeing, he bombed in the playoffs, was traded to Detroit, then was selected first AST. Excellent writeup nonetheless. Thanks

 

[bernmeister]

taking into account great commentary about JRR, I am still going with my preliminary.
Those who want to change my mind, make your case, you have like 24 hours.

current vote is/will be as per the following order:
Chuck Rayner
Mike Richter
Gilles Villemure

John Roach
John Vanbiesbrouck
Lorne Worsley

 

[Cake or Death]

taking into account great commentary about JRR, I am still going with my preliminary.
Those who want to change my mind, make your case, you have like 24 hours.

current vote is/will be as per the following order:
Chuck Rayner
Mike Richter
Gilles Villemure

John Roach
John Vanbiesbrouck
Lorne Worsley

To be somewhat blunt, I think having Villemure and Roach ahead of Vanbiesbrouck is catastrophic. Villemure "won" a Vezina when it was awarded to the team that allowed the fewest goals. He only played 34 games that season. Giacomin had like 60 percent of the team's starts that season, led the league in shutouts, and played almost all the playoff games too. Villemure basically played 5 full seasons in NY, mostly backup or platoon, and only once did he play more than 40 games. And even while time was somewhat split between him and Giacomin regular season, Giacomin was the one who played 80 percent of the playoff games. Not sure a 5 season backup/platoon guy who is playing few of the playoff games is a top 6 guy ahead of VBK.

Roach posted decent numbers, but he had what is likely the most powerhouse NYR team of all-time in front of him. The Rangers won the Cup the season before Roach came in and they won it again the very first season he was gone, but failed to do so with Roach.

VBK wins a Vezina, a 1 AST, comes in 5th in Hart Voting, 3 top 5 finishes in wins, 3 top 5 finishes in shutouts, 3 top 5 finishes in GAA, 2 top 5 finishes in save pct. VBK exceeds Richter in all those categories, and did so in far fewer seasons and about 200 fewer games in NY. VBK may not have the playoff resume Richter does, but I still thought his 86 playoff performance was def stronger than Richter's 94 showing. Richter had the good fortune of an excellent team in front of him. I could see Rayner or Richter ahead of VBK, but not anyone else still in the voting scheme, and certainly not Roach or Villemure. Villemure shouldn't be top 10 imho. Just my two cents.

 

[bernmeister]

To be somewhat blunt, I think having Villemure and Roach ahead of Vanbiesbrouck is catastrophic. Villemure "won" a Vezina when it was awarded to the team that allowed the fewest goals. He only played 34 games that season. Giacomin had like 60 percent of the team's starts that season, led the league in shutouts, and played almost all the playoff games too. Villemure basically played 5 full seasons in NY, mostly backup or platoon, and only once did he play more than 40 games. And even while time was somewhat split between him and Giacomin regular season, Giacomin was the one who played 80 percent of the playoff games. Not sure a 5 season backup/platoon guy who is playing few of the playoff games is a top 6 guy ahead of VBK.

Roach posted decent numbers, but he had what is likely the most powerhouse NYR team of all-time in front of him. The Rangers won the Cup the season before Roach came in and they won it again the very first season he was gone, but failed to do so with Roach.

VBK wins a Vezina, a 1 AST, comes in 5th in Hart Voting, 3 top 5 finishes in wins, 3 top 5 finishes in shutouts, 3 top 5 finishes in GAA, 2 top 5 finishes in save pct. VBK exceeds Richter in all those categories, and did so in far fewer seasons and about 200 fewer games in NY. VBK may not have the playoff resume Richter does, but I still thought his 86 playoff performance was def stronger than Richter's 94 showing. Richter had the good fortune of an excellent team in front of him. I could see Rayner or Richter ahead of VBK, but not anyone else still in the voting scheme, and certainly not Roach or Villemure. Villemure shouldn't be top 10 imho. Just my two cents.

I will not overly penalize a player, any player, for being on a bad team, and without being unduly punitive, try to factor if they are on a great team.

That said, I would agree to reconsider bumping VBK ahead of Roach. They both seem to have a few short really superior seasons, and then some good or mixed play the balance of their careers, including post Ranger years.

However, I take exception to the put down of Villemure.
I saw GV those 5 years. NO ONE played the angles with the eye like he did. He got beat one time because, as the camera showed, Orr beat him once side the width of the puck, so the opposite side next time Villy gave him less ---- And Orr stood the puck upright to get it through!!

While Eddie Giac deserved to be the starter, and got those games cause he wanted to play that many, the Rangers lost NOTHING with Giles Vil in nets, There was full confidence who ever was in net, it was 1a or 1b.

The greater quantity of achievement + cup compel me to go with Richter.
But Villemure was no less the goalie.

No to suggest Beezer was chopped liver, but while he could be ridiculous when in his zone (like most Gs when hot), John was otherwise above average but ordinary. Villemure was better; the rare odd game aside, he was always special.

 

[Cake or Death]

I will not overly penalize a player, any player, for being on a bad team, and without being unduly punitive, try to factor if they are on a great team.

