Prospect Info: Round 2, Pick #50: Adam Ginning, D, Linkoping HC (SHL)

Discussion in 'Philadelphia Flyers' started by GKJ, Jun 23, 2018.

  1. Striiker Wear a mask

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    The fact that they're called "defensemen" is such a problem because it causes these stereotype issues.

    All that matters is that a player is a net positive. Doesn't matter how they do it.
     
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  2. Starat327 HFFlyers Resident 'Beer Foodie' Sponsor

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    Anyone wanna talk about Travis Sanheim in this thread? Seems like an appropriate place?
     
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  3. Striiker Wear a mask

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    Isn't it funny that the people who complained about Sanheim all last year are the same people who love Ginning?

    Surely not a coincidence.
     
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  4. FLYguy3911 Registered User

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    If you look back at just about every top end defenseman's career arch, they produced at high-end/elite levels prior to the NHL. It doesn't just magically come together in the best league in the world.

    Raw points aren't everything at the non-NHL levels, but they can be used as a snapshot of a player's skill level, hockey sense, consistency, etc. If you make enough high percentage plays, with usage, you are going to put up points. It's quite simple. I often like to point out Sanheim's historic last season in the WHL. On a pretty mediocre to below average team, he was held scoreless in 10 games all season...as a defenseman. He made tons of high percentage plays that added up at the end of the day. Yeah he's smart and skilled, but that shows remarkable game-to-game consistency. It shouldn't have come as a shock that he produced at a high rate (among other things) in the NHL...given usage to match that skill level.

    Yes.
     
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  5. Larry44 Grizzled Veteran

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    Or true, but W. :)
     
  6. Striiker Wear a mask

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    I didn't say that everyone who likes Ginning hated Sanheim, but all the people who whined about Sanheim are also Ginning lovers.
     
  7. Starat327 HFFlyers Resident 'Beer Foodie' Sponsor

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    Yeah, i keep getting told on here that in order to make it at the NHL you have to produce at the lower levels to even have a shot. Odd that that isnt the case for this young gentleman. But hey, you know. Hes captain of his team and 70 international games or something, so, thats probably enough to overcome that.
     
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  8. deadhead Registered User

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    Offensive players need to produce at lower levels, defensive oriented players, not so much.

    So I'm more worried if 22 year old Kalynuk, who's going to make it on his offense, doesn't average a ppg with the top talent he'll have at forward this year. If he can't score, he's not going to be a NHL player.

    Ginning, who is destined to a 3rd pair role, just has to improve his basic skill package, at 6'4 220 down the road, his job will be to keep the crease clean and be a roadblock to forwards entering the D-zone.
     
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  9. wasup Registered User

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    The reality is you need a few offensive D men a few stay at home physical ones and a few decent all around ones and you play them in spots to maximize their abilities . It's no different at forward you can't have all shooters or all play makers or all grinders you need some of all of them .

    I do value offense out of a D man just not as much as some on here that seem to like watching pond hockey . I value D men that can produce without the sacrifice of defense .
    Lidstrom , Bourque , Keith , Carlson Hedman etc are the style i like but i do realize this kind costs boat loads of cash and reality is you can only afford 1 per team .
     
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  10. hatcher Registered User

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    This and the flyers are opposite of the players you named.
     
  11. Striiker Wear a mask

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    "Stay at home physical ones" is just code for "stone handed defensemen".

    What you need is guys who can be useful in all three zones. Provorov, Sanheim, Ghost, and Myers are all guys who can help everywhere. That's what you really need.
     
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  12. wasup Registered User

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    Provo is good in D zone good in neutral zone could use work in offensive zone .
    Ghost and Sandheim , good in offensive zone good in neutral zone need work in defensive zone .
    Myers has the potential and i said potential to be the player that is good in all three zones .

    I don't put orange color glasses when evaluating players .
    This all goes back to Ginning who i am not really fond of his style but don't hate him either . He is young and could and i said could be a useful 3rd pair d man down the road , he is just not your style Striker and that's perfectly fine .
     
