Vincenzo Arelliti
He Can't Play Center
If Thomas is forced to be our 2C, I would be comfortable saying he will hit more than 10G 33Pts. I’m also pretty confident in his defensive abilities.
If Thomas is forced to be our 2C, I would be comfortable saying he will hit more than 10G 33Pts. I’m also pretty confident in his defensive abilities.
Talking about Brouwer got me thinking.
Current Blue
Later Traded
Left in Free Agency
Here's All The Moving Pieces It Took To Make The Ryan O'Reilly (And I Suppose a Bit Of The Schenn) Trade Happen:
OUT:[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Tage Thompson
Patrik Berglund
Vladimir Sobotka
STL '19 1st
STL '21 2nd
Ryan O'Reilly
STL '16 1st 28OA (Lucas Johansen)
WSH '16 3rd 87OA (Garrett Pilon)
WSH '16 1st 26OA (Tage Thompson)
WSH '17 1st 27OA (Morgan Frost)
STL '18 1st 14OA (Joel Farabee)
Jori Lehtera
Brayden Schenn
Kevin Shattenkirk w/ retention
Pheonix Copley
WSH '17 1st 27OA (Morgan Frost)
Conditional WSH '17 2nd(Joni Ikonen)
Zach Sanford
Brad Malone
T.J. Oshie
Troy Brouwer
Pheonix Copley
WSH '16 3rd 87OA (Garrett Pilon)
Jaroslav Halak
Chris Stewart
William Carrier
STL '15 1st 25OA (Jack Roslovic)
STL '16 3rd 89OA (Linus Nassen)
Ryan Miller
Steve Ott
Erik Johnson
Jay McClement
STL '11 11OA (Duncan Siemens)
Kevin Shattenkirk
Chris Stewart
COL '11 2nd 32OA (Ty Rattie)
David Warsofsky
Vladimir Sobotka
Tage Thompson
Patrik Berglund
Vladimir Sobotka
STL '19 1st
STL '21 2nd
STL '17 1st 28OA
WSH '17 3rd 87OA
Kevin Shattenkirk
Pheonix Copley
T.J. Oshie
Jaroslav Halak
Chris Stewart
William Carrier
STL '15 1st 25OA
STL '16 3rd 89OA
Erik Johnson
STL '11 1st 11OA
Jay McClement
David Warsofsky
CURRENT BLUE:
Ryan O'Reilly
Brayden Schenn
Zach Sanford
LEFT IN FA:
Troy Bouwer
Brad Malone
Ty Rattie
In other words:
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
LOST TO FREE AGENCY TRADED OUT CURRENT BLUE Troy Brouwer
Brad Malone
Ty RattieT.J. Oshie
Kevin Shattenkirk
Erik Johnson
Jaroslav Halak
Patrik Berglund
Vladimir Sobotka
Jori Lehtera
Chris Stewart
Jay McClement
Tage Thompson
Pheonix Copley
William Carrier
David Warsofsky
STL '11 1st 11OA
STL '15 1st 25OA
STL '17 1st 28OA
STL '18 1st 14OA
STL '19 1st
STL '21 2nd
STL '16 3rd 89OA
WAS '17 3rd 87OARyan O'Reilly
Brayden Schenn
Zach Sanford
All the Tim Hortons in STL boarded up about a year ago, this trade has been in the works for awhile.Great player, but do not let this man drive.
Great player, but do not let this man drive.
Nice username and avatar. I loved that Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode Manos The Hands Of Fate.Great player, but do not let this man drive.
Talking about Brouwer got me thinking.
