Revisiting the Schmidt “Decision”

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Hivemind

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Should they have exposed 2 of Wilson, Burakovsky and Eller then or 1 of Niskanen, Orlov and Carlson? I dont think losing anyone of them would have been better for the Caps. We would have lost a good player no matter what. Im not sure if it was possible to trade picks for Vegas to chose Johansson for example if they had exposed him.

I've posted on this issue repeatedly since last summer, including multiple times in this thread. They should have gone with the 8 skater protection instead of 7F+3D+1G. With the power of hindsight now, I would be happy with the likely Vegas selection of Johansson. But given the information we had over the summer, I stand by my repeatedly proposed statment of protecting 8 players (4F + 4D), trading Johansson to New Jersey BEFORE the expansion draft (NJ was open for business along these lines, given that they made a similar trade for Mirco Mueller) and then let Vegas pick among the exposed players. Like you said, no matter how it's done they lose ONE good player. Exposing multiple good skaters doesn't mean that Vegas can take them all. But I'd much rather lose one of Burakovsky or Wilson or Eller than I'd lose Nate Schmidt. Both with and without the hindsight of this season of play. Even with the great season from Wilson, a complimentary winger is far more expendable than a young, affordable, top 4 LD (the position the Caps have the least depth at both short and long term).
 
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Ridley Simon

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I've posted on this issue repeatedly since last summer, including multiple times in this thread. They should have gone with the 8 skater protection instead of 7F+3D+1G. With the power of hindsight now, I would be happy with the likely Vegas selection of Johansson. But given the information we had over the summer, I stand by my repeatedly proposed statment of protecting 8 players (4F + 4D), trading Johansson to New Jersey BEFORE the expansion draft (NJ was open for business along these lines, given that they made a similar trade for Mirco Mueller) and then let Vegas pick among the exposed players. Like you said, no matter how it's done they lose ONE good player. Exposing multiple good skaters doesn't mean that Vegas can take them all. But I'd much rather lose one of Burakovsky or Wilson or Eller than I'd lose Nate Schmidt. Both with and without the hindsight of this season of play. Even with the great season from Wilson, a complimentary winger is far more expendable than a young, affordable, top 4 LD (the position the Caps have the least depth at both short and long term).

Will be interesting to see if anyone “likes” this post. Without Eller or Wilson, this team isn’t where they are right now, IMO. Schmidt wouldn’t have filled the roles that these guys have had too. No way.

You’ll obv disagree, and that’s fine.
 

RandyHolt

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Schmidt was largely replaced by Kempny. Or DJuice. No big loss. Willy on the other hand forces turnovers by his mere presence, and is a team leader is playoff ESP. The need of Eller aka depth down the center has never been greater.

I cannot be the only one to have consumed some Schmiddies back in the day
f9c6673803dfa2cda51a3a79047eb347.jpg
 
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Hivemind

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Schmidt was largely replaced by Kempny. Or DJuice. No big loss. Willy on the other hand forces turnovers by his mere presence, and is a team leader is playoff ESP. The need of Eller aka depth down the center has never been greater.

I cannot be the only one to have consumed some Schmiddies back in the day
f9c6673803dfa2cda51a3a79047eb347.jpg

Kempny was great for the first 2.5 rounds, but has struggled since part-way through the Tampa series. Hopefully he stops comitting egregious turnovers and ends up with more beautiful assists like the one last night. It's impossible to say what happens with a different player is selected in the draft, but using a deadline acquisition as an excuse why a player was let go is a pretty easy train of thought to poke holes in.


I still drink Schmidt. Beer with fish and bears on the can is obviously the best choice.
 

