Line Combos: Roster Discussions

[JetsUK]

This seems like a good time and game to switch up the lines. If we see Petan or Connor replace Wheeler on the half-wall on either PP I'll be even more relaxed.

 

[Aavco Cup]

I'm reminded of the Torterella comment earlier in the season

"It’s a bunch of bulls—. I get a kick out of us, as coaches… we talk about this, that and the other thing,” he said. “‘This is what I’m looking for.’ It’s a bunch of bulls—. We try things, and if it works, it works.”

I'm intrigued to see how it works.

 

[bumblebeeman]

I think the Ehlers- Copp - Laine line could do really well, I just hope they aren't put out there with Chiarot - Kulikov backing them up for most of their shifts, that could get ugly real fast.

 

[Positive]

It would be much better if he dealt this way with all the players.

Laine and Ehlers had a bad game last game, not super bad but just uneventful and negative. Wheelers been lost for a while but nothing touches him ever.

That's the gripe here. If he is so reactionary to some young players having an average game, how on earth can he justify not touching Wheeler after many tirefire games?

That sends the wrong message.

Veterans are handled differently than young players. That's just the way it is. If Wheeler, (or any other 11-year NHL top-6/top-9 player) makes a mistake, you know it was probably a mistake. He probably knows it was a mistake. He's already received these messages when he was a kid in the league.

It's different when a rookie or sophomore makes a mistake. You want to wean them off poor play right away before it becomes habitual. Like training puppies or disciplining children. You need to apply corrections with more frequency and immediacy, in view of their age, experience (or lack of), their history, and in view of their relationship (or lack of) with you. Youngsters get shorter leashes. This is probably true in any sport, and also in many aspects of life outside of sport.

Wheeler has stepped up as a center for the last two months. He's been a productive, valuable member of the team for 8 years, and a decent captain for 2. His relationship with the coaches seems to be very solid. That's why he gets a long leash. If I was to use the 'dog' analogy again, he's way past the house-training stage....

 

[Huffer]

I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of matchups Maurice can exploit for Laine and Ehlers, I have a sense they are going to have a good night.

Also curious to see Petan with Armia, although I hope they see enough ice.

My thoughts as well. I wouldn't mind seeing Petan get some shifts with Laine and Ehlers too.

 

[Psych0dad]

Veterans are handled differently than young players. That's just the way it is. If Wheeler, (or any other 11-year NHL top-6/top-9 player) makes a mistake, you know it was probably a mistake. He probably knows it was a mistake. He's already received these messages when he was a kid in the league.

It's different when a rookie or sophomore makes a mistake. You want to wean them off poor play right away before it becomes habitual. Like training puppies or disciplining children. You need to apply corrections with more frequency and immediacy, in view of their age, experience (or lack of), their history, and in view of their relationship (or lack of) with you. Youngsters get shorter leashes. This is probably true in any sport, and also in many aspects of life outside of sport.

Wheeler has stepped up as a center for the last two months. He's been a productive, valuable member of the team for 8 years, and a decent captain for 2. His relationship with the coaches seems to be very solid. That's why he gets a long leash. If I was to use the 'dog' analogy again, he's way past the house-training stage....

It's not a normal thing to punish other players for veterans bad play.

In what universe does it make a lick of sense to take icetime and opportunity away from player A who is playing better than player B? Because player B is older, more experienced, he should actually have higher expectations and standards.

I get it, with great ability comes great responsibility. Maybe Maurice really thinks that Laine has the greater ability (he would for once be correct about something) so when team is playing worse, he whips the one he thinks has the greatest ability and thus responsibility. Then it would make some sort of sense. Desperation, whip your go to guy and hope he finds a gear and puts the rest of the team in his backpack.

If he thinks Wheeler is the one with greater ability (which would also mean greater responsibility), but STILL pushes down other players when he f***s up, then he is totally clueless and shouldn't coach midget.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Maurice said there is no punishment involved. Of course that concept is lost on some people here.

E & L need a confidence boost. Maurice can get them into favourable matchups to accomplish just that.

Our coach is not an idiot.

 

[DashingDane]

It's not a normal thing to punish other players for veterans bad play.

In what universe does it make a lick of sense to take icetime and opportunity away from player A who is playing better than player B? Because player B is older, more experienced, he should actually have higher expectations and standards.

I get it, with great ability comes great responsibility. Maybe Maurice really thinks that Laine has the greater ability (he would for once be correct about something) so when team is playing worse, he whips the one he thinks has the greatest ability and thus responsibility. Then it would make some sort of sense. Desperation, whip your go to guy and hope he finds a gear and puts the rest of the team in his backpack.

If he thinks Wheeler is the one with greater ability (which would also mean greater responsibility), but STILL pushes down other players when he ****s up, then he is totally clueless and shouldn't coach midget.

In what universe is Laine a better player than Wheeler?

