Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20: Part XXVI

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I disagree given Kreider is the top rental on the market this year. He’ll return more than Hayes.

I will believe it when I see it. We go through this every year.

Remember the "OMG, we're getting Sergachev for McDonagh" talk?

 

[True Blue]

Having seen a lot of the world, I find New York intrigues me more and more. There are very few cities that can match the food, culture, museums, entertainment, options, etc.

As someone who loves exploring new things, I never get bored there.

Could not agree more. I have been to many cities, in many countries. There is only one NYC. For all of its warts, it is a one of a kind to live in.

 

[SA16]

Sorry, mis-read that you were referring to forwards. Where are you pulling the stats from? If I am less busy later I want to take a look.

I had to manually compute it. You can do it with anything. Maybe you want to compare LHS/RHS (this has country bias though), players over/under 6 feet, players over/under 200 lb etc.

 

[MrPodz]

Look kreider was great- inconsistent, but when he was on, he was on. Thats the problem. He's 29, his career high is like 52 points and he scores a lot of tip in goals. Yes, he can use his speed, but i dont think he will age well, i just dont see him being effective at 32, let alone 33 or 34. Like i mentioned before, blues arent under pressure, they won already. Yes, they might feel stress to make the playoffs again, but the city of st.louis wont care as much bc they already did something no other team for their city could- win a cup for the first time in their 5p yr history. He's gone. May i suggest a different conversation, fox shld be pp qb 1, mans is on another level. Like tony d is all offense, but fox slows the game down and is able to create space. Thats been the problem for kakko btw, he's struggling with pace. Our team wont be a playoff
threat until we change our system and our prospects start playing with some experience.

 

[RangerBoy]

Georgiev was lights out against the Leafs last season. He was bad in the December loss to the Leafs at the Garden. He was better in the OT win in Toronto after Christmas. He didn’t play at the same level as last season. Andersen has been average. That guy gives up too many soft goals. The Leafs have trouble defending but they need a big save from their goaltender too. Hutchinson will probably play tomorrow night. He stinks.

 

[SA16]

The Leafs are 19-8-3 since Keefe took over. Why do they need to trade some of their forwards? They've been one of the best teams in the league.

 

[Riche16]

I love NYC, but I'm the type of person who can take it in small bursts. I'm not sure I could take it for months on end

I think it would be different when you're making multi millions yearly. Don't wanna take the subway today because it's hot and humid? No prob. Can't get a cab because it's raining? No prob. Penthouses rarely have rats or roaches lol

 

[NYR Viper]

I do have some concerns about moving guys up ahead of where they should be. Frankly, that's kind of how we got to this point with Skjei in the first place.

But whether it's Chytil, Kakko, Fox, Lindgren, etc., I'm always a little hesitant to go with the approach of "sliding them up." Because as we've seen, in most cases they might not be quite as ready for that jump as we want to optimistically believe. When we also factor in production, I think that's where people keep getting frustrated: when Kakko scores 30 and not 40, or Kravtsov scores 20 and not 30, or Chytil scores 35 but not 45.

In isolation, none of those things sound like deal breakers. But then we add it all up and we realize that we were (consciously/subconsciously) hoping 30 points than we ended up with, and cumulatively that makes a significant different.

I continue to be someone who has reservations with some of the proposed approaches. It's not that they can't work; I'm just not sure the odds are as favorable as some believe.

But in fairness, the thought process behind moving someone like Skjei is similar to moving someone like Kreider. The team doesn't have anyone who can really step into that hole right now. It will mean some growing pains and perhaps another move or two, but it's what is in the long-term benefit of the organization.

 

[NYR Viper]

I think it would be different when you're making multi millions yearly. Don't wanna take the subway today because it's hot and humid? No prob. Can't get a cab because it's raining? No prob. Penthouses rarely have rats or roaches lol

This is a fair point

 

[Edge]

But in fairness, the thought process behind moving someone like Skjei is similar to moving someone like Kreider. The team doesn't have anyone who can really step into that hole right now. It will mean some growing pains and perhaps another move or two, but it's what is in the long-term benefit of the organization.

Yes and no.