Hivemind

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Wait. I just realized that Schmidt and Schmidt's aren't the same beer. Holy crap. My world has been turned on its head.


schmidt-beer-can-chicken.jpg


VS.

schmidts05.jpg


Although apparently Schmidt's tried to steal Schmidt('s) wildlife theme at some point (figuring out how to write that possessive was hard)

schmidts03.jpg
 

Ridley Simon

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Wait. I just realized that Schmidt and Schmidt's aren't the same beer. Holy crap. My world has been turned on its head.


schmidt-beer-can-chicken.jpg


VS.

schmidts05.jpg


Although apparently Schmidt's tried to steal Schmidt('s) wildlife theme at some point (figuring out how to write that possessive was hard)

schmidts03.jpg

With this breakthrough — is it safe to say you’ve come to your senses about Wilson v Schmidt and Eller v Schmidt? No Schmidt’s in the house?
 

Kuz

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I still take Schmidt over those players. Nate Schmidt is also in the Stanley Cup final, and playing quite a large role for his team.

Yeah, but I dont think he would have the same breakthrough and be as important as Eller for example. Think about how he have stepped up without Backström and Kuznetsov. He wouldnt have had the same role and gotten as much responsibilty in Washington and right now Kempny have for the most part been great and wont be so expensive long term as Schmidt. Schmidt is obviously better than Kempny, but I think this years team would have been worse with Wilson or Eller out and Schmidt in. Longterm it might not, but if we win this year it doesnt matter.
 

Bieronymus Trotz

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Well, Eller's being given credit for stepping up with players above him on the depth chart out, so Schmidt has to be given credit for hypothetically stepping up with Orlov out in the comparison (and the fears of where the team would be without Eller right now being factored in mean the equivalent should be factored in for the defense). In their normal spots on the depth chart, I'd easily take Schmidt as a top-four defenseman over Eller as 3C. I wouldn't take him over Wilson, but it wouldn't be crazy.
 

AlexBrovechkin8

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I've posted on this issue repeatedly since last summer, including multiple times in this thread. They should have gone with the 8 skater protection instead of 7F+3D+1G. With the power of hindsight now, I would be happy with the likely Vegas selection of Johansson. But given the information we had over the summer, I stand by my repeatedly proposed statment of protecting 8 players (4F + 4D), trading Johansson to New Jersey BEFORE the expansion draft (NJ was open for business along these lines, given that they made a similar trade for Mirco Mueller) and then let Vegas pick among the exposed players. Like you said, no matter how it's done they lose ONE good player. Exposing multiple good skaters doesn't mean that Vegas can take them all. But I'd much rather lose one of Burakovsky or Wilson or Eller than I'd lose Nate Schmidt. Both with and without the hindsight of this season of play. Even with the great season from Wilson, a complimentary winger is far more expendable than a young, affordable, top 4 LD (the position the Caps have the least depth at both short and long term).

That's not how it works. There's no way to know what the asking price would have been on Johansson if he was traded before the ED, and there's no way of knowing if the Devils would pay it. He may not have been (and I imagine he wouldn't have been) available for a 2nd + 3rd before the expansion draft. You also can't say Jersey was open for business along those lines just because they made a similar trade for Mueller. Mueller is a defenseman; the Devils lost a defenseman when they traded for Hall and their blueline was atrocious last season so there was an obvious hole and need there. I would grant you the apples to apples comparison if Mueller was a winger, but he's not, so I think your logic here is a stretch.

It dumbfounds me that you'd rather lose Wilson or Eller over Schmidt. The Caps aren't here without Eller, and likely not without Wilson either. They're here without Schmidt. Burakovsky I'll give you but the other two... not even close. And calling Wilson a complimentary winger? What?
 

Bieronymus Trotz

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The Caps aren't here without Eller ... They're here without Schmidt.
The injuries to Backstrom and Kuznetsov easily might not have happened, and injuries to defensemen might well have. The logic has to be applied consistently...not having a center to step up right now would be a disaster, and so would having one of the three top defensemen go down with no one viable there to replace them.
 

AlexBrovechkin8

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The injuries to Backstrom and Kuznetsov easily might not have happened, and injuries to defensemen might well have. The logic has to be applied consistently...not having a center to step up right now would be a disaster, and so would having one of the three top defensemen go down with no one viable there to replace them.

What? I'm applying the logic to what actually happened this season... not some hypothetical what if scenario.
 