 

[Psych0dad]

In what universe is Laine a better player than Wheeler?

This one. He isn't near Wheeler physically yet, that is clear. But he is a much much better shooter, passer and has much higher hockey IQ. Also safer defensively.

Wheeler, due to his amazing work ethic and seasoned athlete physicality definitely beats Laine in first steps and also is stronger on the boards. That will also change over the next couple of years.

Any action with the stick, Laine is superior. Any.

 

[Aavco Cup]

This one. He isn't near Wheeler physically yet, that is clear. But he is a much much better shooter, passer and has much higher hockey IQ. Also safer defensively.

Wheeler, due to his amazing work ethic and seasoned athlete physicality definitely beats Laine in first steps and also is stronger on the boards. That will also change over the next couple of years.

Any action with the stick, Laine is superior. Any.

When Laine is a superior player than Wheeler it will not be a secret. Right now statements like that are a joke.

Wheeler was fifth in the PWHA mid season Hart Trophy voting and even received a couple first place votes. Laine on the other hand, for some reason didn't even get one vote. Shut out. Wheeler will get votes at the end of the season. I suspect Laine's name won't even appear on a single ballot.

 

[Ducky10]

This one. He isn't near Wheeler physically yet, that is clear. But he is a much much better shooter, passer and has much higher hockey IQ. Also safer defensively.

Wheeler, due to his amazing work ethic and seasoned athlete physicality definitely beats Laine in first steps and also is stronger on the boards. That will also change over the next couple of years.

Any action with the stick, Laine is superior. Any.

No he isn't, you can shout it from the roof tops all you like but it simply isn't true. Laine possesses some better skills than Wheeler, he is by no means a better hockey player than Wheeler.

 

[Ducky10]

It's not a normal thing to punish other players for veterans bad play.

In what universe does it make a lick of sense to take icetime and opportunity away from player A who is playing better than player B? Because player B is older, more experienced, he should actually have higher expectations and standards.

I get it, with great ability comes great responsibility. Maybe Maurice really thinks that Laine has the greater ability (he would for once be correct about something) so when team is playing worse, he whips the one he thinks has the greatest ability and thus responsibility. Then it would make some sort of sense. Desperation, whip your go to guy and hope he finds a gear and puts the rest of the team in his backpack.

If he thinks Wheeler is the one with greater ability (which would also mean greater responsibility), but STILL pushes down other players when he ****s up, then he is totally clueless and shouldn't coach midget.

What punishment are you referring to by the way? Maurice said as much that they are still going to get their minutes, their PP time and that this is largely about getting them and therefore the team favourable matchups.

This isn't anything unusual for many players and coaches.

 

[Lowered Expectations]

When all are healthy:

Perreault - Scheifele - Laine
Ehlers - Wheeler - Roslovic
Connor - Little - Armia
Copp - Lowry - Tanev

 

[Aavco Cup]

When all are healthy:

Perreault - Scheifele - Laine
Ehlers - Wheeler - Roslovic
Connor - Little - Armia
Copp - Lowry - Tanev

Well that's the only way you'll see Scheifele and Wheeler separated this season IMO. I think we're at least a year away from seeing Laine at 1st line RW. He just isn't a complete enough player yet.

Have patience

 

[Psych0dad]

No he isn't, you can shout it from the roof tops all you like but it simply isn't true. Laine possesses some better skills than Wheeler, he is by no means a better hockey player than Wheeler.

Then what exact part in my assessment was wrong? Specify if you can.

 

[Psych0dad]

What punishment are you referring to by the way? Maurice said as much that they are still going to get their minutes, their PP time and that this is largely about getting them and therefore the team favourable matchups.

This isn't anything unusual for many players and coaches.

Laine at this age is best used as a target. He needs to shoot and players around him need to try and get him chances to shoot. That is how you maximize production. Copp isn't someone who makes quality plays. He is a grinder. That might work somewhat better than Little line did but to get the best out of Laine you simply have to play him with the best playmaker. They are the strongest duo after all.

 

[Ducky10]

Then what exact part in my assessment was wrong? Specify if you can.

I don't need to get into this back and forth with you and derail this thread again, we have a difference of opinion, that's ok. We see hockey quite differently, I'm pretty sure neither I or the vast majority of the hockey world is changing your mind.

Laine has a better shot, I'm not sure I'd go a lot further than that.

See ya.

 

[Ducky10]

Laine at this age is best used as a target. He needs to shoot and players around him need to try and get him chances to shoot. That is how you maximize production. Copp isn't someone who makes quality plays. He is a grinder. That might work somewhat better than Little line did but to get the best out of Laine you simply have to play him with the best playmaker. They are the strongest duo after all.

So playing with Copp is the punishment then? Not sure that really qualifies, I doubt Laine sees it that way, or Ehlers......mercifully.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

It's not a normal thing to punish other players for veterans bad play.

