Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by DLOs monstruous neck, Jun 23, 2019.
Nothing to do with Montreal. He would suck anywhere he plays.
Some of you are way too harsh on our players and Drouin is a bit unfairly treated as this board's whipping boy for a while it seems (not that it's unjustified).
To be fair, Drouin hasn't been as good as he could be and that fact coupled with his effort level frustrates the hell out of me (and most fans) quite often. then after pathetic performances in his games he goes to answer media questions and says he gave it his best and that it didn't work out when he clearly didn't (the stupid, grinning, soft *****!). Just thinking about it makes me angry, but we've got to stay calm and level-headed in our evaluations of players and so, by necessity, I will contain the fury Drouin's demeanor and smartass, attention-seeking, endorsement-rocking, cocky SOB attitude creates and try to see him through a neutral prism and viewpoint. Let me just say that it isn't the easiest thing in the world.
Objectively, despite his very obvious shortcomings Drouin still is a 50+ points winger that showed some nice things with Domi in the beginning of last year when we were playing a more offense-oriented style (probably Ducharme's influence). He is a winger that exhibits high-end skill on a regular basis and that could maybe finally ''figure out'' how to be successful in the NHL in the next couple of years, if he gets his head out of his pompous behind. That kind of player is not someone you build your team around, nor is it someone you should trade a strong top-4 defense prospect for, but a player like that remains a useful complementary piece to a mediocre offensive team. In that sense, the idea that we should demote Drouin out of the top-6 to give more ice-time to our younger players like Kotkaniemi or Poehling, is valid, as they have great potential, but only if those two players show that they are ready for the elevated opportunities and tougher matchups. Incidentally, it doesn't make sense for Drouin to sit in favor of guys like Lehkonen, Byron, Armia and other players like that.
Domi, as he has just had a very good season as a center, should not be switched to the wing yet to the profit of Poehling or Mint, he'll play center next year while one of those two youngsters will play the wing while developing their game this year, Shaw's trade cemented that fact in my mind.
Anyways, enough prattle, here is my lineup for our team as it stands today.
He's the definition of the "top 6 or out of the lineup" kind of player.
Tatar is middle 6, he's a 40-50 pts guy. He just happens to have good chemistry with our currently best center. If KK progress, he will have to slide down as Domi might be headed back to LW.
Looking at players with a similar amount of points last year,
William Karlsson, Kevin lebanc, Josh Bailey, Mikael granlund, Jamie benn, Brock Nelson, Justin Williams, Nino nidereiter, Gallagher, Kreider, eric staal, Anders Lee, Patrik Laine.
How is he not a top 6? If you split the season in two, sure. He started as an elite top 3 winger for the first half and was a mediocre ahler for the other half but overall last year he was a top 6 forward.
Ya Poehling won’t play first line right wing boss
Tatar - Danault - Gallagher
Drouin - Domi - Barber
Kotkaniemi - Cousins - Armia
Poehling - Weal - Lehkonen
'' We have 6 Centerman playing in the line-up right now. It's a luxury to have. KK can learn his 200feet game on the wing and come back to play Center later on. Same goes for Poehling, they need to proves themself. '' - MB after 41 games.
thx god Michel is gone.
I'm not so certain. If Mete hasn't improved his shot and Kulak can sustain or even build upon his play from last season, than I wouldn't be surprised if Kulak gets first nod next to Weber.
60 would be beyond a good step forward. If he generally plays 3C with #1 PP time than I'll be happy with a 45-50 point season.
Whoever gets Shaw's spot is in line for a good season so my guess is one of Lehkonen or Armia. If you make choose, I'll say Armia surprises with 20 goals and 40+ points. Not a huge limb, but still a career year.
Sorry bro, but check your math. 58 is not between 40 and 50...
Also if there are 186 top 6 forwards (6 for each of the 31 teams) and Tatar finished 70th in points by a forward, it's going to be pretty hard for you to argue Tatar isn't top 6.
In fact, given there are 93 top line forwards, 3 for each of the 31 teams, an argument can be made he's a top line forward. And in fact, the Tatar-Danault-Gallagher line was one the top 5 lines statistically in the nhl 5 on 5 last year.
I did say middle 6 as in: depending on team he will slot at different spot, depending who he is connecting with. In this case, because he's currently attached to the hip of Domi, I guess he's a top 6 guy right now.
I love comments like this... shows how poorly understood and misused statistical references are.
So, quick question, how many teams in the league today would you take the line of Tatar-Danault-Gallagher over their top line?
I'm curious if you can name fewer than 20 lol...
Hmmm...he didn't play much with Domi last year. He played mainly with Danault...
I didn't use the statistics to say that line would be taken over 20 teams' top lines. I used them to say Tatar is a top 6 forward.
I love comments that try to criticize others for misusing statistics, but which totally missed how the statistics were being used. Lol.
