Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXVI: Spring into action (GMJG outta hibernation?)

[BBKers]

Here we go again. TDL April 12. A mere 3 weeks away...

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[Amazing Kreiderman]

SELL SELL SELL!!

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Bye Buch

 

[RangersFan1994]

Bye Buch

If they lose this deal or deal him for a gamble. Makes no sense

 

[duhmetreE]

15 forwards with Kravtsov. Something needs to happen with that, especially with Gauthier.

 

[bl02]

15 forwards with Kravtsov. Something needs to happen with that, especially with Gauthier.

too bad the kid doesn’t get to play... you know to increase his trade value.

 

[LokiDog]

15 forwards with Kravtsov. Something needs to happen with that, especially with Gauthier.

As much as Rooney, PDG and Blackwell have been fine-good for 30 games, I wouldn’t clog our lineup with more than one of them beyond this year.

KZB, Bread, Chytil, Kakko, Laf, Krav are the only guys I’d be overly concerned about. That’s 8. Strome, Gauthier, Howden, Lemieux brings you to 12. Blackwell has been the best of the bunch. I’m not losing sleep over Kevin Rooney or PDG’s fate.

 

[RGY]

too bad the kid doesn’t get to play... you know to increase his trade value.

Instead we get to watch the pylon Brett Howden play...

Hey Gorton, its ok... we will not be upset that this was a loss on that part of the McDonagh trade. Spare us your pride and get rid of that guy already.

 

[GAGLine]

Instead we get to watch the pylon Brett Howden play...

Hey Gorton, its ok... we will not be upset that this was a loss on that part of the McDonagh trade. Spare us your pride and get rid of that guy already.

Gorton has nothing to do with it. He doesn't decide who plays, Quinn does. Quinn trusts Howden more than he trusts Gauthier, and Howden fills a role that Gauthier does not.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

We’ve gotten to the point in Quinn’s tenure where “developing the kids” is a secondary goal

It’s obvious that’s the case by the way he doles out ice time and who gets scratched

Have to make sure guys who won’t be here in 12 months like Blackwell and Howden are getting their minutes

This season is the perfect opportunity to figure what you have in guys like Gauthier and Chytil and they’re choosing not too

 

[Vitto79]

If they can move Georgiev for a keeper LD in expansion plus a G that can compete w Kinkaid did back up you think about it

but need to see Shesterkin back and healthy first

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

At this point I agree they are riding the vets into the ground to try to make the playoffs. I am not sure that’s the smart path for the organization to take. I get it - they want to “build a winning culture” and there is truth to be had in that. But if the kids don’t reach their offensive potential all the culture in the world isn’t going to save this rebuild.

I see no logical justification for Strome playing so much PP time on a unit that isn’t performing well, at all. Unless they are trying to showcase him for a trade.

 

[GAGLine]

We’ve gotten to the point in Quinn’s tenure where “developing the kids” is a secondary goal

It’s obvious that’s the case by the way he doles out ice time and who gets scratched

Have to make sure guys who won’t be here in 12 months like Blackwell and Howden are getting their minutes

This season is the perfect opportunity to figure what you have in guys like Gauthier and Chytil and they’re choosing not too

Quinn has an entire team of players he has to answer to. You think guys like Panarin, Kreider, Zib, etc. are going to be happy if the coach is force feeding minutes to players who aren't helping the team win?

It's a balancing act. Yes, players need to develop, but more minutes doesn't automatically mean better development. And players will develop better playing in an environment where the team is competitive.

 

[RGY]

Gorton has nothing to do with it. He doesn't decide who plays, Quinn does. Quinn trusts Howden more than he trusts Gauthier, and Howden fills a role that Gauthier does not.

What role is that? Please dont say PKer....

Blackwell-Rooney
Zib-Buch

Those are your main PKers. Kreider and Strome can be your 3rd set. Draisatl occasionally kills penalties for EDM. We DO NOT NEED HOWDEN.

Center wise, youre going Zib-Strome-Chytil-Rooney down the middle until you find another center. Tell me again why we absolutely NEED Howden???

He is f***ing terrible. He should be in the AHL. He has no business being in the NHL.

And sorry this isnt solely directed at you GAG. I am just tired of hearing Howden fills a role or need with this team. Yes, by Quinn’s pathetic standards he does.

Get Gauthier back in the lineup. He draws a ton of penalties. He had one bad game of taking bad penalties that were yes inexcusable but he also scored a goal in that game that a lot of our forwards simply cannot produce.

Edit: And Gorton does deserve some blame. He is allowed to step in and demote that kid. Take the toy away from the inexperienced coach.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Quinn has an entire team of players he has to answer to. You think guys like Panarin, Kreider, Zib, etc. are going to be happy if the coach is force feeding minutes to players who aren't helping the team win?