In what universe does it make a lick of sense to take icetime and opportunity away from player A who is playing better than player B? Because player B is older, more experienced, he should actually have higher expectations and standards.

I get it, with great ability comes great responsibility. Maybe Maurice really thinks that Laine has the greater ability (he would for once be correct about something) so when team is playing worse, he whips the one he thinks has the greatest ability and thus responsibility. Then it would make some sort of sense. Desperation, whip your go to guy and hope he finds a gear and puts the rest of the team in his backpack.

If he thinks Wheeler is the one with greater ability (which would also mean greater responsibility), but STILL pushes down other players when he ****s up, then he is totally clueless and shouldn't coach midget.

It seems your entire argument is to take others arguments for Laine's poor shot metrics and then use the same statistics to argue against Wheeler. Hey it's a fair point.

Both have very similar negative Corsi and Fenwick stats over all categories. For arguments sake I'll give you that Laine is "marginally better" when looking at raw numbers.

With that said, Laine averages 5 minutes less TOI per game. "If" they are equals defensively, Laine should on average be posting better numbers as he would have fresher legs player less minutes. But he doesn't.

Instead Laine's TOI has him leading all Jets in offensive zone starts. Conversely he is also at the bottom of the team in defensive zone starts. This speaks volumes about the sheltered minutes Laine receives and is a further argument against these two being "equals" defensively.

Wheeler plays the penalty kill. 70 minutes of PK thus far this season. Laine has all of 6 seconds.

With Wheeler having tougher matchups, playing more ice time and recently doing so at centre, an unfamiliar position for him, you in no way should be unequivocally stating ad nausea that the two are remotely similar defensive players at the present time. Wheeler is clearly better...for now.

Was Wheeler better than Laine at 19? No. He was still playing college hockey, three years away from entering the NHL. Laine is clearly an exponentially better player on all levels when comparing every stat at the same age. It's a complement to him as a player that he's achieving the results he is at the NHL level.

The player you insist he should be playing with, Scheifele was still playing in the OHL, two years from earning a spot on the Jets roster. You & many others continue to laude how great Scheifele is, but he's gotten to where he is with far more criticism from Jets fans than Laine likely ever will. Jet fans have been happy since day 1 that we were fortunate enough to draft Laine 2nd overall. Go back through headboards history & see for yourself the ire the Scheifele pick at #7 drew from our fans. People were pissed.

Currently Laine sits at #3 on the team in total TOI, behind only Wheeler & Little. He'd be 4th if Scheifele hadn't gone done to injury. He's played 956.30 in total ice ice time. The player drafted ahead of him Auston Matthews has played 897.18. What more do you want?

Right...you want him playing with Scheifele. If you were watching the games you should be insisting he play with Perreault. Everyone plays better with Frenchie. I'd suggest Mathieu is the most important forward on the team. More so than Scheifele, Wheeler, Little, Ehlers & yes more so than your boy Laine. Were Laine able to be the first man in on the puck and gain possession as routinely in the manner Perreault does, he'd be the clear choice to play With Chef & Wheels. He can't...yet.

Laine is still being "developed" & he will continue to develop. By his own admission Laine states he's not playing well. By his own statements Laine said he has enjoyed playing with Bryan Little. You seem to think you know more about Laine than Laine himself.

 

[pucka lucka]

So PoMo putting to guys with a much weaker center isn't a punishment, but a what again? How in f*** is Copp supposed to help Laine and Ehlers play better? These coaches and their junior high level psychology. It's a simple caste system as PoMo perceives it. How well Laine has plyed with Little is irrelevant. PoMo should be worried about how to get the most of players not some ill conceived merit badge system

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

What punishment are you referring to by the way? Maurice said as much that they are still going to get their minutes, their PP time and that this is largely about getting them and therefore the team favourable matchups.

This isn't anything unusual for many players and coaches.

Don't you know what punishment is. By definition to some here it's receiving more ice time than Austin Matthews.

You know...punishment

 

[Ducky10]

So PoMo putting to guys with a much weaker center isn't a punishment, but a what again? How in **** is Copp supposed to help Laine and Ehlers play better? These coaches and their junior high level psychology. It's a simple caste system as PoMo perceives it. How well Laine has plyed with Little is irrelevant. PoMo should be worried about how to get the most of players not some ill conceived merit badge system

What merit badge system? It's not that hard to argue Maurice is trying to get the most out of his players by how he's matching them up. Until he starts reducing ice time dramatically then I'm not sure I see a punishment.

Disagree with the strategy, sure, but a punishment, don't know.

 

[Psych0dad]

It seems your entire argument is to take others arguments for Laine's poor shot metrics and then use the same statistics to argue against Wheeler. Hey it's a fair point.

