Rocket Richard Trophy

[ecemleafs]

I was just browsing stats and info on Pavel Bure and noticed he won 2 rockets, despite leading the NHL in goal scoring 3 times. Why did the NHL not retroactively award this trophy to previous goal scoring leaders? Its not like it was a voting based award. It would be easy to award the trophy to whoever had been the top scorer.

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[DJ Man]

I suggested on this board a couple of times that the NHL could celebrate Richard's 100th birthday next year by extending the award retroactively to at least his 1960 retirement, and inviting the living, newly-designated winners to show up and pose with the trophy.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

I dislike the idea. You can’t win something that didn’t exist.

 

[seventieslord]

Does it really matter? The point is leading the NHL in goals, not the award itself.

 

[DJ Man]

It's just an acknowledgement that there should have been a tangible representation honoring the achievement 60 years ago, if not earlier. And better late than never. Let some old-timers take a deserved bow.

 

[kaiser matias]

It's just an acknowledgement that there should have been a tangible representation honoring the achievement 60 years ago, if not earlier. And better late than never. Let some old-timers take a deserved bow.

The Art Ross Trophy didn't exist until 1948, but no one discredits players like Howie Morenz and Charlie Conacher (among others) for not winning it, despite leading the league in scoring. Everyone knows what they did, and that their names aren't on the trophy does not diminish the accomplishment.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Bure has 3 Richard's as far as I'm concerned

 

[Professor What]

Does it really matter? The point is leading the NHL in goals, not the award itself.

Which is why, while I'm not opposed to the award, I think if gets historically overhyped. I've read statements and articles that almost seem to suggest that winning the Richard is a more impressive feat than being a league leader before its inception. Of course, I don't hold those opinions in any sort of high regard, but those who don't know enough history to understand the fault can be swayed, which is very, very bad.

 

[DJ Man]

So, wouldn't posthumous receipt of the award demonstrate that the accomplishment was the same, past or present?
A 40-goal season that led the league in the player's time now has a fresh light shone upon it, and it will no longer be overlooked as easily.

 

[Voight]

I've always been surprised that they didn't have such an award until 20 years ago.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Which is why, while I'm not opposed to the award, I think if gets historically overhyped. I've read statements and articles that almost seem to suggest that winning the Richard is a more impressive feat than being a league leader before its inception. Of course, I don't hold those opinions in any sort of high regard, but those who don't know enough history to understand the fault can be swayed, which is very, very bad.

Why would you be reading such things?

 

[Professor What]

Why would you be reading such things?

Well, sometimes you come across stuff that makes you want to gouge your eyes out. It is the internet. And it was in past tense.

 

[Davenport]

I suggested on this board a couple of times that the NHL could celebrate Richard's 100th birthday next year by extending the award retroactively to at least his 1960 retirement, and inviting the living, newly-designated winners to show up and pose with the trophy.

I would have liked to have seen the NHL do something similar with the Art Ross Trophy. Admit that it was ridiculous to not recognize ties - since goals and assists are both worth one point - and belatedly recognize Andy Bathgate (1961-62), Wayne Gretzky (1979-80) and Eric Lindros (1994-95) as Art Ross Trophy winners. Now, would be a bit too late.

 

[DJ Man]

I would have liked to have seen the NHL do something similar with the Art Ross Trophy. Admit that it was ridiculous to not recognize ties - since goals and assists are both worth one point - and belatedly recognize Andy Bathgate (1961-62), Wayne Gretzky (1979-80) and Eric Lindros (1994-95) as Art Ross Trophy winners. Now, would be a bit too late.

Well, these things can support each other! If Bathgate had one more assist (to go along with his 28 goals) in '61-62, he'd steal the Ross from Bobby Hull, who had a landmark 50 goals. That wouldn't go over well with many fans, but it would help if Hull got a credit on the Richard Trophy for his troubles. (Or seven of 'em for that matter!)

 

[Davenport]

Well, these things can support each other! If Bathgate had one more assist (to go along with his 28 goals) in '61-62, he'd steal the Ross from Bobby Hull, who had a landmark 50 goals. That wouldn't go over well with many fans, but it would help if Hull got a credit on the Richard Trophy for his troubles. (Or seven of 'em for that matter!)

The last game of the 1961-62 season, the Rangers and Hawks played each other. The third period began with Bathgate and Hull tied with 84 points (and the Art Ross Trophy - at that point - about to go to Bobby). Hull's teammates ensured that Andy never touched the puck that entire period - including yanking and knocking his stick out of his hands. That earned the Hawks penalties - and enabled the Rangers to win - but the Art Ross Trophy went to Bobby.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Which is why, while I'm not opposed to the award, I think if gets historically overhyped. I've read statements and articles that almost seem to suggest that winning the Richard is a more impressive feat than being a league leader before its inception. Of course, I don't hold those opinions in any sort of high regard, but those who don't know enough history to understand the fault can be swayed, which is very, very bad.

I think in close races, the existence of an actual trophy may make a subtle difference. Has any team gone full Jamie Benn since 1999? I know there are cases like 1996-97 where some players were openly gunning for it, but I would imagine that behavior is more prevalent with a trophy at stake.

Shots-Per-Game in April (Goal Total on April 1st)
LeClair - 25/6 (49)
Lemieux - 34/6 (47)
Selanne - 12/5 (47)
Jagr - 13/4 (46)
Shanahan - 29/7 (46)
Tkachuk - 21/6 (46)

Can’t say for sure, but... I think Mario Lemieux wanted it.

