Oh and last 3 seasons
Risto -75
Mantha +1
Risto 17 goals
Mantha - 66 goals
lol
There's a reason Buffalo wants to dump this player. He's not very good.
Speculation: Ristolainen's Price is High, Sabres Want a Mantha-Caliber Player in Return
- Thread starter Mister Ed
- Start date
Oh and last 3 seasons
Risto -75
Mantha +1
Risto 17 goals
Mantha - 66 goals
lol
There's a reason Buffalo wants to dump this player. He's not very good.
“I’m going to go shit on another team’s player and then tell them to not disrespect mine”
Here’s the deal. Nobody is truly suggesting what Risto’s value is or isn’t. If you want to get down to the minor details and determine who is worth more, maybe general consensus will say Risto is worth more.... doesn’t mean that we f***ing want him if it means giving up Mantha. He produces like 50% of his offense on the powerplay and logs tons of ice time because Buffalo hasn’t been able to assemble anything that resembles a halfway decent defense in years. Trust me, we know a thing or two about that. Those aren’t endearing qualities to me. He’s a specialist, and a specialist who shouldn’t really be trusted as a top pairing option. It would be one thing if it was Brent Burns who is going to score me 70 points amidst his defensive errors, but it’s not.
We have watched the progression that Mantha has made year over year, and many of us are excited about the potential he still has. You call Mantha a one dimensional winger, but at least his one dimension is useful and accomplishes what we drafted him to do, which is a major concern of Risto’s considering how questionable his defensive game has been historically.
What you just did is like announcing you have a car for sale for $5000 and the people who have the money say “I don’t know how much I want that car, I think I’d rather keep my $5000” and you come kick a door down, berate them and tell them how they should spend their money. It’s disrespectful, it’s never going to end well, and you should probably leave.
evolutionbaby
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Steve Yzerlland
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Risto plays way more minutes than Mantha. And like someone else said look at ROR's +/- after he left Buf....
obey86
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I could play 25 min a game in the NHL and put up a -600. It doesn't mean i'm better.
I think the part that is ultra damning for Risto is that his minus grade is almost 2x as much as the next worst on his team this last year. -41 vs -22. Mantha at -8 had 10 players worse than him, the worst of which was at -20.
Lots of ways people could try to defend Risto, but trying to rationalize his plus minus is not one of them.
Ghost of Ethan Hunt
The Official Ghost of Space Ghosts Monkey
So that means Risto's PP/TOI is way lower than Mantha's, which is another detractor.
Worth noting Burns top output in Minnesota was 46 points as a minus 10 player.
He didn't break 50 points until 2015 at the age of 30. And despite scoring 650 career points, he's only a +15.
He’s not the best example of what or how to get where he is, but wasn’t more illustrating the point of what a top pairing specialist looks like. The move between positions is a weird evolution that nobody’s going to match.
I mentioned it before, Risto is like a bigger, younger Mike Green. He’s like a Ryan Ellis. They are very good players, but they just aren’t top pairing guys by my standards. If I’m trading Mantha or even AA, my return has to be a top pairing defenseman. And I’m aware that means the price is greater than just Mantha or AA, but it’s where I’m at with a potential trade.
We have probably 4 young players who are hopefully not much more than a year away.
Hronek, Cholowski, McIsaac, Seider. Plus some back end or longer term prospects with Lindstrom, Kotkansalo, Kaski, Tuomisto, Johansson. We are finally getting to a point where I like the D prospect depth we have, and I’m not really incentivized in giving up a forward that I see a lot of promise in unless it’s a surefire return.
InjuredChoker
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ROR's goal differential 5on5 was one of the best among sabres 15-18 when he played there. they played better when ROR was on the ice.
risto was about even during the same time period. sabres were as good (= bad) whether he was on the ice or not
ROR + risto had relative goal differential % around 5. so when those two ere on the ice together sabres goal differential was 5% better compared to sabres as a whole.
ROR without risto, +1%.
risto without ROR -3%.
no risto or ROR -0.5%.
both were used as line/pair players so quality of competiton shouldn't be a big issue.
risto was about even during the same time period. sabres were as good (= bad) whether he was on the ice or not
ROR + risto had relative goal differential % around 5. so when those two ere on the ice together sabres goal differential was 5% better compared to sabres as a whole.
ROR without risto, +1%.
risto without ROR -3%.
no risto or ROR -0.5%.
both were used as line/pair players so quality of competiton shouldn't be a big issue.
Snuggs
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Instead of rationalizing why Risto is worth a Mantha like price tag I'm trying to figure out what I would actually give up for him.
Like, Really I'd give them Madison Bowey, (Prospect), and Luke Glendenning for Ristolainen
But I'm not actually looking to move one of my building block players for Risto lol. We don't have enough of those type of guys. Idk how this story has gain so much attention here.