It's a balancing act. Yes, players need to develop, but more minutes doesn't automatically mean better development. And players will develop better playing in an environment where the team is competitive.

Oh please

What a lame arguement

Yeah I’m sure the players will commit mutiny if they’re forced to play with some of the most talented under 22 players in the league

As opposed to the heavyweights they’re playing with now like Blackwell and Strome

And they’re playing sub .500 hockey, it’s not like we’re breaking up the Blackhawks or the Penguins of the 2010’s here lol

 

[DutchShamrock]

Quinn has an entire team of players he has to answer to. You think guys like Panarin, Kreider, Zib, etc. are going to be happy if the coach is force feeding minutes to players who aren't helping the team win?

It's a balancing act. Yes, players need to develop, but more minutes doesn't automatically mean better development. And players will develop better playing in an environment where the team is competitive.

If he is a development coach, then he should do what is best in that regard. And I'm openminded enough to accept that earning time helps develop.

But the PP isn't very good and he won't change the units or the 1:45 they get every penalty. Then he alters even strength lines every period. So weird to see opposing philosophies from the same guy in a 3 minute span. It resembles the very old school mentality of rewarding vets and established players.

Or he is coaching to keep his job. Treat each pp like the goalie is pulled to get that must have goal. Then jumble lines desperately looking for a spark. Mike Keenan in an elimination game every single shift.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

With the way Buch has been playing, Rangers should not trade him. Strome, Howden sure.

 

[GAGLine]

What role is that? Please dont say PKer....

Blackwell-Rooney
Zib-Buch

Those are your main PKers.

Except they aren't. Blackwell doesn't kill penalties. He has averaged :23 per game on the PK.

Those are the top 5 forwards in PK ice time.

You can argue all you want about how Howden isn't needed as a PKer, but you can't argue that he gets the 3rd most time per game on the PK on the 3rd best PK team in the league. Whether you want to admit it or not, he is part of the reason for that success.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Quinn has an entire team of players he has to answer to. You think guys like Panarin, Kreider, Zib, etc. are going to be happy if the coach is force feeding minutes to players who aren't helping the team win?

It's a balancing act. Yes, players need to develop, but more minutes doesn't automatically mean better development. And players will develop better playing in an environment where the team is competitive.

I'm not trying to be annoying because I enjoy your posts a lot, but what evidence is there for this really? I think guys like Tavares, MacKinnon , Draisaitl, etc. developed pretty well in losing environments where they were fed minutes. Lafreniere and Kakko should be handled similarly. And I wouldn't discount Quinn managing for his own job either.

Even when Barkov was not putting up points early on his team fed him minutes. Because he was the future of their franchise. His rookie year when he put up 24 points in 54 games, he led the Panthers forwards in PP TOI / GP at 2:40 and was 3rd at ES with 13:22. His sophomore year when he put up 36 points in 71 games, he was 4th in PP TOI / GP at 2:15 and was 2nd at ES with 13:43.

Lafreniere Rookie: 12:11 5v5 (7th among forwards), 1:52 PP (6th among forwards)
Kakko Rookie: 11:37 5v5 (8th among forwards), 2:11 PP (6th among forwards)
Kakko Sophomore: 13:06 5v5 (3rd among forwards), 1:25 PP (7th among forwards)

 

[Michal]

Guys, do you know if teams are eligible to extend contracts with their RFAs (2021) before the expansion draft? If they are, do you think Gorton will try to extend e.g Howden/Di Giuseppe (UFA)/Gauthier/Hajek in order to have a bigger choice in terms of exposure?

I know Lemieux, Rooney, DeAngelo, Bitetto have already met the exposure requirements (and Blackwell needs only 6 games to join them), but there is always a risk of season ending injury and perhaps Gorton will want to protect any of them (It's not very likely but you never know ). On the other hand Gorton can decide that having 3 Fs (Lemieux, Rooney, Blackwell), 2 Ds (ADA, Bitetto) and 1G (Kinkaid) who meet the exposure requirements is enough and they will manage to expose 2Fs, 1D and 1G without extending any RFA before the expansion draft.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Guys, do you know if teams are eligible to extend contracts with their RFAs (2021) before the expansion draft? If they are, do you think Gorton will try to extend e.g Howden/Di Giuseppe/Gauthier/Hajek in order to have a bigger choice in terms of exposure?

I know Lemieux, Rooney, DeAngelo, Bitetto have already met the exposure requirements (and Blackwell needs only 6 games to join them), but there is always a risk of season ending injury and perhaps Gorton will want to protect any of them (It's not very likely but you never know ). On the other hand Gorton can decide that having 3 Fs (Lemieux, Rooney, Blackwell), 2 Ds (ADA, Bitetto) and 1G (Kinkaid) who meet the exposure requirements is enough and they will manage to expose 2Fs, 1D and 1G without extending any RFA before the expansion draft.