Kreider is an UFA who will require a new contract at anywhere from $1 million to nearly $2 million more per season in salary, well into his 30s, and require a movement clause. He's also a guy who is playing behind an elite LW.

We're not moving players to fit Skjei in there, there's not an elite LD he's playing behind, and he's very much movable at a later date.

Personally, I think our LW depth is slightly better, and arguably a little easier to improve post-Kreider than our LD in a similar scenario in which Skjei isn't replaced.

Now, if the Rangers go out and get a LD, I think it's a moot point and I can easily see them moving Skjei. But without that in place, I think our defense, which already trails our offense, only gets worse.

 

[RangerBoy]

Gorton seems like a guy that takes emotion out of the equation. I can see how that rubs agents the wrong way. Almost every player we've traded away (or moved on from) has gotten similar treatment to what Kreider is experiencing.

Right now, it benefits the Rangers to not engage in contract talks. The real decision point is the trade deadline, so it benefits the team to have as much information as possible (incoming trade offers, player performance) before having to make a decision. It's a delicate dance. I'm sure Gorton knows exactly what he wants for Kreider. Assuming a team doesn't meet the lofty price tag, there's probably a sliding scale of what Kreider would need to sign for to make trading him "not worth it." It's better for the team to get an idea of exactly what kind of package they'd be giving up to re-sign Kreider.

Of course, that sucks for the agent. Gorton is essentially stonewalling him, while at the same time leaking to clowns like Brooks that the Rangers might just re-sign Kreider in order to pump up his trade value. It's just a business, but I can see how agent and player could feel like pawns. Because they are.

Gorton would chuck Lundqvist out of here so fast if he could. Belichick would have dumped Brady to play Garapolo if it was his decision. There is no room for sentimental shit. It’s a business. Same thing with Chris. The agent who made that comment sounds like a former Ranger players agent. Could be a current Rangers player. Gorton would not engaged in serious contract discussions. Sounds like the Kevin Hayes situation. The Rangers knew what he wanted and they never seriously discussed a contract. Before the deadline, the Rangers touched base with the Hayes camp but nothing had changed.

 

[nyrage]

Assuming you're logically realizing this rebuild is going to take a lot longer than people seem to expect, I guess your desire is for us to be in lottery contention for a solid 3 years or so? If that's your goal than yes, let's do all you just said.

Shame that we'll never bottom out like Detroit and that even doing so only grants us a 50% or so chance at getting a top 3 pick. Otherwise your plan is flawless. 3 First overalls would be amazing! Or would it? Not all teams succeed with two+ top picks. See: Devils. (and Oilers forever).

Otherwise I have no idea what your plan is. McKegg, Howden or Chytil as top center if/when Zibby goes down. One of those 3 as 2nd center for the whole season period. Perfect.

Kreider, Georgiev, Strome, Fast... not getting us a 2C. Skjei in a package maybe but doubtful. This is full on tank talk. Let's compete with DET. But hey, guess it's better than drafting 12th, that much is true.

It's funny because ADA will become our most valuable and worthy trade chip soon if he isn't already. And I'd love to keep him. Just facing the reality that to get that 2C we need so badly we need to trade from a position of strength and we're not getting a young solid center without dangling ADA. Trouba's going nowhere, Fox isn't flashy enough, and Lundkvist hasn't even played in the NHL yet.

Trading Skjei and then losing Staal and Smith (addition by subtraction, I know, I get it but you need to see this from an NHL coach perspective for a second) when we have no top LD prospects except, maybe, Miller who isn't NHL ready yet... well, let's just give up on defense period. Thinking Hajek, Lindgren and Rykov are just stepping in?

We need to trade people, yes, but we need the right returns. With the right returns it CAN free up other trades, but if we get lower value than we're expecting (which is almost certainly the case), then trading Strome and Skjei along with the others means tank tank city for a nice 3 years easily. So again, I assume that's the plan you prefer. I don't mind if we get lucky and build right, but we'll lose Breads best years, and some of Zibby's too.

Regardless, TDL and off-season will be very interesting for this team and how it can progress. I wouldn't wanna be in charge and I both do and don't look forward to seeing what happens before next season.