That said, I would agree to reconsider bumping VBK ahead of Roach. They both seem to have a few short really superior seasons, and then some good or mixed play the balance of their careers, including post Ranger years.

However, I take exception to the put down of Villemure.
I saw GV those 5 years. NO ONE played the angles with the eye like he did. He got beat one time because, as the camera showed, Orr beat him once side the width of the puck, so the opposite side next time Villy gave him less ---- And Orr stood the puck upright to get it through!!

While Eddie Giac deserved to be the starter, and got those games cause he wanted to play that many, the Rangers lost NOTHING with Giles Vil in nets, There was full confidence who ever was in net, it was 1a or 1b.

The greater quantity of achievement + cup compel me to go with Richter.
But Villemure was no less the goalie.

No to suggest Beezer was chopped liver, but while he could be ridiculous when in his zone (like most Gs when hot), John was otherwise above average but ordinary. Villemure was better; the rare odd game aside, he was always special.

I also saw Villemure play. The problem is, he had an incredibly minimal NHL career. He played the majority of his career in the minors, didn't really crack the NHL till he was 30 or so, and in the end he simply did not play all too many NHL games. Like 200 games or something, no? You are correct about 1a and 1b. But he still was the guy who played fewer games and was generally not the guy chosen in crunch time: the playoffs.

 

[bernmeister]

I also saw Villemure play. The problem is, he had an incredibly minimal NHL career. He played the majority of his career in the minors, didn't really crack the NHL till he was 30 or so, and in the end he simply did not play all too many NHL games. Like 200 games or something, no? You are correct about 1a and 1b. But he still was the guy who played fewer games and was generally not the guy chosen in crunch time: the playoffs.

1a and 1b seals the deal on Gillie v. Giaco.
Villemure vs. the rest is open to discussion.
I appreciate your proverbial 2 cents, which I value more highly.

However, my opinion of the Villemur-meister stands!

 

[Cake or Death]

1a and 1b seals the deal on Gillie v. Giaco.
Villemure vs. the rest is open to discussion.
I appreciate your proverbial 2 cents, which I value more highly.

However, my opinion of the Villemur-meister stands!

Haha... was not really trying to change your view on Villemure, more that I think VBK gets under-rated. Did you notice an interesting thing happen to both Richter and VBK in 93-94? That season, VBK went to Florida and both he and Richter knew they were the starters, not in a platoon. That season, Richter's GAA drops from 3.82 to 2.57, his save pct spikes from .886 to .910. VBK's GAA drops from 3.31 to 2.52, his save pct increases from .900 to .924. Indicates the platoon may have hindered those two.

But I don't think VBK was merely a bit above average. At age 30 he won a 2 AST and was a Vezina Finalist, to go along with his the Vezina and 1 AST he won at age 22. 30 was the age Villemure finally cracked his way into the league. I just think people forget that VBK was very good for us and I always thought the platoon hurt him.

VBK had 4 straight seasons finishing top 6 in Vezina voting, then started platooning and only had one top 10 finish those 4 seasons. Then he's forced out of NY, no more platooning, and 4 straight top 10 Vezina finishes. The 8 seasons surrounding the platoon, 4 prior to it and the 4 after, his average Vezina placement those 8 seasons was top 5, with a 4.75 average (he finished 1, 6, 6, 4 - then platoon seasons with once finishing 6th - then he's the starter again and finishes 2, 5, 7, 7). That's a really good 12 season stretch, especially in an era where guys like Belfour, Roy, Hasek and Brodeur are playing.

Generally, he performed a lot better than Richter, who placed 3, 8, 6, 5 in his entire career in Vezina voting. Richter did have better playoff numbers, but had better teams in front of him. But VBK had an amazing season in 85-86, and an excellent playoff, and likewise had an amazing playoff run in 96 in Fla. I thought he was a really good goalie and easily top 10. I thought Richter's career was a lot more average, but gets elevated because he won a Cup with an exceptional team in front of him. I still felt Richter wasn't quite as good as either Brodeur or McLean in the 94 playoffs, but had the better team. But in comparing careers, I thought VBK was comfortably, no contest, the better goalie than Richter. I think Richter tends to get fairly over-rated due to a team accomplishment and VBK tends to get punished for it.

 

[Chief]

Has anybody heard from Crease lately? Looks like he hasn't been on in over a month and never responded to emails I sent, which is not like him.

 

[bernmeister]

Has anybody heard from Crease lately? Looks like he hasn't been on in over a month and never responded to emails I sent, which is not like him.

I share your concern.

I understand he has extensive studies or something similar, but even with such an add on, it is not like him to be running totally silent.

Let us have good intentions, best wishes and/or prayers (whichever floats your boat) and hope to hear some good news soon.

Powers that be...... pls jump in when you get something.

 

[bernmeister]

Crease,

hoping you are well, haven't heard cause you were 'kidnapped' by
AMAZON WOMEN ON THE MOON!!!!!!!

and are too busy fighting them off.