Rockets owner hasn’t given up on dream of Houston NHL team (mod: Houston thread)

Stumbledore

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no, the Aeros were an 80/20 partnership.... 20% locally owned, otherwise the team was owned and operated by MSE aka the Wild's corporate entity, SM.... that's why the Iowa Wild exist today as MSE now owns it outright.....

the only thing Chuck Watson got to do was name the franchise, that's why the name Aeros survived through three franchises and three leagues

Okay, so I'm mangling large bits of earlier history. I'll blame it on the meds. Or the radiation. Or maybe just dementia.

I did a bit of snooping around and enjoyed this from NY. It's more than 20 years old now: TEXAS-SIZED FEUD MAY OPEN DOORS FOR SMALLER MARKETS

It's kind of sad/funny how much of their sniping sounds like today's Fugu boards.
 
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Aero 75

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Let's be realistic; the only viable venue that I see that could have hockey in Houston is controlled by a man who thinks he can get an NHL team on a discount or through some Section 8-like voucher just because he owns both the arena and an NBA franchise. As much as I would want there to be an ECHL team in the NRG Arena, that will never happen, since that's only for rodeos, not to mention how the hell would they install an ice plant in that building? And anyone who wants to build a similarly sized arena like Dickies Arena in Fort Worth for those kinds of events, even with Houston's infamous nonexistent zoning legislation, isn't going to come along and build said arena anytime soon as the Toyota Center exists for major venues, and NRG Arena is for whatever random stuff you want to do that involves livestock. That "middle of the road" niche stuff likely is just going to go to Corpus Christi or Beaumont or anywhere else, anyway.
Anyone who still has 'high hopes' that Tilman will bring an NHL team, or any other hockey team, to Houston, needs to have a reality check. As far as NRG Arena goes, it is not currently compatible for hockey, and I don't even know if it could be. Also, 3 proposed 5,000-6,000 seat hockey arenas in the Houston area (Montgomery County north of Houston, Pasadena on the SE corner of Harris County, and League City in northern Galveston County) have all failed to materialize. Houston's hockey drought will continue for many years to come.
 

Pandemonia

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Anyone who still has 'high hopes' that Tilman will bring an NHL team, or any other hockey team, to Houston, needs to have a reality check. As far as NRG Arena goes, it is not currently compatible for hockey, and I don't even know if it could be. Also, 3 proposed 5,000-6,000 seat hockey arenas in the Houston area (Montgomery County north of Houston, Pasadena on the SE corner of Harris County, and League City in northern Galveston County) have all failed to materialize. Houston's hockey drought will continue for many years to come.

3 arenas didnt get off of the drawing board?

Can you point me to any links, docs, or rooms that have more details please ?
 
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Aero 75

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3 arenas didnt get off of the drawing board?

Can you point me to any links, docs, or rooms that have more details please ?
Links? Sure!

The first arena was going to be built in Montgomery County, north of Houston. Per the article from Dec. 2013 "The site plan was released on Nov. 13 and now we are here to bring some clarity to everything,” said Higson, who also revealed the information that the park is currently in negotiations with a baseball team and a hockey team."
Grand Texas expected to change economic landscape of area

The Montgomery County arena failed, but in March 2016, the Houston Chronicle reported that Pasadena, Tx. city officials were in discussions to build a $359M sports and entertainment resort in Pasadena (SE Harris County near Galveston Bay), and that they were in negotiations to bring an AHL team to the arena. Per the Houston Chronicle: "As part of the proposal for the sports arena, Miles said members of the development team are in preliminary discussions with officials from the American Hockey League to bring an ice hockey team to Pasadena."
AHL ice hockey team considering Pasadena for $379M center

Once again, the Pasadena arena failed, leading the same developer trying his luck in League City, Tx. "In late 2018, League City officials expressed excitement for a project that would have added a convention center, a sports arena, an amphitheater and more at the site of the existing Chester L. Davis Sportsplex near I-45."
The murky future of Epicenter League City: Gilley's inbound; remaining development unclear | News Break

Although parts of Epicenter League City have gone forward, several parts of the development have been dropped, including the arena.

To add insult to injury, I'll also mention a 1999 attempt to build an arena in La Marque, Tx. (next to a popular dog racing track) in Galveston County. The arena would have hosted a team in the now defunct Western Professional Hockey League, which had several teams located in Texas.
The Central Hockey League - WPHL Continues Discussions in La Marque
 
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Pandemonia

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Links? Sure!