Well, I guess my short post wasn't exactly a detailed plan. I don't think that we are close to true contention., but I'm not suggesting tanking either.

On the current team, we have 2 great forwards in their prime (Zib and Panarin) and two high-potential forwards in KK. and Chytil, a good defenseman in Trouba, and 2 very good young pieces in Fox and ADA. Then we have Shesty in net for the future. That's basically our core imo. Lemieux is probably a keeper for our bottom-six and Lindgren is a physical def that could develop into core contributor. It's a good start if we stay patient.

So, as far as my trade list. I love CK, but I don't want to commit a lot of money or years for him in his post-prime. If it happens, well, so be it. I like him, but I would rather trade him. If we could get a young forward prospect for him, then great. If not, whatever we get can be packaged in a trade in the off-season.

I like Fast, but I don't think he belongs in the top 6 which is more about our lack of forwards than his abilities. I would re-sign him for the bottom six if we could get him cheap enough, but if that's not the plan by Management, then trade him. I believe that we should trade our UFAs if we don't plan to bring them back.

Skjei - I would try to trade him for a young forward. Teams are desperate for defensemen. I rather use his cap space for ADA. I don't believe that trading Skjei is a great loss. We have defensemen in the pipeline. Sure, the team probably takes a hit for the rest of the year and maybe even next year, but we also gain 3 years of valuable $5.3 cap space.

Strome - At his current cap hit, no problem. What's his next contract going to cost? He's definitely fattened up his bottom line riding shotgun to Panarin. Imo, Strome is a flawed, but good secondary scorer. He's not someone that I would want to commit big dollars as a core piece.

I'm not suggesting the above with the purpose of tanking the next year or three, nor do I believe trading the above sets us way back. It's about putting the team in best position to succeed in a couple of years since I don't think we're close this year or the next. It will take some time for our defensemen overhaul. This team isn't going to win anything as currently constructed.
Whatever assets we get can be traded to get young assets already in the NHL or close to it. That would be my route. I don't want to endlessly tank to keeping adding draft picks.

I don't think we should sacrifice long term success or flexibility to make our team more fringe-competitive in Panarin's next year or so. We started a complete rebuild that would take 4-5 years to be a sustained contender. We're in year 2 of it. Panarin should still be a high end player in a couple of years. Anyway, that's my opinion. I'll let Gorton do his thing.

 

[NYR Viper]

Yes and no.

Kreider is an UFA who will require a new contract at anywhere from $1 million to nearly $2 million more per season in salary, well into his 30s, and require a movement clause. He's also a guy who is playing behind an elite LW.

We're not moving players to fit Skjei in there, there's not an elite LD he's playing behind, and he's very much movable at a later date.

Personally, I think our LW depth is slightly better, and arguably a little easier to improve post-Kreider than our LD in a similar scenario in which Skjei isn't replaced.

Now, if the Rangers go out and get a LD, I think it's a moot point and I can easily see them moving Skjei. But without that in place, I think our defense, which already trails our offense, only gets worse.

I understand this point. But if there was a solid deal on the table for Skjei after this season, I'd seriously consider moving him without the next move lined up immediately. I would be hoping that the pieces and flexibility the move would create could allow for Gorton to get creative and be aggressive.

 

[RangerBoy]

Depending on what they do with Kreider, I'm not sure the budget a few years out is as big of a concern as it is maybe next season.

You have a lot of money coming off the books after the 2020-2021 season.

The question is how the Rangers go about navigating the stretch of time between right now and July 1, 2021. That would also give them a good indication as to what Fox's second contract might look like.

The Rangers have Panarin signed for 6 more seasons. Kreider will get 6 or 7 years. Zibanejad will be a free agent in 2 more seasons. How many years for him? He will be 29 when his current deal expires. Is it a really a good idea to have so much money and term tied up in three forwards in the 30’s?I remember Gorton saying he wanted the Rangers to be good for a long time instead of having a team good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to win a championship. There will be other players to come along.

 

[Charlie Conway]

We went from LD as a strength and RD as a severe weakness to a complete reversal. RD are hard to find, and we have options, especially if our RD prospects continue to develop. Trouba takes the harder assignments and gets some flack for it, but he's doing his job to open up better matchups for ADA and Fox.

