Ron Francis

[BraveCanadian]

How were those teams not elite? They each went 16-4 in the playoffs, the Habs won the Cup in 5 games and the Devils in 4. That sounds pretty elite to me.

Look at their depth charts.


The 93 Habs had no business winning a cup.. they just rode the Patrick Roy train to Lord Stanley.. choo choo! Pretty much the most single-handed a cup has ever been won in my opinion.

The 95 Devils didn't have an abundance of talent either. What they did have was meticulous discipline within their system and a strong defense and goaltender. In theory the Wings should have murdered them but in reality the Devils just sat on the Wings like a wet blanket. And ushered in wet blanket hockey for a decade.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

He led his team in scoring 7 times.

The year he was traded to Pittsburgh he was leading the Whalers in scoring 68 games in. Came in second anyway.

Finished 2nd to Jagr 3 times.

Finished 3rd to Jagr & Lemieux twice.

Finished second twice to Jeff O'Neil in Carolina (2 points and then 4 points) though he was obviously the better player.

Finished 3rd (by 1 point) as an 18 year-old rookie who didn't come up until November but scored 68 points in 59 games.

You are correct, calling Ron Francis a complimentary player is vastly underrating him.

I think he meant complimentary player on a Cup-contending team. Of course he was the centerpiece in Hartford and Carolina, but they were generally poor teams. Pittsburgh would fit that description as well in your hypothetical Jagr and Lemieux-removed scenario.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The Devils were 22-18-8 that season. Fifth in their conference.

Canadiens 48-30-6. Fourth in there conference.

Must have been a lot of elite teams those years.

We can debate the semantics over what constitutes a team as elite, but there is no disputing that both those teams were clearly better than any of the beaten finalists that caught lightning in a bottle in May one year, the 2002 Hurricanes being one such team.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Look at their depth charts.


The 93 Habs had no business winning a cup.. they just rode the Patrick Roy train to Lord Stanley.. choo choo! Pretty much the most single-handed a cup has ever been won in my opinion.

The 95 Devils didn't have an abundance of talent either. What they did have was meticulous discipline within their system and a strong defense and goaltender. In theory the Wings should have murdered them but in reality the Devils just sat on the Wings like a wet blanket. And ushered in wet blanket hockey for a decade.

The 1995 Devils were almost exactly the same team that finished 2nd overall in the league during the regular season in 93-94 and gave the eventual champion Rangers all they could handle. They started 94-95 in a slump because Scott Stevens wasn't happy to be there because of his contract dispute.

By the midpoint of 94-95, the Devils turned it around. There's a chance they would have won the division if they had actually played a full season.

In terms of talent, the 95 Devils were significantly better than the 03 team, which was mostly a collection of players past their primes.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think he meant complimentary player on a Cup-contending team. Of course he was the centerpiece in Hartford and Carolina, but they were generally poor teams. Pittsburgh would fit that description as well in your hypothetical Jagr and Lemieux-removed scenario.

Yes, that's what I mean. I just can't see a team ever winning a Cup with Francis as their best player unless they had unheard of depth.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think he meant complimentary player on a Cup-contending team. Of course he was the centerpiece in Hartford and Carolina, but they were generally poor teams. Pittsburgh would fit that description as well in your hypothetical Jagr and Lemieux-removed scenario.

Francis led the league in assists twice in Pittsbugh and once led the playoffs also.

To me that's more than complimentary.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Francis led the league in assists twice in Pittsbugh and once led the playoffs also.

To me that's more than complimentary.

I'm pretty sure "support player" in the context it's being used is meant to refer to a player that is still a top-line/elite player on a Cup winner, not a second liner or thid defenseman type. Brendan Shanahan on the Red Wings, Rob Blake on the Avalanche, Teemu Selanne on the Ducks type of "support player" as examples from some recent champions.

 

[Dark Shadows]

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Answers






Where does this completely wrong and awful idea (on the main board) of Francis being a Top10 forward ever come from? Point total probably?
Could anyone here actually make a case for him being that ranked that high?

No, he has no case to be ranked in the top 40 forwards of all time, much less the top 10

 

[Joe McGrath]

I wish people would have just let Ron Francis just stay underrated. Having to listen to people deride his accomplishments because some moron thinks he's a top 10 forward of all time is just depressing. He's a deserving HHOF member, 2 time Stanley Cup Champion, a class act, and you are lucky if you ever got to watch him play extensively because you got to see someone play hockey the way it was meant to be played.