So do you list those players to suggest you'd consider Drouin = Nylander/Benn/Gallagher/Laine et?
if not, what point are you making? That Drouin scored as many points last year? What does that matter or mean?
We aren't focused on building an awesome EA sports lineup. Drouin, at his performance level the past 2 years, is not a good top-6 w option for a playoff focused team.
Doesn't mean he won't or can't score more than players who would be better top-6 wingers... putting up points isn't the only metric to evaluate players.... but even if we did use that narrow stat line, i'd argue that a player who disappeared from the stat sheet for more than 1/4 of the season, through the most important part of the season, is NOT a good or even decent top-6 option for a team with playoff aspirations.
Can he do better? We all damn well hope so. But if he doesn't make it work with Domi, and CJ does the wise thing and shifts Domi to JKO's wing, then I hope we trade him as quickly as possible because we saw what he looks like reduced to a bottom-6 role, and it's not pretty.
are you just not adept at reading, or do you really not understand the post?
Let me try to make it simple for you:
- Tatar-Danault-Gallagher are not a top tier "first line".
- You can cherry pick some stats to suggest they are, and that works if you don't understand the purpose of statistics.
- Taking time to use your brain, and think through how many first lines you think are better than them is a good first step to appreciating how poorly you used statistics in the first instances... and an opportunity to then reflect and consider why you made such a silly post in the first place.
THE POST AND DISCUSSION WERE ABOUT: IS TATAR A TOP 6 FORWARD.
What do you not understand about that???
If you're going to argue against Tatar being a top 6 forward, a better question you could have asked is: are there 20 teams that have a better 2ND LINE than the Tatar-Danault-Gallagher line.
Again I repeat, because it seems to not be sinking in, the discussion was about whether Tatar is a top 6 forward or not. If you have any disagreements with that claim or any evidence used to support the claim, please put them forth. Otherwise you're just trying to tell other people to use their brains when yours missed the point and clearly wasn't working.
I see, you're confusing who you are replying to... happens i guess.
I quoted and replied to your comment referencing the Tatar-Danault-Gallagher line as one of the top 5 on 5 lines in the league... pointing out how that kind of comment is a farcical, or worse, poor deceptive attempt at using of statistics.
Perhaps check the actual post your quoting next time before going crazy with the caps.
To answer the NEW questions/comments you offered in this post that i'm quoting:
while there are 60 "first line" winger slots & 120 "top-6" winger slots, i don't think it's as simple or direct an equivalent to say something like "Tatar is the 50th best winger therefore he's a top-line winger"... one of Anisimov/Pageau/Tierney will be ottawa's "first line C" this year yet I doubt many would consider any one of them a "first line C".
to clarify, from my perspective (which is the desire to see the team win a stanley cup), i look at labels like "top-6C" or "first line winger" to refer to a player who could hold down that roll effectively on a top-tier (top-10) team in the league.... so a first line guy would need to be legitimately in the top 10-20 in his position to make that case...
Tatar was a top-6 forward for us last year. Is he a quality top-6 winger (top 40-60, by my reference)? i'd personally view him more in the mediocre (average, 50-80 range) caliber if considering league-wide top-6 forwards (again, "quality" referring to on a top-tier team)
While he is reliable beyond his offensive game, he's certainly not a defensive game breaker... productivity-wise, he was in the top 30 LW as far as pts & ppg, but keep in mind he had a career-best season, and there will be young players making the jump this coming season.
as SOLR pointed out i believe, more of a quality middle-6 winger... somewhere in the 50-80 range as far as NHL wingers go
Are there 20 2nd lines in the NHL, as of today, I'd pick ahead of Tatar - Danault - Gallagher? hmmm, interesting question (though, keep in mind that, statistically speaking, they were our first line last year... remains to be seen what will unfold this year).
I'd view them as middle of the pack, somewhere in the 10-20 range of current/projected NHL 2nd lines (and yet, they quite likely could be called better than some teams top line... Ott, for example.... that doesn't then make them a "first line" caliber group even if they are better than some other teams assembled first line)
I was mentioning the stat about their 5 on 5 prowess as a quick way to say that he's on a good line - i.e. he's not just putting up points playing on a bad line...
If you want to go by is he a top 4 winger on an elite team, as opposed to better than 124 wingers in the league (which would make him technically a top 4 winger on at least 1 team in the 31 team league), here is a list of the 4 wingers in terms of production on the best 5 teams in the league (don't have time to go through every team in the league). I think Tatar and his 58 points could play top 6 winger on any of these elite teams:
Tampa: Kucherov, Gourde, Kilorn, and Anthony Cirelli.