The first arena was going to be built in Montgomery County, north of Houston. Per the article from Dec. 2013 "The site plan was released on Nov. 13 and now we are here to bring some clarity to everything,” said Higson, who also revealed the information that the park is currently in negotiations with a baseball team and a hockey team."
Grand Texas expected to change economic landscape of area

The Montgomery County arena failed, but in March 2016, the Houston Chronicle reported that Pasadena, Tx. city officials were in discussions to build a $359M sports and entertainment resort in Pasadena (SE Harris County near Galveston Bay), and that they were in negotiations to bring an AHL team to the arena. Per the Houston Chronicle: "As part of the proposal for the sports arena, Miles said members of the development team are in preliminary discussions with officials from the American Hockey League to bring an ice hockey team to Pasadena."
AHL ice hockey team considering Pasadena for $379M center

Once again, the Pasadena arena failed, leading the same developer trying his luck in League City, Tx. "In late 2018, League City officials expressed excitement for a project that would have added a convention center, a sports arena, an amphitheater and more at the site of the existing Chester L. Davis Sportsplex near I-45."
The murky future of Epicenter League City: Gilley's inbound; remaining development unclear | News Break

Although parts of Epicenter League City have gone forward, several parts of the development have been dropped, including the arena.

To add insult to injury, I'll also mention a 1999 attempt to build an arena in La Marque, Tx. (next to a popular dog racing track) in Galveston County. The arena would have hosted a team in the now defunct Western Professional Hockey League, which had several teams located in Texas.
The Central Hockey League - WPHL Continues Discussions in La Marque

This stuff is PERFECT! Totally what I was to hang here for. Links are ideal. Thanks very, very much!
 

sh724

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The NHL franchise value is artificially inflated, and is very much legal. By going just on the assets-liabilities, not every team is worth $650 million at the very least. Instead, the BOG and Bettman have decided to rightfully protect the franchise values by deciding through both the <<Seattle is starting with nothing besides the right to play in the NHL, so my franchise at the very least is worth that>> and <<scarcity principle in action>> so now every team is worth $650 million on the market. Arizona's sale to Meruelo finished for something around that when debt was taken into account. Carolina's sale to Dundas for majority ownership for the team was proportional to the $650 million mark as well.

Houston Rockets were bought at $2.2 billion. It is now valued at $2.5. No new TV deal was signed. The amount of debt has gone down slightly, but something he bought is now worth more despite there not being any significant change in assets besides long-term plans to renovate the Toyota Center and definitely not $300 million worth of liabilities paid off.

There is more to assets on a balance sheet than just the physical assets. Inflating the value of a business is different then inflating the worth. When selling an asset the value and worth are basically the same thing. When selling a business the value can differ substantially from the worth, this can be artificially inflated, but again this is a very different concept than what you were previously discussing. Worth is a BS term, value is not. A valuation of a business typically includes future profits/losses among other things.

There may not have been a new TV contract but there could have been new sponsorships, merchandise contracts, etc. There was recently a change in accounting standards to how real estate leases are treated, these previously were not included on the BS but now are included. This change would most likely include the lease between the Rockets and the arena.
 
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Stumbledore

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There is more to assets on a balance sheet than just the physical assets. Inflating the value of a business is different then inflating the worth. When selling an asset the value and worth are basically the same thing. When selling a business the value can differ substantially from the worth, this can be artificially inflated, but again this is a very different concept than what you were previously discussing. Worth is a BS term, value is not. A valuation of a business typically includes future profits/losses among other things.

There may not have been a new TV contract but there could have been new sponsorships, merchandise contracts, etc. There was recently a change in accounting standards to how real estate leases are treated, these previously were not included on the BS but now are included. This change would most likely include the lease between the Rockets and the arena.

A basic business valuation should include also analysis of the company's management, its future earnings prospects or the market capitalization of its assets, current tax situation, shareholders equity, cash flow and potential discounting, contract schedules and a host of other things. Valuation is never simple nor inexpensive.
 

Centrum Hockey

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Anyone who still has 'high hopes' that Tilman will bring an NHL team, or any other hockey team, to Houston, needs to have a reality check. As far as NRG Arena goes, it is not currently compatible for hockey, and I don't even know if it could be. Also, 3 proposed 5,000-6,000 seat hockey arenas in the Houston area (Montgomery County north of Houston, Pasadena on the SE corner of Harris County, and League City in northern Galveston County) have all failed to materialize. Houston's hockey drought will continue for many years to come.
The Toyota center isn't up to NHL standards either they would need Hockey home and away locker rooms a NHL standard ice plant etc.
Give It Up, Hockey's Not Returning to Houston
But down in the bowels of the arena, in that corridor that led to the locker room shared by the Aeros and the Rocket Power Dancers,
 
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Pandemonia

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The Toyota center isn't up to NHL standards either they would need Hockey home and away locker rooms a NHL standard ice plant etc.
Give It Up, Hockey's Not Returning to Houston

No cred in quoting a report more than 5 years old.