  13. Striiker Wear a mask

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    My problem with Ginning isn't his style, it's that he's not even good at his style.

    I always really liked Gudas and he wasn't exactly a dynamic offensive player either.
     
  14. GapToothedWonder Registered User

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    Your out scouting players for tiering? For who? Yourself?
     
  15. GapToothedWonder Registered User

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    I think another issue is people talk about needing defenceman that have puck and skating skills so that they can effectively transition from defense to offence and help relieve pressure on themselves and their partner.

    The people on the other side of the fence look at this and say "well they can't all be offensive defenseman, they can't all put up points"

    When nobody is saying that. They are saying that they want players with enough natural talent that with proper coaching can see the correct passes to make and have the skills to execute them. Or be able to move their feet well enough to open lanes in the other teams defense to exploit.

    Being unable to consistently do those sort of things at lower levels likely means the player will likely struggle with them at higher levels. And at that point they become susceptible to turnovers themselves or inclined to always defer puck control to their partner which puts undue pressure in their partner and negates the usefulness of a large part of the ice while trying to transition.

    If a players transition abilities are so low that teams don't really have to try to defend them it is unlikely that they can be so effective in other areas that it counters the issues it creates.
     
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  16. Striiker Wear a mask

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    This is exactly right.
     
  17. Ghosts Beer Registered User

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    In 18/19, Ginning was one of 3 under-19 defensemen to play 40+ games in the SHL.

    In 17/18, he was one of 3 under-18 defensemen to play 28+ games in the SHL.

    A young, stay-at-home, PKer type of defenseman playing up in a much older top pro league isn’t going to put up a lot of points.

    But he should get credit for having 88 SHL games under his belt through his 18 year old season. Not to mention tons of international experience on a top international team.

    Clearly multiple people in Sweden think he brings value to the table.

    He did pot 4 points in 6 SuperElite playoff games last season when his SHL team missed the playoffs.
     
  18. wasup Registered User

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    A minor hockey association for tiering purposes a MMJHL team for evaluating players for cuts and an MJHL team for opinion on a couple of players .
     
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  19. deadhead Registered User

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    Problem is there are different types of players with different rates of maturation.
    Any coincidence that the two UDFA "steals", Myers and Zamula, were tall players who matured late physically?
    Bigger players tend to take longer to mature (especially in terms of body control) and to develop. Which is why people were patient with Morin.

    Obviously Ginning has shown enough to get major PT in the SHL at a very young (17-19) age.
    That has nothing to do with draft position, since SHL coaches are paid to win, not develop NHL players.
    So he must be doing something they see as valuable, even if he doesn't look pretty in the few snapshots people here are alluding to (who here has watched 20-30 SHL games the last two years other than Appleyard?).

    If Ginning doesn't look better at 21-22, then it's time to write him off, right now it's far too early to make definitive conclusions (unless of course you're an amateur expert).
     
  20. GapToothedWonder Registered User

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    You sure love throwing the term scout around for a guy that's in the same tier as dads volunteering to coach hockey teams.
     
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  21. wasup Registered User

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    Minor hockey associations yup absolutley just giving back time , the other two are junior leagues . Hows your couch bud , soft , lumpy or just right ?
     
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  22. Magua 5 For Tomahawking

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    What happens when an NHL lock, toted for his maturity and pro experience, averages under 10 minutes for Linkoping, which is 5 minutes less than last season and 1.5 minutes less than his draft year, and gets sent down to the junior league? How do we spin that as a positive?

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Starat327 HFFlyers Resident 'Beer Foodie' Sponsor

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    It shows character that they are sending him down as a mentor for the younger kids. Duh.
     
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  24. Tripod Registered User

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    He had a 3 point game. Spun complete.

    :rolly:
     
  25. FLYguy3911 Registered User

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    Just traveling the world. Beefing up that international resume.

    Linkoping is the worst team in the league and have given up the most Goals Against btw. Impressive considering IK Oskarshamn gave up a 12 spot last week.
     

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