 

[Professor What]

I think in close races, the existence of an actual trophy may make a subtle difference. Has any team gone full Jamie Benn since 1999? I know there are cases like 1996-97 where some players were openly gunning for it, but I would imagine that behavior is more prevalent with a trophy at stake.

Shots-Per-Game in April (Goal Total on April 1st)
LeClair - 25/6 (49)
Lemieux - 34/6 (47)
Selanne - 12/5 (47)
Jagr - 13/4 (46)
Shanahan - 29/7 (46)
Tkachuk - 21/6 (46)

Can’t say for sure, but... I think Mario Lemieux wanted it.

You may well be right, but I can't say I agree with their thought process, because it's no more an impressive feat just because there's a trophy attached. When it comes down to it, years later, nobody who gets it cares that Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito never "won" the Rocket Richard. When we watched Ovechkin shooting up the list of most times leading the league in goals, we knew who he was chasing. I still think putting too much of an emphasis on the trophy could influence the "uninitiated." I've read and heard people who don't know history talk about Gordie Howe never scoring 50 like it's a knock against him, which is absolutely without context. I just think that putting too much of an emphasis on a piece of hardware or a specific milestone without context is counterproductive, save for simple statistical fun. That's just my two cents though, and that well may be what it's worth.

 

[nabby12]

Peter Bondra has two Rocket Richard Trophies in my books.

 

[sr edler]

I think in close races, the existence of an actual trophy may make a subtle difference. Has any team gone full Jamie Benn since 1999? I know there are cases like 1996-97 where some players were openly gunning for it, but I would imagine that behavior is more prevalent with a trophy at stake.

Shots-Per-Game in April (Goal Total on April 1st)
LeClair - 25/6 (49)
Lemieux - 34/6 (47)
Selanne - 12/5 (47)
Jagr - 13/4 (46)
Shanahan - 29/7 (46)
Tkachuk - 21/6 (46)

Can’t say for sure, but... I think Mario Lemieux wanted it.

Players gun for way less prestigious award-absent accolades than a goal scoring title. Remember around the turn of the century when Kasparaitis took it to the press that he was annoyed with the fact that the Florida Panthers arena staff was too liberal with handing out hits to Robert Svehla. Svehla had a really skewed home/away ratio with his hits. Kasparaitis was annoyed because he wanted to lead the league in hits. In his own words:

"It’s sad. I’m kind of interested about hitting, because I want to be No. 1 somewhere.
And when I see stats at Florida’s games, you know, it’s insane. He can have 12 hits in a game.
I think in the past four games, he had 40 hits. It’s hard for me to compete.
I know he hits, but I don’t think he can outhit all the players on the other team by nine hits.”​

As for pre-Rocket Richard Trophy goal scoring titles, Selänne gunned for the goal scoring title in 1993, and admitted to it at the time. I think he said he was disappointed when Mogilny scored in the last Sabres game to tie him at 76 goals.

At least an award for goals can't be disputed, unless someone wants to drag GPG into the picture or something. But it is what it is. It's always what it is.​

 

[quoipourquoi]

As for pre-Rocket Richard Trophy goal scoring titles, Selänne gunned for the goal scoring title in 1993, and admitted to it at the time. I think he said he was disappointed when Mogilny scored in the last Sabres game to tie him at 76 goals.

Yeah, he took 11 shots that final game (and hit two posts), and I think most were in the third period.

Bondra certainly had that disposition, but I didn’t get the impression that someone like Brett Hull was too invested after the early-1990s. Jagr’s one who went on goal-scoring tears in 1999 and 2001 much more so than 1995, 1996, and 1997 - so he’s someone who I think if there was a trophy would have probably put in a bigger effort.

Was there a cash prize prior to the Rocket Richard? That would probably create greater incentive to younger players or players from before the bigger contracts.

 

[Professor What]

Yeah, he took 11 shots that final game (and hit two posts), and I think most were in the third period.

Bondra certainly had that disposition, but I didn’t get the impression that someone like Brett Hull was too invested after the early-1990s. Jagr’s one who went on goal-scoring tears in 1999 and 2001 much more so than 1995, 1996, and 1997 - so he’s someone who I think if there was a trophy would have probably put in a bigger effort.

Was there a cash prize prior to the Rocket Richard? That would probably create greater incentive to younger players or players from before the bigger contracts.

Speaking more personally on this one, that would have attracted me a lot more, had I been a player. Still doesn't necessarily make it the best strategic move, but we know money talks.

 

[sr edler]

Was there a cash prize prior to the Rocket Richard? That would probably create greater incentive to younger players or players from before the bigger contracts.

Don't know, probably not, but I guess in some cases you had player bonuses if they hit a particular amount of goals for their teams. I think Bure had that for 50 goals in 97–98, which he hit, which upset some fans because the team sucked that year and they probably felt he cared more about the money than the team.

 

[DJ Man]

Players gun for way less prestigious award-absent accolades than a goal scoring title.
...

Lloyd Pettit, the Black Hawks announcer, used to mention when a player attained 30 goals scored "That means bonus money for Joe Smudgewick! Look at him celebrate!" I guess that he would know the details of the contracts or other agreement.

Chicago Black Hawks, 1968-69
Team finished 34-33-9, 6th/last in the East Division.
Pit Martin was 6th with 23 goals, but I'll bet that he wouldn't have stopped at 29.

	Goals
Bobby Hull	58
Stan Mikita	30
Jim Pappin	30
Kenny Wharram	30
Dennis Hull	30

[TBODY] [/TBODY]