Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part LI

[Raspewtin]

if KK and Laf actually get to a point where they can reasonably "demand" Toews/Kane money, we should be over the moon tbh

 

[Ola]

So again I ask, where is the log jam?

From my POV you make your own bed with these kids and someone like Kravtsov must play in a decent environment to develop. Before we got Kakko that was definitely not unobtainable for Kravy if he did his part even if we kept Buch. After we got Kakko, it’s definitely harder for Kravy to get PP time as long as Buch is around. JMHO.

So from a development POV, I wouldn’t argue against a claim that we have a bit of a log-jam.

 

[Ola]

All thats great but the most of the cup winners the last number of years used the dump and heavy hockey to win, nothing has really changed, and i don't think you can money ball your way to a cup championship unless you understand that regular season and playoffs are two totally different games. L.A, Boston, Washington, St.Louis all used it, even Pitsburgh used the dump effectively when they were winning. I've said it for years, analytics makes for nice regular season teams but it doesn't measure the will a player has in the post season, its generally why younger teams have a hard time adjusting to playoffs because they arent ready for the increase in speed, intensity and forechecking. It's understanding this that is crucial for teams building for the future. Toronto has wiffed this big time, will be interesting to see if they adjust and if Gorton can implement the same things he did in Boston.

Interesting take. Chiarelli in EDM went out and got Big Grit Maroon, Milan Lucic, Kahira and Kassian and a lot of people thought that was a horrible strategy and it’s hard to boost about the success they had. What is your take on that, do you think Chiarelli’s approach was correct?

 

[BBKers]

@BBKers is vetted.

Or more like was being bored, lush & pickled. 2020 is getting to me now. Not good... I do miss @RangerBoy. Seriously. I hope for the best regarding his well being

 

[Ola]

Or more like was being bored, lush & pickled. 2020 is getting to me now. Not good... I do miss @RangerBoy. Seriously. I hope for the best regarding his well being

Seriously, can’t we crowd fund a PI?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

All thats great but the most of the cup winners the last number of years used the dump and heavy hockey to win, nothing has really changed, and i don't think you can money ball your way to a cup championship unless you understand that regular season and playoffs are two totally different games. L.A, Boston, Washington, St.Louis all used it, even Pitsburgh used the dump effectively when they were winning. I've said it for years, analytics makes for nice regular season teams but it doesn't measure the will a player has in the post season, its generally why younger teams have a hard time adjusting to playoffs because they arent ready for the increase in speed, intensity and forechecking. It's understanding this that is crucial for teams building for the future. Toronto has wiffed this big time, will be interesting to see if they adjust and if Gorton can implement the same things he did in Boston.

The team that win have been able to do both effectively to some extent. Yes one dimensional attacks struggle (Hello Toronto) but the most successful teams in the last 10 years (Pittsburgh and Chicago) leaned more towards controlled entries and transition than chip and chase. Did they have guys who could grind out a greasy goal and did they chip and chase when necessary? 100%, you need some semblance of balance. Even a team like LA, who in their hay day were the quintessential heavy hockey team were good at getting the puck into the offensive zone WITH control. Their "everything and the kitchen sink" approach to offense once they got in there worked because they had heavy bodies, but its not like they were chipping and chasing their way to victory.

Regular season analytics have been pretty accurate in their prediction of playoff success btw. The only teams that have really bucked that trend since the lock out were the 09 Penguins and the 2018 Capitals(both teams have a generational talent on them.) 2011 Bruins also to some extent, but lets face it they get wiped hard if the Canucks are even remotely healthy.

 

[kovazub94]

44 replies at the other page*

a 3rd likely wont bring ANA's leading scorer, but at that price i wouldn't hate it

you've read my concerns: his Cap Hit and term concerns me, and by the time NYR are ready to contend in ~2+ years, he's well past typical NHL prime

* Home>Forums>General Hockey Discussion>Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk>ANH & NYR
* Proposal: - ANH & NYR

Any trade proposals to upgrade from Strome make me wary if these "upgrades" come with significant salary, term and / or player who's on the older side.

Strome is a placeholder for when Chytil is fully ready to take over and which could happen as soon as next season, or season after - we don't know (though we know that a prospect progressing at his rate is likely to eventually develop at least into a high level 2C). The point is that a short term and relatively inexpensive are big considerations. In Strome we have a player in his prime whom the Rangers could sign to a short contract and who happened to have a PROVEN chemistry with the Rangers best forward while being able to play different forward positions.