Current Blue
Later Traded
Left in Free Agency
Here's All The Moving Pieces It Took To Make The Ryan O'Reilly (And I Suppose a Bit Of The Schenn) Trade Happen:
OUT:[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Tage Thompson
Patrik Berglund
Vladimir Sobotka
STL '19 1st
STL '21 2nd
Ryan O'Reilly
STL '16 1st 28OA (Lucas Johansen)
WSH '16 3rd 87OA (Garrett Pilon)
WSH '16 1st 26OA (Tage Thompson)
WSH '17 1st 27OA (Morgan Frost)
STL '18 1st 14OA (Joel Farabee)
Jori Lehtera
Brayden Schenn
Kevin Shattenkirk w/ retention
Pheonix Copley
WSH '17 1st 27OA (Morgan Frost)
Conditional WSH '17 2nd(Joni Ikonen)
Zach Sanford
Brad Malone
T.J. Oshie
Troy Brouwer
Pheonix Copley
WSH '16 3rd 87OA (Garrett Pilon)
Jaroslav Halak
Chris Stewart
William Carrier
STL '15 1st 25OA (Jack Roslovic)
STL '16 3rd 89OA (Linus Nassen)
Ryan Miller
Steve Ott
Erik Johnson
Jay McClement
STL '11 11OA (Duncan Siemens)
Kevin Shattenkirk
Chris Stewart
COL '11 2nd 32OA (Ty Rattie)
David Warsofsky
Vladimir Sobotka
Tage Thompson
Patrik Berglund
Vladimir Sobotka
STL '19 1st
STL '21 2nd
STL '17 1st 28OA
WSH '17 3rd 87OA
Kevin Shattenkirk
Pheonix Copley
T.J. Oshie
Jaroslav Halak
Chris Stewart
William Carrier
STL '15 1st 25OA
STL '16 3rd 89OA
Erik Johnson
STL '11 1st 11OA
Jay McClement
David Warsofsky
CURRENT BLUE:
Ryan O'Reilly
Brayden Schenn
Zach Sanford
LEFT IN FA:
Troy Bouwer
Brad Malone
Ty Rattie
In other words:
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
LOST TO FREE AGENCY TRADED OUT CURRENT BLUE Troy Brouwer
Brad Malone
Ty RattieT.J. Oshie
Kevin Shattenkirk
Erik Johnson
Jaroslav Halak
Patrik Berglund
Vladimir Sobotka
Jori Lehtera
Chris Stewart
Jay McClement
Tage Thompson
Pheonix Copley
William Carrier
David Warsofsky
STL '11 1st 11OA
STL '15 1st 25OA
STL '17 1st 28OA
STL '18 1st 14OA
STL '19 1st
STL '21 2nd
STL '16 3rd 89OA
WAS '17 3rd 87OARyan O'Reilly
Brayden Schenn
Zach Sanford
The Blues gave up 4 1st for two low end 1C.
That's a little misleading to say the Blues gave up four 1sts for a low end 1C.
Except for the fact that he hasn't given up four 1st round draft picks. This is a very flawed way to look at asset management going back to 2010.I don’t know how it’s misleading. Part of one 1st was to bury Lethra however they did give up 4 1st round picks for two players. More than that considering the 2nd we gave up as well.
So the point still stands, any time offer sheets come up the thought of giving up 4 1st is viewed as crazy by most fans on these forums but that what Armstrong has done.
I’m completely happy with him doing so and think it was the better approach than putting all his eggs in one basket with an Elite potiental 1C.
Thomas is the major reason for that the Blues got extremely lucky there.
No, we wouldn't have been better offer sheeting someone a few years ago. It is entirely different and can't be compared.I don’t know how it’s misleading. Part of one 1st was to bury Lethra however they did give up 4 1st round picks for two players. More than that considering the 2nd we gave up as well.
So the point still stands, any time offer sheets come up the thought of giving up 4 1st is viewed as crazy by most fans on these forums but that what Armstrong has done.
I’m completely happy with him doing so and think it was the better approach than putting all his eggs in one basket with an Elite potiental 1C.
Thomas is the major reason for that the Blues got extremely lucky there.
I'm a fan of the moves this offseason, but let's not forget Backes/Stastny so easily.
Except for the fact that he hasn't given up four 1st round draft picks. This is a very flawed way to look at asset management going back to 2010.
It would be more correct to look at net assets in versus out.
For example - the Blues may have sent a 2011 1st to Colorado (which I assume you are counting as one of the four 1sts), but they also received Colorado's second round pick. Blues pick ended up 11th overall. Avalanche pick ended up 32. The net value here is completely different than surrendering a 1st round pick altogether in a offer sheet scenario. Also factor in that Shattenkirk was traded for a 1st round pick in 2017 which was then traded to Philly for Schenn.
It would be more accurate to say that the Blues traded their 2018 1st and traded back 21 spots in the 2011 NHL draft for Brayden Schenn than it would be to say that we traded three first round picks in that deal. Not to mention all the intermediate value we received with Shattenkirk, Stewart, et. al. in the Blues system for x number of games.
Your still missing the point. Has nothing to do with Jhonson trade. He has given up 4 1st round draft picks without going back to Jhonson.
Schenn was 2017 Washington 1st and
2018 Blues 1st some value of which buried Lethra.
Orielly was 2019 Blues 1st and 2016 Blues 1st (Tage Thompson) and a 2nd in a distant galaxy far far away.
It was still 4 1st round pick even if one was Washington’s from the Shattenkirk trade.
No, we wouldn't have been better offer sheeting someone a few years ago. It is entirely different and can't be compared.
To sign a player to an offersheet that the other team won't match means that you are overpaying that player. So not only are you overpaying a player, you are compounding that by giving up your next 4 chances of getting an impact player on an ELC to offset it. That is why it is seen as crazy.
How high are you going to have to go on an elite centre to have the other team not match? Now, if you are looking at someone like Matthews then you are looking at a ridiculous number for the Leafs not to match.