I'd like to get Rykov in for a game and see what's there. Hajek looks like he needs more time, but I'm interested to see what Rykov looks like at the NHL level. I remember Knoblauch saying that he felt that Hajek was ahead of Rykov in terms of his NHL-level skills, but I'm curious if that holds true.

I do like Lindgren quite a bit. As a 21 y/o rookie defenseman, he's going to make mistakes, but the important thing is that he's not stagnating. If he can bring that defensive stability and physical presence to a more offensive d-man as he's been doing, then I'm all for it.

For me, most of it hinges on Skjei. If you think he can up his game and get back on track, that's one thing. But if you think he's a good skater with some defensive ability but a limited ability to read the play, (a better John Moore?) that's problematic and needs a fix.

And Ryan Graves is the one that got away...the trade made sense--struggling guy for struggling guy, but I always thought he had a next level to hit, and he has. After being very wrong about guys like Oscar Lindberg, Roman Horak, and Robin Kovacs over the years, I'm happy to hit on one, but I wish it had been with us.

 

[Edge]

The Rangers have Panarin signed for 6 more seasons. Kreider will get 6 or 7 years. Zibanejad will be a free agent in 2 more seasons. How many years for him? He will be 29 when his current deal expires. Is it a really a good idea to have so much money and term tied up in three forwards in the 30’s?I remember Gorton saying he wanted the Rangers to be good for a long time instead of having a team good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to win a championship. There will be other players to come along.

And if I had to guess, I think that's a lot of what it driving their approach to this point.

I'm not sure there's quite as much consternation internally on this issue as there is externally.

 

[Ardi44]

The Rangers have Panarin signed for 6 more seasons. Kreider will get 6 or 7 years. Zibanejad will be a free agent in 2 more seasons. How many years for him? He will be 29 when his current deal expires. Is it a really a good idea to have so much money and term tied up in three forwards in the 30’s?I remember Gorton saying he wanted the Rangers to be good for a long time instead of having a team good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to win a championship. There will be other players to come along.

trade mika too then. when does it stop?

 

[I Eat Crow]

The Rangers have Panarin signed for 6 more seasons. Kreider will get 6 or 7 years. Zibanejad will be a free agent in 2 more seasons. How many years for him? He will be 29 when his current deal expires. Is it a really a good idea to have so much money and term tied up in three forwards in the 30’s?I remember Gorton saying he wanted the Rangers to be good for a long time instead of having a team good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to win a championship. There will be other players to come along.

The Rangers are stuck with Panarin. They'll have no choice but to bring Zibanejad back unless Gorton pulls a rabbit out of the hat and can get a trade for a center like Jack Eichel done. The only reason we're talking about Kreider extending is who in the system is taking his place and eating his minutes? Besides Kravstov and MAYBE Barron, the prospect pool is barren of any potential top 9 forwards. Gorton made this mess, and he's going to have to trade and maneuver his way out of it.

The Shattenkirk and Girardi buyouts are going to end up doing more to harm this team than help them. There's so little cap room this summer to improve the team because of all of the dead money from the buyouts. The Rangers weren't going to contend this year. The Shattenkirk buyout especially was a Hail Mary that Panarin was going to put the team on his back and surge the team into the playoffs. He's put the team on his back, but the issues with the team stem from more than lack of offensive depth.

The Rangers are exactly where I thought they would end up this year. Missing the playoffs and just missing an impact forward in the draft, picking right around 8th to 11th overall. The carousel of mediocrity goes round and round...

 

[BBKers]

The Rangers are stuck with Panarin. They'll have no choice but to bring Zibanejad back unless Gorton pulls a rabbit out of the hat and can get a trade for a center like Jack Eichel done. The only reason we're talking about Kreider extending is who in the system is taking his place and eating his minutes? Besides Kravstov and MAYBE Barron, the prospect pool is barren of any potential top 9 forwards. Gorton made this mess, and he's going to have to trade and maneuver his way out of it.