Players in the last year of a multi-year contract can be negotiated with for extension 12 months before the contract expires.

For 1-year contracts, that date is usually Jan 1st but this year I think it's March or April 1st

 

[UnSandvich]

Except they aren't. Blackwell doesn't kill penalties. He has averaged :23 per game on the PK.

View attachment 410704

Those are the top 5 forwards in PK ice time.

You can argue all you want about how Howden isn't needed as a PKer, but you can't argue that he gets the 3rd most time per game on the PK on the 3rd best PK team in the league. Whether you want to admit it or not, he is part of the reason for that success.

Of Rangers penalty killers with 30mins or more spent on the PK, only one has a CF%, FF%, SF% and xGF% below 10. Guess who that is?
Only one F has allowed 7 goals against. Guess who that is?
Only one F has not been on for a single shorthanded goal for. Guess who that is?
Only one F has an on-ice sv% below .850. Guess who that is?

PLAYING A LOT OF SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ANY GOOD AT IT. AND HOWDEN ISN'T.

 

[Savant]

Would trade some others so they don’t have to trade Buch. Even if value is slightly suboptimal

 

[RGY]

Except they aren't. Blackwell doesn't kill penalties. He has averaged :23 per game on the PK.

View attachment 410704

Those are the top 5 forwards in PK ice time.

You can argue all you want about how Howden isn't needed as a PKer, but you can't argue that he gets the 3rd most time per game on the PK on the 3rd best PK team in the league. Whether you want to admit it or not, he is part of the reason for that success.

I am saying Blackwell can be your main PKer. Sorry I should have clarified.

Howden getting whatever PK time is Quinn force feeding him minutes. He is absolutely replaceable. Youre right I refuse to believe that a combo of Rooney-Blackwell wouldnt let the PK success collapse.

EDIT; please refer to @UnSandvich post above

 

[GAGLine]

I'm not trying to be annoying because I enjoy your posts a lot, but what evidence is there for this really? I think guys like Tavares, MacKinnon , Draisaitl, etc. developed pretty well in losing environments where they were fed minutes. Lafreniere and Kakko should be handled similarly. And I wouldn't discount Quinn managing for his own job either.

Even when Barkov was not putting up points early on his team fed him minutes. Because he was the future of their franchise. His rookie year when he put up 24 points in 54 games, he led the Panthers forwards in PP TOI / GP at 2:40 and was 3rd at ES with 13:22. His sophomore year when he put up 36 points in 71 games, he was 4th in PP TOI / GP at 2:15 and was 2nd at ES with 13:43.

Lafreniere Rookie: 12:11 5v5 (7th among forwards), 1:52 PP (6th among forwards)
Kakko Rookie: 11:37 5v5 (8th among forwards), 2:11 PP (6th among forwards)
Kakko Sophomore: 13:06 5v5 (3rd among forwards), 1:25 PP (7th among forwards)

Of course there are many great players who got fed ice time early in their careers, mostly because they were on bad teams who didn't have better options, but also because they were producing. And when I say producing, they were driving play, not just riding shotgun to good players and leeching points.

There are also examples of players who didn't get a ton of ice time early, like Svechnikov, Seguin, Stamkos, Zibanejad, Marchand, Pastrnak.

None of these examples prove or disprove my statement. They are simply anecdotal evidence that great players find a way to be great. We will never know if they would have been better or worse by playing less minutes on a better team, or if they would have achieved the same level more or less quickly. When I make that statement, I look at teams like the Islanders, Sabres and Oilers. The Islanders were terrible with Tavares and didn't really start winning until he left. I'm not saying he was the reason they were bad, but him being great was irrelevant. His team didn't magically become better because of it. The same is true of guys like McDavid, Draisaitl and Eichel. Ovechkin has been a beast his entire career and has never had to worry about his ice time, but it wasn't until Trotz came along and got them to play with more defensive structure that the actually won a cup. Pittsburgh won 2 cups recently by playing strong defensive structure and having a great 3rd line.

You can also look at a team like Toronto. For years now, they've had plenty of players who score a lot, including Tavares, but they haven't won anything. Now they are trying to become better defensively and they are trying to teach players who are used to playing run and gun to play with more structure. Can that work? Sure. Tampa just did it, but even then it took them a long time to get over the hump, just like it did with Washington.

I'd rather have the kids learn the right way from the start, than to be force fed minutes where they cheat for offense and/or get gifted points by playing with better players. If that means it takes longer for them to break out offensively, that's fine. If nothing else, their contract demands will be lower.