Also, you are moving 4 unknowns in an offersheet. We moved 2; the 2018 first & 2019 first. We knew the board in 2017 when we made the Schenn trade. We had Thompson for 2 years when we made the O'Reilly trade. We have a far better idea of what we're walking away from.
We also made these trades while still selecting other players in the first round. It was done on the basis that we knew we could move those pieces and still be adding quality to our prospect pool.
The truly elite centres are near impossible to get without drafting them, or the Bruins being idiots. Offer sheets won't work, at least not without crippling the acquiring teams cap situation.
You're still missing the point that 4 consecutive 1st round picks with zero lottery protection is significantly different than 4 assets that are a combination of your own (lottery protected) 1sts, another team's 1st and a prospect who is 2 years removed from being a 1st round pick. At the time of the ROR trade, we had drastically more info about what Thompson would become than we would have any of the 1st rounders used in an offer sheet. It is pretty certain that Thompson is not going to be a franchise player. The same can not be said about 1sts used in an offer sheet. Being able to use Washington's 1st in the Schenn trade instead of our own was a big deal because it allowed us to take Thomas (who was likely the last guy we identified as a grade A prospect and wouldn't have been available if he had to lose our own 1st instead of Washington's).
A combination of any 4 assets that were once 1st rounders of some type is drastically different than trading your own 1st round pick in 4 consecutive years. Especially since both of our own 1st rounders were top-10 protected, which you can't do with an offer sheet.
So even before you get to the cap implications of successfully offersheeting a superstar RFA, your premise that Army has given up equal compensation is flawed. By your logic, we should have held a parade when Army traded a 3rd round pick for the 2012 first overall pick.
Well at least you finally got the point. Next time just say I’m sorry I misunderstood what you were saying after one post where you said I was misleading and another where you thought I was referencing the Jhonson trade rather than trying to attack my logic by saying this is anywhere near trading for Yakapouv.
4 1st round picks in which we would all assumed to be bottoms of the round hold the same value until the player has been selected. If your not a playoff team why give up the picks?
There is of course more risk associated with your team not making the playoffs. The upside is you could have an Elite C under team control for 7 years even if you have to overpay.
I said I preferred the team we have now and that there was less risk associated with the way Armstrong traded the 4 1st. The fact that we drafted Thomas skews that heavily.
However, we have long lacked an Elite Center I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss it.
Learn how to read user names before being condescending and assuming people magically agree with you. I didn't misunderstand you at all and at least I know who I'm replying to. I wasn't the guy who said you were being misleading, but saying that our packages for Schenn and ROR is the same as the cost to offer sheet an unnamed elite 1C is incorrect.
The Yakupov analogy was an example of how your premise is flawed, not a comparison of value. Your recognition that a 3rd rounder for Yak isn't the same as a 3rd rounder for a 1st overall is the entire point.
No team knows that they are going to be a playoff team for 4 consecutive years n the future. Plenty of teams with an elite C miss the playoffs once or twice in a 4 year window. Acting lilke "you know they will be late 1sts when you offer sheet the guy'" is absurd.
We haven't even touched on the fact that ROR and Schenn combined probably make close to what you would need to pay that 1 center in order to successfully offer sheet him (I'd wager that the savings from that guy would be about $2 mil less than what we pay both combined). How exactly are we plugging that hole? If it is with Backes, Stastny or Lehtera, suddenly we're talking about spending a hell of a lot more than we are on ROR and Schenn. If it's an external option, what hole are we creating on the roster since we can't realistically afford to give up any more prospects?
This is such a load of bull**** lol. You ever play a team sport where you’re the best player on the team by a mile? You know how frustrating that is? Now multiply that by 1,000 and you have what ROR has dealt with. Played on trash team after trash team and his character gets dragged through the mud because he dared ask for a salary representative of his impact on the ice. He’s a great ****ing hockey player and has only once been on a decent team, and that team had a horseshoe up their ass the entire season. The guys on the team are thrilled to have him and he fills a huge hole in our roster and we gave up next to nothing to acquire him. This is one of the better trades in our team’s history and is a huge step toward competing for a Stanley Cup again. Forgive me for not giving a **** that he didn’t fistbump a cocky kid after he scored a goal.
Yep. 30 goals is hard to do. Thompson has a good shot but he has a lot of things to work on before he can even begin thinking of that number.I’ll bet Thompson never gets more than 25 goals, and I don’t think he will ever be more than a third liner. I can’t express how glad it was Thompson that was traded out of all of our top prospects.
Seriously, I didn’t want my hot take to be too spicy, but I honestly think 20ish goals is his ceiling if everything goes right - and I don’t have a lot of confidence in anything other than his one-timer.Yep. 30 goals is hard to do. Thompson has a good shot but he has a lot of things to work on before he can even begin thinking of that number.