Lets hold out hope for Roman Josi and then we can talk about moving Mantha/AA and more. This direction isn't where we wanna go with Buffalo.
Or literally just sign Jake Gardiner to a deal since it seems no one wants him long-term.
Like, Really I'd give them Madison Bowey, (Prospect), and Luke Glendenning for Ristolainen
But I'm not actually looking to move one of my building block players for Risto lol. We don't have enough of those type of guys. Idk how this story has gain so much attention here.
Lets hold out hope for Roman Josi and then we can talk about moving Mantha/AA and more. This direction isn't where we wanna go with Buffalo.
Or literally just sign Jake Gardiner to a deal since it seems no one wants him long-term.
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I really think part of the problem is the perception that it's not a small leap from a guy like Risto, with some obvious defensive flaws, to a guy like Pietrangelo. We'd all rather have the latter, but we probably won't have that luxury - especially not at the cost of "just" someone like AA or Mantha. We might like those guys, but if a 24 year old Pietrangelo was on the market those guys would be the very beginnings of the offer, not what appears a straight up trade.
Even if we don't deal for Risto, and we probably won't, I think we need to get over this idea of not wanting a guy just because he isn't excellent on both sides of the ice. Some compromises will probably have to be made.
InjuredChoker
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he was also drafted as a forward and had to learn entirely new position on the fly at NHL level.
Snuggs
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Signing Jake Gardiner makes more since then tradeing for this guy and giving up assets...
If they're not dealing for Jacob Trouba. They aren't moving a top notch foward for Risto.. If you wanna target, hope, and dream...
Lets pay attention to Nashville and if they're going to pay Roman Josi.
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That's fine. But when he's used as an example of getting a 70 point defender, I think it's important to note he wasn't until his 30s. That is to say, if you think a 24-year-old capable of logging nearly 25 minutes a game in the NHL who has been a top offensive producer is completely capped out... I don't think he is.
And that's the appeal.
The Zermanator
In Yzerman We Trust
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I'd do AA for Risto but not Mantha. Don't see AA and Yzerman meshing very well in contract negotiations, I think his days in Detroit are numbered. Mantha I'd like to see locked up long term.
We're also unlikely to lock up two 24/25-year-old wingers to long-term extensions that both will want at this stage. So getting value from one will be one of Yzerman's first challenges.
deca guard
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theres no rush . imo 19s waiting for a d prospect or two he likes to become avaliable and add them cheaply with hopes that we can improve on their development . say green gets healthy , or a contender needs a howard , we trade for a 21 year old ahler . thats my prediction whatll happen as theres no need to add right away
Gniwder
Registered User
I agree with most of your comments, but please stop comparing Risto to Mike Green. Mike Green put up 31 goals (mora than Risto's entire career), 73 pts, and was +24 in 2009/2009. 76 pts and +39 the next season, and he did it while paired with an AHL level defenseman named Jeff Schultz. Younger Mike Green had a bomb of a slapper and skated like a forward. He's someone that could make a difference on this team.
We could debate Risto's value all day, but he doesn't come anywhere close to younger Norris Trophy finalist Mike Green who at the time would have fetched far more in a trade.
The last "perfect fit" defender legitimately available to the Wings was Suter in 2012. From then to 2019 should be a pretty clear indication how damn difficult it is to acquire defenders capable of logging big minutes and scoring points. Several of these players have moved in trades and free agency, but for one reason for another, the Wings haven't been close to landing any in that duration.
So here we are, nearly a decade of waiting, still turning our noses up at names like Subban, Karlsson, and Ristolainen while throwing out UDFA Danny DeKeyser into big minutes and praying that the current generation of D prospects is different than Kindl, Smith, and the other dozen names I can't remember.
I'm optimistic on Hronek and Seider, maybe someone else surprises, but it's going to take significant time to develop a blueline from scratch and I hope Yzerman gives them way more help than is currently in the system.
As a final note I haven't mentioned yet, Risto has 3 years remaining on his contract at $5.4 million, which is absolutely perfect. He's not overpaid, it's a shorter deal, and the 3 years is the perfect window to decide if you want to move on from him or create an extension that would end in his early 30s.
I don't think we trade for Risto either, but these are the types of moves the Wings will need to make in the next few years and I think our fanbase, overall, hasn't quite caught up to the idea of giving something of value to get a defender that can move the damn puck. We've been in a Ken Holland trade coma for years. The last time he moved decent assets for a puck moving defender it was Kyle Quincey.
Goalie guy
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Steve Yzerlland
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Mantha goes invisible for months on end. I know his recent performance is logged in everyone mind but he is very inconsistent and can't be trusted to produce consistently. But he is on a contract year so I full expect him to play balls out next year...
Steve Yzerlland
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I said he was a younger Mike Green, as to say he is significantly younger than Mike Green, but plays a similar game. I don’t know if you interpreted it to be a comparison to Mike Green from early in his career, which was absolutely not the comparison I was making.