The Shattenkirk and Girardi buyouts are going to end up doing more to harm this team than help them. There's so little cap room this summer to improve the team because of all of the dead money from the buyouts. The Rangers weren't going to contend this year. The Shattenkirk buyout especially was a Hail Mary that Panarin was going to put the team on his back and surge the team into the playoffs. He's put the team on his back, but the issues with the team stem from more than lack of offensive depth.

The Rangers are exactly where I thought they would end up this year. Missing the playoffs and just missing an impact forward in the draft, picking right around 8th to 11th overall. The carousel of mediocrity goes round and round...

We will win the #1 or #2 pick. Watch...

 

[haohmaru]

The Rangers have Panarin signed for 6 more seasons. Kreider will get 6 or 7 years. Zibanejad will be a free agent in 2 more seasons. How many years for him? He will be 29 when his current deal expires. Is it a really a good idea to have so much money and term tied up in three forwards in the 30’s?I remember Gorton saying he wanted the Rangers to be good for a long time instead of having a team good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to win a championship. There will be other players to come along.

Considering the Rangers and their dearth of ever having a legit #1 center over the past 25 years, I say that Kreider goes and Zibanejad is the guy they have to sign. Whatever doubts there might have been I think the last two years erase any that pertain to him being a #1 center. Since the Rangers can't seem to ever, in the history of this franchise, draft a #1 - they are going to have to pay one.

 

[Kupo]

trade mika too then. when does it stop?

It doesn’t stop. It’s a cycle of making one tough decision after another.

The difference with Zbad is he’s a Center and he’s a better player than CK. It’ll also be easier to commit to Zbad long term without 7M locked up with Kreider.

 

[NYR Viper]

The Rangers are stuck with Panarin. They'll have no choice but to bring Zibanejad back unless Gorton pulls a rabbit out of the hat and can get a trade for a center like Jack Eichel done. The only reason we're talking about Kreider extending is who in the system is taking his place and eating his minutes? Besides Kravstov and MAYBE Barron, the prospect pool is barren of any potential top 9 forwards. Gorton made this mess, and he's going to have to trade and maneuver his way out of it.

The Shattenkirk and Girardi buyouts are going to end up doing more to harm this team than help them. There's so little cap room this summer to improve the team because of all of the dead money from the buyouts. The Rangers weren't going to contend this year. The Shattenkirk buyout especially was a Hail Mary that Panarin was going to put the team on his back and surge the team into the playoffs. He's put the team on his back, but the issues with the team stem from more than lack of offensive depth.

The Rangers are exactly where I thought they would end up this year. Missing the playoffs and just missing an impact forward in the draft, picking right around 8th to 11th overall. The carousel of mediocrity goes round and round...

In fairness, the team has Lemieux, Chytil, Kakko and Howden on the team right now. All (4) of those guys are super young and I'd argue are all capable of being everyday 3rd liners right now (exception being Howden, although he has looked better at wing to me). So while it's really just Kravtsov and Barron as higher end forward prospects, I'd argue they have some depth there.

I'd also argue that should they trade Kreider, there will be a younger forward in the Lemieux mold coming back no matter what, in which case we have another, more than likely, 3rd line option moving forward.

I'm not overly in love with the Shattenkirk buyout myself, however it allowed for ADA and Fox to get a lot of meaningful minutes this year. That's a plus.

I get the sense that both Trouba and Panarin were about adding (2) key pieces to the organization for the eventual surge that will come next season, not so much this season. It just so happened that those key pieces were available a year early and Gorton didn't want to just wait and miss them both. Looking at this upcoming off-season, there in't much to poach to help.

 

[BBKers]

So, we will draft Byfield in June and Räty in 2021. Center situation solved...

 

[NYR Viper]

This isn't even a conversation. Look at the stat lines for Zibanejad and Kreider. What Zibanejad has done as a 25 and 26 year old in the NHL is very high end as far as his offensive output and his defensive play is superb. He plays in every situation and is very good in the face-off circle. I have NO ISSUE re-signing Zibanejad in 2 years time as a 29 year old. The team should also be in a much better spot at that time in terms of being in their window to actually win some playoff rounds.

 

[BBKers]

Panarin is filthy. Although he has some chemistry with Strome, imagine surrounding him with real legit C talent and a finisher.