Bieronymus Trotz

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What? I'm applying the logic to what actually happened this season... not some hypothetical what if scenario.
It goes without saying that the injuries to Backstrom and Kuznetsov -- those particular injuries at those times -- wouldn't have happened if the expansion draft had gone differently. Injuries to defensemen were just as possible (and still are).
 

g00n

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It goes without saying that the injuries to Backstrom and Kuznetsov -- those particular injuries at those times -- wouldn't have happened if the expansion draft had gone differently. Injuries to defensemen were just as possible (and still are).

I'm not sure I understand this post but this stuff about injuries that didn't happen is all suspect logic. We may as well say we never should have dangled Gruby at Vegas because there could have been goaltending injuries. Too many hypotheticals that don't prove anything.

What we DO know:

-The price for keeping Schmidt was very high
-Kempny and other have filled in seamlessly for Schmidt
-Eller has had epic performances in key games, including clutch goals
-Burakovsky, same
-Wilson, same
-Grubauer anchored this team for weeks down the stretch
-Mojo had yet another injury prone season
-We are tied 1-1 in the Cup Final with home ice

Losing Schmidt and Mojo has not hurt this team at all, and the guys we would've had to sacrifice to keep or even deal them have played major roles in getting us to historic levels and within 3 wins of the Cup.

I do not regret a thing.
 

Bieronymus Trotz

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I'm not sure I understand this post but this stuff about injuries that didn't happen is all suspect logic. We may as well say we never should have dangled Gruby at Vegas because there could have been goaltending injuries.
Well, yeah, the point is that all the potential injuries -- the ones that did happen in the scenario that actually played out and the ones that just as easily could have -- were equally hypothetical at the time of the decision. So the considerations would be whether it's easier/more sustainable for the team to have to bump up a center or defenseman due to injury, etc.
 

g00n

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Well, yeah, the point is that all the potential injuries -- the ones that did happen in the scenario that actually played out and the ones that just as easily could have -- were equally hypothetical at the time of the decision. So the considerations would be whether it's easier/more sustainable for the team to have to bump up a center or defenseman due to injury, etc.

The injuries are hypothetical but player value and team depth at a position were not. We are deeper in the organization at D than at C (or even F) right now. We may have valued Schmidt more than most around the league, but he was clearly the least valued player of those at risk (arguably other than Mojo, it seems).
 

Ridley Simon

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I'm not sure I understand this post but this stuff about injuries that didn't happen is all suspect logic. We may as well say we never should have dangled Gruby at Vegas because there could have been goaltending injuries. Too many hypotheticals that don't prove anything.

What we DO know:

-The price for keeping Schmidt was very high
-Kempny and other have filled in seamlessly for Schmidt
-Eller has had epic performances in key games, including clutch goals
-Burakovsky, same
-Wilson, same
-Grubauer anchored this team for weeks down the stretch
-Mojo had yet another injury prone season
-We are tied 1-1 in the Cup Final with home ice

Losing Schmidt and Mojo has not hurt this team at all, and the guys we would've had to sacrifice to keep or even deal them have played major roles in getting us to historic levels and within 3 wins of the Cup.

I do not regret a thing.

Schmidt discussion Today:

This may be more about holding on to a conviction, then actually looking at what’s now in front of you. What it looked like in Jan has now proven to be inaccurate. But admitting that an old conviction was “inaccurate” is very hard to do. At least, for some people.

Just my 2 cents
 

McVechkin

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Losing NS sucks. But caps are deeper with young D than they are forwards. You likely lose Wilson if you protect Schmidt.
 
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Hivemind

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That's not how it works. There's no way to know what the asking price would have been on Johansson if he was traded before the ED, and there's no way of knowing if the Devils would pay it. He may not have been (and I imagine he wouldn't have been) available for a 2nd + 3rd before the expansion draft. You also can't say Jersey was open for business along those lines just because they made a similar trade for Mueller. Mueller is a defenseman; the Devils lost a defenseman when they traded for Hall and their blueline was atrocious last season so there was an obvious hole and need there. I would grant you the apples to apples comparison if Mueller was a winger, but he's not, so I think your logic here is a stretch.
You think the Devils really needed Mirco Mueller? If they had that specific a desire for Mueller to fill a hole on their roster, they would have qualified him. Mueller lost a numebrs game in San Jose, and the Devils saw an opportunity to take a chance on him. He wasn't a specific need filler. He ended up only playing 28 games for NJ this season (some missed due to injury, but a lot more due to being a healthy scratch).