But since you brought it up, the article says Toyota Center was built for hockey, says Houston could support an NHL team, says demand is there.

Toyota could be brought up to NHL standards easy.
 
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Stumbledore

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No cred in quoting a report more than 5 years old.

But since you brought it up, the article says Toyota Center was built for hockey, says Houston could support an NHL team, says demand is there.

Toyota could be brought up to NHL standards easy.

The Bell MTS Center in Winnipeg was modified very quickly to create a home for the Jets. Dressing rooms added, lighting upgraded, renovated press box and TV feed connections, camera platforms, etc. all done in record time. At 15,000+ seats, it never met the NHL minimum standards so they either lowered the standard or ignored it completely. Certainly, the Toyota Centre could be brought up to exceed the NHL's standards quite easily.

From 2018: "Earlier this season Bell MTS Place was recognized as the number one arena – of all 31 NHL markets – in which to experience an NHL game. A buzzing atmosphere, intimate and interactive experience, and clear sightlines were highlighted as contributing to an enhanced fan experience" ... " Bell MTS Place ranked 20th among the top 100 sports and entertainment arenas in North America, also taking the top Canadian spot, in a ranking recently released by Stadium Journey Magazine."

Having said that, I think the arena is far down the list of problems which Houston faces in getting an NHL team.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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No cred in quoting a report more than 5 years old.

But since you brought it up, the article says Toyota Center was built for hockey, says Houston could support an NHL team, says demand is there.

Toyota could be brought up to NHL standards easy.
you also need an NHL franchise, VC, you have to pay that fee, as Vegas and Seattle did, and in Seattle's case that's the 2nd retrofit of the Seattle Center in 4 decades.....

even for an affiliated franchise..... the NHL team is a requirement to exist in this era, whether it's a corporate or not ownership
 
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Stumbledore

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you also need an NHL franchise, VC, you have to pay that fee, as Vegas and Seattle did, and in Seattle's case that's the 2nd retrofit of the Seattle Center in 4 decades.....

even for an affiliated franchise..... the NHL team is a requirement to exist in this era, whether it's a corporate or not ownership

Tillman is too cheap to pay that fee.
 

GindyDraws

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Just when I thought it was safe to get off the Houston thread, insolvency reared its ugly head in others.

Meaning I have to comprehend the possibility of Tillman "I can't wait till they bring out the zucchini" Ferretia lucking his way into a used franchise.
 

TheLegend

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Tillman is too cheap to pay that fee.

Just throw in a free steakhouse chain. ;)


Why does Fertitta get so much shade? Just curious.

When a guy talks about wanting to bring an NHL franchise to his arena and then within nearly the same breath publicly cries how difficult it is to own a team below the Mason/Dixon line. Then later it's discovered he had to get financing from the Rocket's previous owner to buy the team off him. More than just a few red flags jump out there.

Texas sized ego with a Visa gift card in hand.
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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Why does Fertitta get so much shade? Just curious.

He makes a big deal about how he wants a NHL team. He really draws attention to it and himself. But then, he says he doesn't want to pay the market rate for a team and proclaims the absolute falsehood that hockey doesn't work in the South financially. Like Legend said, red flags are flying everywhere based on his acquisition of the Rockets and the operating rights for the arena. He decided to buy a restaurant chain with the roughly the same amount money that could have been used to buy a NHL team.

He was then privately ripped apart in a meeting with Bettman and Daly, much word didn't leak about what was said but everything that did said Fertitta left with his tail between his legs. So, instead of going the Lamar Hunt Jr. route where he tries to slowly build hockey in the market because of his commitment and love for the sport, he shuts his mouth and has barely said a word since, let alone showed an interest in the sport.

He tried to get a NHL team on the cheap, ran into the inevitable brick wall, and then went into hiding rather than do the tough thing and try to build up interest in the game of hockey in Houston from the bottom up. He preferred to spend his money on a restaurant chain than the game of hockey. He deserves shade for trying to weasel his way into the league without paying his dues and then disappears when his visualized path doesn't open up, and the only one still open is too difficult for him.