 

[Leetch3]

Any trade proposals to upgrade from Strome make me wary if these "upgrades" come with significant salary, term and / or player who's on the older side.

Strome is a placeholder for when Chytil is fully ready to take over and which could happen as soon as next season, or season after - we don't know (though we know that a prospect progressing at his rate is likely to eventually develop at least into a high level 2C). The point is that a short term and relatively inexpensive are big considerations. In Strome we have a player in his prime whom the Rangers could sign to a short contract and who happened to have a PROVEN chemistry with the Rangers best forward while being able to play different forward positions.

higher salary and term is possible and likely if you are getting a better player but 'older' shouldn't even be an option. if you are looking for a place holder, then just keep strome. making a trade for a center should be targeting guys 25 & under who can be part of the long term solution...an older guy might be better for next year but NO moves should be made based on 'next year'. think big picture.

 

[kovazub94]

One guy who is almost certain to get moved in Arizona is Antti Raanta. If Lundqvist is moved out and Georgiev is traded, I could see him as a potential backup for the Rangers. He's had some health issues in AZ but he has played very well when he is healthy. $4,25MM @ 50%?

Trade Georgiev, sign Raanta - why? Arizona won't agree to keep 50% of his salary for no consideration. I think on the net this exchange would cost assets to NYR.

 

[haohmaru]

To be fair he did say 'if Lundqvist is moved out and Georgiev is traded'

Backup goalies aren’t in short supply. I don’t see why we need to trade for one. Just sign one.

 

[Leetch3]

Trade Georgiev, sign Raanta - why? Arizona won't agree to keep 50% of his salary for no consideration. I think on the net this exchange would cost assets to NYR.

imo that only makes sense if the yotes are giving us something to take raanta off their hands to clear cap space. he would be a good backup but there are plenty of free agents to sign without giving up assets

 

[kovazub94]

higher salary and term is possible and likely if you are getting a better player but 'older' shouldn't even be an option. if you are looking for a place holder, then just keep strome. making a trade for a center should be targeting guys 25 & under who can be part of the long term solution...an older guy might be better for next year but NO moves should be made based on 'next year'. think big picture.

So we do agree on the part of the statement (re. placeholder). We might differ on the other (bolded) part of the discussion about a long-term solution. I think the Rangers should target cheaper options - both in terms of a future contract and trade assets - to more appropriately be slotted as 3C. If there will be more upside realized - great!

 

[Leetch3]

So we do agree on the part of the statement (re. placeholder). We might differ on the other (bolded) part of the discussion about a long-term solution. I think the Rangers should target cheaper options - both in terms of a future contract and trade assets - to more appropriately be slotted as 3C. If there will be more upside realized - great!

well a placeholder would be gone or slotted down to 3C when the time comes...but if i'm making a trade for a center its not for another place holder, its for a legit 2C. but i think we are pretty much on the same page.

 

[MrPodz]

Nyr acquires- d jacob chychrun and c christian dvorak
Arizona acquires-
D tony deangelo
C ryan strome

Yes, no?

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

if KK and Laf actually get to a point where they can reasonably "demand" Toews/Kane money, we should be over the moon tbh

But we should also hope that instead, they both get the MacKinnon effect and don’t fully breakout until they’re signed to steals of contracts.

But Laf is a better prospect than MacKinnon was, frankly. Not that I ThI k he’ll be a better NHLer. He won’t.

 

[GAGLine]

So we do agree on the part of the statement (re. placeholder). We might differ on the other (bolded) part of the discussion about a long-term solution. I think the Rangers should target cheaper options - both in terms of a future contract and trade assets - to more appropriately be slotted as 3C. If there will be more upside realized - great!

I don't want a guy who is good offensively, but weak everywhere else. Give me a 50 point guy who is strong defensively and hard to play against, and I'll be happy.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Nyr acquires- d jacob chychrun and c christian dvorak
Arizona acquires-
D tony deangelo
C ryan strome

Yes, no?

Triple f*** no.

 

[True Blue]

Strome is a placeholder for when Chytil is fully ready to take over and which could happen as soon as next season, or season after - we don't know (though we know that a prospect progressing at his rate is likely to eventually develop at least into a high level 2C). The point is that a short term and relatively inexpensive are big considerations. In Strome we have a player in his prime whom the Rangers could sign to a short contract and who happened to have a PROVEN chemistry with the Rangers best forward while being able to play different forward positions.

People tend to forget that prospects can take a while to develop. Look at ZBad. Which is where a place holder like Strome can provide value.