It wasn't Mueller OR Johansson for New Jersey, it ende dup being Mueller AND Johansson. The Devils were in an interesting position in that they had roster flexibility beyond the expansion draft rules, and could actually afford to protect extra players. There was actually a lot of speculation on Devils blogs and hockey blogs about what players NJ might target from other teams to help shelter them from the expansion draft.

If you read some of the quotes from Shero after the Johansson trade, you'll see references to him using the expansion draft to improve his team, about monitoring Washington's cap situation in advance, and about still needing to help his defense even after the Mueller trade.
"This is I guess something we've been alluding to most of the year, whether it's expansion opportunities or cap opportunities," Shero said. "And Marcus was a guy, knowing other team's cap situations. With Washington, they loaded up and made a hell of a run this year, but at some point, especially with re-signing (T.J.) Oshie, (Dmitry) Orlov and Kuznetsov, they're one of the teams we watched closely, and something had to give at some point."

[...]

"I'd love to get a defenseman somewhere, but so would everybody," Shero said. "I'd love to strengthen that part of our team, if possible, and adding Marcus to the left side with Taylor (Hall), we have a lot of different options, certainly skill, speed, what we've talked about since I've been hired in terms of the type of team (we want to be)."

How Ray Shero swooped in and brought Marcus Johansson to the Devils


It dumbfounds me that you'd rather lose Wilson or Eller over Schmidt. The Caps aren't here without Eller, and likely not without Wilson either. They're here without Schmidt. Burakovsky I'll give you but the other two... not even close. And calling Wilson a complimentary winger? What?
It dumbfounds me that you cannot see the difference between process-oriented thinking and result-oriented thinking. We're all speaking in hypotheticals here, so using result-oriented thinking about these hypotheticals is rather foolish. Eller absolutely stepped up when Backstrom got hurt, there's no question about that. But there's also no guarantee that Vegas take Eller, especially with Grubauer, Wilson, and Burakovsky dangling out there as younger players that fit the Golden Knight's identity much better than Eller does (especially given that they were already getting a bunch of 3C types in Karlsson, Tuch, and Eakin, albeit with an offensive explosion out of Karlsson this season). There's also no way to forsee that Backstrom would block a shot and break his hand in the playoffs, nor any way to forsee that Orlov wouldn't be hurt in the playoffs (imagine how screwed this team would be if Orlov went down right now).

Further still, have Schmidt around means their left defense depth in the past off-season is substantially better. Which means they aren't painted into a corner regarding Brooks Orpik's $5.5M salary, and may be able to trade him or buy him out. Suddenly they have a lot more cap space to play with to replace whatever winger or 3C or back-up goalie they lose in the expansion draft.

Do you think Wilson could carry a line offensively on his own? He's quite obviously the complimentary winger to Ovechkin and Kuznetsov. I didn't think anyone would take exception to that....
 
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Ajax1995

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Losing NS sucks. But caps are deeper with young D than they are forwards. You likely lose Wilson if you protect Schmidt.

Why? If they went with 8 skaters and protected Schmidt they would have had a choice between protecting Johansson, Wilson, Eller, and Burakovsky so they could have protected him.

They should have had a very strong suspicion they were going to need to shed Johansson’s salary anyway so either trade him beforehand or leave him unprotected.

With Eller scheduled to be a UFA after this season at the time it would have been a risk to leave him unprotected but a calculated one, especially since Burakovsky would have been available also.

IMO the order of most likely to be selected by McPhee between those 3 are Burakovsky, Johansson, Eller. So instead of losing Schmidt they lose Burakovsky. I personally would have preferred that, regardless of Burakovsky’s recent heroics.
 
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