Both have very similar negative Corsi and Fenwick stats over all categories. For arguments sake I'll give you that Laine is "marginally better" when looking at raw numbers.

With that said, Laine averages 5 minutes less TOI per game. "If" they are equals defensively, Laine should on average be posting better numbers as he would have fresher legs player less minutes. But he doesn't.

Instead Laine's TOI has him leading all Jets in offensive zone starts. Conversely he is also at the bottom of the team in defensive zone starts. This speaks volumes about the sheltered minutes Laine receives and is a further argument against these two being "equals" defensively.

Wheeler plays the penalty kill. 70 minutes of PK thus far this season. Laine has all of 6 seconds.

With Wheeler having tougher matchups, playing more ice time and recently doing so at centre, an unfamiliar position for him, you in no way should be unequivocally stating ad nausea that the two are remotely similar defensive players at the present time. Wheeler is clearly better...for now.

Was Wheeler better than Laine at 19? No. He was still playing college hockey, three years away from entering the NHL. Laine is clearly an exponentially better player on all levels when comparing every stat at the same age. It's a complement to him as a player that he's achieving the results he is at the NHL level.

The player you insist he should be playing with, Scheifele was still playing in the OHL, two years from earning a spot on the Jets roster. You & many others continue to laude how great Scheifele is, but he's gotten to where he is with far more criticism from Jets fans than Laine likely ever will. Jet fans have been happy since day 1 that we were fortunate enough to draft Laine 2nd overall. Go back through headboards history & see for yourself the ire the Scheifele pick at #7 drew from our fans. People were pissed.

Currently Laine sits at #3 on the team in total TOI, behind only Wheeler & Little. He'd be 4th if Scheifele hadn't gone done to injury. He's played 956.30 in total ice ice time. The player drafted ahead of him Auston Matthews has played 897.18. What more do you want?

Right...you want him playing with Scheifele. If you were watching the games you should be insisting he play with Perreault. Everyone plays better with Frenchie. I'd suggest Mathieu is the most important forward on the team. More so than Scheifele, Wheeler, Little, Ehlers & yes more so than your boy Laine. Were Laine able to be the first man in on the puck and gain possession as routinely in the manner Perreault does, he'd be the clear choice to play With Chef & Wheels. He can't...yet.

Laine is still being "developed" & he will continue to develop. By his own admission Laine states he's not playing well. By his own statements Laine said he has enjoyed playing with Bryan Little. You seem to think you know more about Laine than Laine himself.

It's gotten simply ridiculous. I'm quite happy to see the Laine page closed down.

If you don't want to cheer for the Jets, take your posts to the main page where they belong & stay out of the Jets boards.

Don't tell me I don't watch games. Ihave continuously said PSL is the best available line.

The reason why I haven't been demanding that line is, that it's possibly away from the teams overall best to have all top 3 fwds in one line. Chef and Laine should be able to do a ton of damage without Perreault but Perreault makes them magic. Perreault just makes any line good so he can be utilized better for adding line depth. You can have 3 high scoring lines with this roster if utilized right.

I'd give this a try once Lowry is back:

Ehlers- Scheifele- Laine
Connor/Roslo- Little-Wheeler
Perreault-Lowry-Armia

But yeah, if one was only concerned about Laines production, the best way to maximize him is PSL for sure.

 

[Psych0dad]

Don't you know what punishment is. By definition to some here it's receiving more ice time than Austin Matthews.

You know...punishment

Auston. And what the hell does he or his icetime have to do with this conversation? Kinda odd.

Which one is the better offensive player and playmaker, Copp or Scheifele?

I rest my case.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Don't tell me I don't watch games. Ihave continuously said PSL is the best available line.

The reason why I haven't been demanding that line is, that it's possibly away from the teams overall best to have all top 3 fwds in one line. Chef and Laine should be able to do a ton of damage without Perreault but Perreault makes them magic. Perreault just makes any line good so he can be utilized better for adding line depth. You can have 3 high scoring lines with this roster if utilized right.

I'd give this a try once Lowry is back:

Ehlers- Scheifele- Laine
Connor/Roslo- Little-Wheeler
Perreault-Lowry-Armia

But yeah, if one was only concerned about Laines production, the best way to maximize him is PSL for sure.

Although Scheifele is creative with the puck, I'd prefer to see him generate his offence in the manner Ladd/Little/Wheeler did.

As the team currently stands, and with all the players where they are developmentally, I think there are better fits for Scheifele than Laine.

I will give you that using the same argument, until another centre is acquired or developed, the best fit for Laine is Scheifele .

Basically Laine's need for Scheifele outweighs Scheifele's need for Laine. In my mind the team is stronger as a whole with Scheifele & Laine apart.

Really looking forward to that point in the game occurring tonight where Mo flips Copp & Petan. When it occurs I hope Nic is ready. A solid performance tonight with the two Euros could do wonders to improve his future on the team.