Hopefully that helps :)
 
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Stumbledore

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When a guy talks about wanting to bring an NHL franchise to his arena and then within nearly the same breath publicly cries how difficult it is to own a team below the Mason/Dixon line. Then later it's discovered he had to get financing from the Rocket's previous owner to buy the team off him. More than just a few red flags jump out there.

Texas sized ego with a Visa gift card in hand.

I had a client once in Austin who had a very low opinion of a local competitor who often over-promised and under-delivered.

With a drawl, he once said: "That man is all hat and no horses."

Apparently that's a common description among Texans and I've loved it ever since.
 

a79krgm

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Houston has had a long history of disappointments in professional hockey dating back to the old CHL. Time and time again a hockey fan base would be cultivated and then the team folds or moves.

If the Dallas Stars win the Stanley Cup this year will it help in bringing pro hockey back in some form?
 

Stumbledore

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Houston has had a long history of disappointments in professional hockey dating back to the old CHL. Time and time again a hockey fan base would be cultivated and then the team folds or moves.

If the Dallas Stars win the Stanley Cup this year will it help in bringing pro hockey back in some form?

Even if they don't win, I've got to believe that Bowness and the boys have raised the profile of hockey in Texas quite a bit.
 

GindyDraws

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Houston has had a long history of disappointments in professional hockey dating back to the old CHL. Time and time again a hockey fan base would be cultivated and then the team folds or moves.

If the Dallas Stars win the Stanley Cup this year will it help in bringing pro hockey back in some form?

Hell no.

Tillman will probably go "See? It'll never work. They just got lucky because they played in a bubble."
 
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GindyDraws

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I doubt adding a team for the sake of Columbus having another rival has much sway over the league. Columbus fans have no natural rivalry with Indianapolis or Indiana in any sport, so that would be met with a shrug from us as well. Indianapolis would be a small market, so it adds next to no value for the tv contract, needs an arena, and would be the smallest market with 3 major league teams, stressing the fanbase's discretionary wealth.


Also, the closest team to them would be in a different conference, let alone a different division. As a matter of fact, of the 5 closest teams to Indy, you would have them be in a division with only one of them.

Indy has essentially no positive things going for it.

On top of ALL OF THAT, the NHL would also be giving up its balanced schedule.

Yeah Indy sure seems like a slam dunk

I don't mean to dig up this old side piece, but who was the moron who thought an NHL team in Indianapolis is a great idea?

I'm from Indianapolis, and I think it's a dumb idea.

Would I support an NHL team in Indy? Absolutely. Would I want an NHL team in Indy? Of course. Do I think it makes sense for an NHL team to move to Indianapolis? Hell to the naw.

From a population standpoint, a corporate standpoint, and an income standpoint, you'd be begging all of Central Indiana to support three professional sports teams in a region where there are dozens of professional sports team around them, not to mention forcing existing fans to consider dropping their decades-long ties in favor of some new kid in town that has no history and will more than likely suck for many years (killing casual support in an area that doesn't like it when the Pacers are mediocre), particularly playing in an arena that has a pretty awful hockey configuration (it's not Barclays Center bad, but it would have the smallest capacity by a mile) that would cripple maximum potential during sellouts. Having two sports teams on the professional ranks is all that we can support as it is.
 
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Anisimovs AK

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I don't mean to dig up this old side piece, but who was the moron who thought an NHL team in Indianapolis is a great idea?

I'm from Indianapolis, and I think it's a dumb idea.

Would I support an NHL team in Indy? Absolutely. Would I want an NHL team in Indy? Of course. Do I think it makes sense for an NHL team to move to Indianapolis? Hell to the naw.

From a population standpoint, a corporate standpoint, and an income standpoint, you'd be begging all of Central Indiana to support three professional sports teams in a region where there are dozens of professional sports team around them, not to mention forcing existing fans to consider dropping their decades-long ties in favor of some new kid in town that has no history and will more than likely suck for many years (killing casual support in an area that doesn't like it when the Pacers are mediocre), particularly playing in an arena that has a pretty awful hockey configuration (it's not Barclays Center bad, but it would have the smallest capacity by a mile) that would cripple maximum potential during sellouts. Having two sports teams on the professional ranks is all that we can support as it is.
There are always a bunch of cities that people throw around with little to no vetting during expansion threads. It is what it is. I think what drew my response was his mentioning of Columbus in relation to Indy. Im born and raised i Columbus but have been to Indy many times for the race, so I felt I could add some needed perspective on the situation
 

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