 

[cwede]

Nyr acquires- d jacob chychrun and c christian dvorak
Arizona acquires-
D tony deangelo
C ryan strome

Yes, no?

I would do this in heatbeat, because of Chych as LHD mainstay, but i dont see 'yotes sending him unless they get Canes 1st in a package. Dvorak does have good FO#s and fair Cap Hit, but not essential
If NYR dont patch both LHD and 2C this offseason, thats ok

Maybe Canes#1, Strome, Hajek for Chych, Janik, Maccelli

 

[True Blue]

From my POV you make your own bed with these kids and someone like Kravtsov must play in a decent environment to develop. Before we got Kakko that was definitely not unobtainable for Kravy if he did his part even if we kept Buch. After we got Kakko, it’s definitely harder for Kravy to get PP time as long as Buch is around. JMHO.

So from a development POV, I wouldn’t argue against a claim that we have a bit of a log-jam.

Not really. Gauthier showed....a bit. No idea if he will be part of the future. Kravstov showed.....nothing as he did not play at all at the NHL level. Kakko showed a bit and we expect more. Not sure where the log jam is.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Nyr acquires- d jacob chychrun and c christian dvorak
Arizona acquires-
D tony deangelo
C ryan strome

Yes, no?

Triple f*** no.

I would do this in heatbeat, because of Chych as LHD mainstay, but i dont see 'yotes sending him unless they get Canes 1st in a package. Dvorak does have good FO#s and fair Cap Hit, but not essential
If NYR dont patch both LHD and 2C this offseason, thats ok

If I'm the Rangers, I probably try to wrangle another add out of ARZ, but that's absolutely the basis for a deal I'd do.

2 problems:

1) I wonder if ARZ has any interest in bringing back a player they already shipped out.
2) If they're moving Dvorak and Chychrun, I don't think it'll be for a deal centered on two older players...

 

[Cag29]

+1, quite a few of us have mentioned this yet while the majority appear to think otherwise.

It’s amazing how much has changed over the past year. Stockpiling #1’s in hopes of a rebuild with a little bit of everything yet so tough to find a star. So the Rangers go sign Panarin with a pretty solid Zibby and likely moving Kreider b/c the team needs more young talent.

Flash forward, two lottery wins added to Panarin and suddenly the team has added 3 stars and Zibby becomes a legit one.

Now we ask ourselves, do we surround these stars with toughness like the teams you mentioned or have our stars skate around with many finesse kids? Cap wise, this could be interesting as Kakko and Laf will likely command Kane/Toews dollars while a lot of these skilled players will be due for raises. We all know, points equal dollars yet @ plethora of finesse doesn’t win cups.

I think what we’ll have to do is identify the winning core players. Trade for futures when you have a good or great player you can’t afford to pay and definitely get more skilled gritty players in the bottom 6. LGR!!!

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Nyr acquires- d jacob chychrun and c christian dvorak
Arizona acquires-
D tony deangelo
C ryan strome

Yes, no?

Nooooo.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Interesting take. Chiarelli in EDM went out and got Big Grit Maroon, Milan Lucic, Kahira and Kassian and a lot of people thought that was a horrible strategy and it’s hard to boost about the success they had. What is your take on that, do you think Chiarelli’s approach was correct?

I think Chiarelli forgot about defense firstly and adding Lucic at his cap isn't helpful in any regard especially on a team with so much invested in their top two stars. I do think Kassian has certainly helped a lot, and Maroon ended up being an integral part of the St.Louis Cup win, Kharia isn't much outside of big. You still have to be able to play hockey and retrieve the puck on the dump and drive the net, its no good to be big and bad at puck battles, i mean you dont even have to be big, Marchand or Gallagher are good examples of being that style of player, its more about will to win and being good at the hard parts of the game. This is where analytics fail in hockey, the regular season and playoffs are almost two different sports in how they are played, the speed of it and the aggressiveness of it. Its great to have skill everywhere but as i always tell the players, "Hard work will beat skill when skill doesn't work hard". St.louis last year and Columbus and the Islanders are good examples of this.

 

[GAGLine]

People tend to forget that prospects can take a while to develop. Look at ZBad. Which is where a place holder like Strome can provide value.

Strome is fine for that role, but I wonder if we might cash in on him and replace him with a place holder who is more well rounded.

What about someone like Carl Soderberg? Does he still have enough in the tank? He had 35 points in 70 games last year, but Arizona can't score goals. We could likely sign him for relatively cheap.