Maybe I should claim Scott Stevens was a top 5 defenseman of all-time, I might actually enjoy watching people deride his accomplishments.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I wish people would have just let Ron Francis just stay underrated. Having to listen to people deride his accomplishments because some moron thinks he's a top 10 forward of all time is just depressing. He's a deserving HHOF member, 2 time Stanley Cup Champion, a class act, and you are lucky if you ever got to watch him play extensively because you got to see someone play hockey the way it was meant to be played.

I agree. He was one of my favorite players growing up, and it sucks that I have to deride his accomplishments myself just because some kids look at career accumulated points as some measure of a player's historical worth.

Maybe I should claim Scott Stevens was a top 5 defenseman of all-time, I might actually enjoy watching people deride his accomplishments.

Stevens was my favorite player growing up, and it's really interesting to me what his legacy will be. Will his legend grow like Tim Horton (who I think is the most appropriate historical comparison for Stevens)? Or will he start to become underrated, as hockey fans are more and more becoming interested in statistics, and Stevens doesn't have the stats to back up his tremendous impact on the game.

 

[Russian_fanatic]

Stevens was my favorite player growing up, and it's really interesting to me what his legacy will be. Will his legend grow like Tim Horton (who I think is the most appropriate historical comparison for Stevens)? Or will he start to become underrated, as hockey fans are more and more becoming interested in statistics, and Stevens doesn't have the stats to back up his tremendous impact on the game.

Stevens has 908 points in 1635 games, and 118 points in 233 playoff games, and this is considering his last 10 years he turned into a defensive beast scoring around 20 points a game, before that he was easily good for 55-60 points, while I see where your coming from, I hardly believe stats will be the reason why Stevens legacy doesn't grow. If his legacy doesn't grow it will be because of a lack of hardware(No Norris, but he does have a Conn Smythe). I do think though as the years go on Stevens legacy will grow, because everyone loves the guy who can throw a big open ice hit, and Stevens was the best at it. IMO best defenseman to never win the Norris.

Stevens his first 911 games had 672 points which was good for around 60 points a year, only after when he turned into a pure defensive defenseman did his stats go way down. The next 724 games he would only amass 236 points, around 26 points a game.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Stevens has 908 points in 1635 games, and 118 points in 233 playoff games, and this is considering his last 10 years he turned into a defensive beast scoring around 20 points a game, before that he was easily good for 55-60 points, while I see where your coming from, I hardly believe stats will be the reason why Stevens legacy doesn't grow. If his legacy doesn't grow it will be because of a lack of hardware(No Norris, but he does have a Conn Smythe). I do think though as the years go on Stevens legacy will grow, because everyone loves the guy who can throw a big open ice hit, and Stevens was the best at it. IMO best defenseman to never win the Norris.

Stevens his first 911 games had 672 points which was good for around 60 points a year, only after when he turned into a pure defensive defenseman did his stats go way down. The next 724 games he would only amass 236 points, around 26 points a game.

The thing is that Stevens became an even better defenseman once he focused squarely on defense. The purely defensive Scott Stevens absolutely dominated in the playoffs. And that's what I wonder if history will forget.

Honestly, the high scoring Scott Stevens wasn't any better than Rob Blake and was probably worse.

 

[DaveG]

The thing is that Stevens became an even better defenseman once he focused squarely on defense. The purely defensive Scott Stevens absolutely dominated in the playoffs. And that's what I wonder if history will forget.

Honestly, the high scoring Scott Stevens wasn't any better than Rob Blake and was probably worse.

As long as people look at those Devils teams with that Stevens-Niedermayer-Danyeko defensive core that certainly won't be forgotten. Those teams were just flat out physically intimidating and were among the best defensive teams of all time. Brodeur gets a lot of credit but Stevens IMO was the most important player on that team.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As long as people look at those Devils teams with that Stevens-Niedermayer-Danyeko defensive core that certainly won't be forgotten. Those teams were just flat out physically intimidating and were among the best defensive teams of all time. Brodeur gets a lot of credit but Stevens IMO was the most important player on that team.

I think Brodeur was the most important player in the regular season (regularly won Team MVP awards and his puckhandling was the reason the team could trap so effectively). But in the playoffs, I agree, Stevens was their most important player.