Calgary: Gaudreau, Tkacuk, Backlund (47), Frolick (34)
Boston: Marchand, Pasternak, Debrusk (42), Heinen(34)/Kuraly, Wagner
Washington: Ovechkin, Oshie, Wilson, Vrana (47)
NYI: Bailey (56), Lee(51), Eberle (37), Beauvilier(28)
From the looks of this, he's closer to a 1st line winger, as his 58 points (70th in the league) and perhaps even on 2 of the 5 elite teams above.
And this is just going on production. He's also reliable defensively and a character player with a good work ethic. I think he's still underrated because of his brief problems fitting in Vegas for a brief period. Same is true of David Perron. After his 67 point seasson, he had a mediocre post season and only signed for 4 million in St. Louis (I was banging the wall that we didn't get him at that cap hit!). The next year he goes out and has a pretty good year in helping the Blues win the cup.
I originally wanted to use Tatar for picks when we got him. But he's such a beauty I hope he retires a Hab. At least that's what I was saying last year after every time he scored. But then again, perhaps that's how we all feel right after any player scores, ha.
Effective players are not defined by the number of points they get, but by the difference between the goals/scoring chances created compared to goals/scoring chance allowed. Drouin, by the eye test and the numbers, was very bad last season. He was also leading the NHL worst powerplay. He is soft as butter, and seem like an odd guy as well. He is not a top 6 player. Lehkonen is a much more effective player at the moment, even though he is not getting as many points as Drouin.
? where do you get your lines/depth chart from?
Cirelli was the 8th most used forward for the bolts last year... and they again have 7-8 players ahead of him on teh depth chart this year. not sure how/why you would insert him.
Ditto frolik on the flames.
So you're first two examples were flat out wrong... not going to bother looking at the rest.
If you think Tatar is a quality top-6 winger option, that's great. I don't think that there is much to substantiate that, I would not call him a quality top-6 W option for a top-tier caliber team. Which does not mean that he couldn't play or even succeed in that role... the beauty about having a strongly built roster with elite talent, is that when you get the big pieces right, you can get more out of the complimentary pieces than you can with a roster as poorly built as ours.
Kucherov, Gaudreau, Crosby... these guys have a way of elevating the players around them. Tatar no doubt could produce nicely next to an elite talent, heck he got a PB playing with Danault lol... But that doesn't make him a quality top-6 winger.
Of course, none of this is a knock on him... at a 4.8M$ cap hit, he's giving us tremendous value... if our GM wasn't such a tool, he'd be a great piece to have in place and further build up from... he's just not suited to be the kind of impact player i'd consider a "quality" top-6 winger.
Not totally relevant, but an observation to consider...
NHL network just released a poll inquiring about who the top dman in the league is... they posted 25 players to choose from, our Shea Weber was not on the list
Weber, imo, remains both a top pairing dman, and a #1 dman (quality for now, though let's see what/if there is decline this year as he's not far removed from falling from that status), yet the NHL network doesn't seem to have him on their radar for top-25....
all of this type of talk is always going to be heavily subjective
These were the 4 wingers with the best production on each of these teams. If they didn't play top 4 minutes, that means someone else did with even less production... The examples are not wrong. You should look at them if you're making the claim that Tatar can't play top 6 on an elite team. That statement you made, is incorrect.
That Tatar produced at a top 6 rate playing with Danault as his center only proves the point even more...
uhhhmmm you might want to recheck your tampa info... Cirelli was 8th in toi/g, 8th in pts, and 9th in ppg.
also, there's not much point responding if you don't first read the post you are responding to.
Direct quote from my post:
"Tatar no doubt could produce nicely next to an elite talent, heck he got a PB playing with Danault lol... "
As I stated Cirelli was Tampa's 4th highest producing winger (39 points). So if he wasn't top 6 that means someone else was with even worse production.
So you tell me: who are Tampa's top 4 wingers that are better than Tatar??? Hint: there aren't 4. So, Tatar is a top 6 winger on elite teams, just as he is throughout the NHL...
Yes the quote you bolded just proves the point: Tatar produced at a top 6 winger rate even without an elite center.
You made the statement that Tatar isn't top 6 on an elite team. Yet he is top 6 on the top 5 teams in the league. Do you have any evidence to say he's not? Or were you just talking out of your rear end?
Oh, I see.... You don't understand that some sites list players in positions they don't always play, and some teams move players around....
Sorry, thought you were familiar enough with hockey to understand that.
Let me simplify it for you, again.
7 TB forwards played more minutes than Corelli.
7 scored more.
8 scored more per game.
Clear enough for you?
The bolded did indeed make the point that you responded without reading the post you quoted.
Hard to have any kind of discussion when that happens.
I understand all of those things.
It's pretty simple: list Tampa's top 6, including who are the top 2 centers that played center and who are the 4 players who played wing that are better than Tatar? If you can't do that and put it down in a reply to this post, then you have your answer - because you have no answer.
Separate names with a comma.