Rethinking Pavel Bure (1999-00): The Idea of the Closer, and a Look at His Value as a Penalty Killer

Blade Paradigm

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Oct 21, 2017
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There has been plenty of discussion about the evolution of Pavel Bure's game in recent years, and excellent work has been done to differentiate between the styles and tendencies of the younger Pavel Bure, the Panther-era Pavel Bure, and the New York Ranger-era Bure. That is not the topic of this discussion, although new evidence has come to fruition that continues to support the idea that Bure was a different player in Vancouver than he was in Florida.

Plenty of work has been done in recent years to document his play earlier in his career.

In Vancouver, he was known more as an end-to-end player with a penchant for taking the puck out of his zone and starting rushes, whereas towards the end of his tenure in Florida he allegedly started to look more for the outlet pass from teammates. It's difficult to say whether he should be criticized for this, as this is exactly how Wayne Gretzky generated so many breakaways -- playing high in the zone and sneaking past center when a teammate looked like he could get to the blue line to avoid a two-line pass. It could all be hearsay started by Bill Lindsay and Trevor Kidd, who infamously slandered Bure publicly. Other teammates disagreed.
Bure artfully etching his place among NHL's all-time elite
by David J Neal - - Miami Herald
March 30, 2001

...

``Right now, he's playing as well as I've seen him play,'' said Panthers defenseman Bret Hedican, who has been Bure's teammate since March 21, 1994, near the end of Bure's last 60-goal season, with the Vancouver Canucks.

``He's doing things defensively; he's scoring goals,'' Hedican said. ``He's finding ways to score when you don't even think there's a chance to score. He just finds a way to slip it through the goalie's legs, up high, down low, five hole. It's not like it's the same shot every time. It's a nightmare for a goalie, I'd think.''

...
I am in the midst of developing a Gretzky shift-by-shift package that highlights his tendencies, so the intricacies of his game are fresh in my mind. By modern standards, Gretzky played the game like a winger.



Ryan Walter commented on Bure in an episode of NHL Power Week in 1993 after Bure had already played 115 NHL games.

0:24:

Mike Emrick (narration): "Since his debut, Bure's posted 135 points in 115 games. But it's his total game that has won all the admiration."

Ryan Walter: "There's Pavelmania, there's no doubt. And he is a tremendous player, a great talent. He is the type of player that is a game breaker, but he's also a backchecker. He's got incredible speed and great hands. But, I think, the thing I've appreciated about Pavel the most is that he's a team guy."



Testimonials about his time as a New York Ranger: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/bures-58-goals-in-99-2000.1475339/page-3#post-69696921

In this discussion, I intend to discuss Pavel Bure in his first full season with the Florida Panthers, his 58-goal, 94-point campaign that resulted in Bure being named a Hart Trophy finalist, finishing in fourth-place for the Lady Byng Trophy, and the clear-cut winner of the Rocket Richard Trophy.

Despite these accolades, Bure's season is sometimes undermined and devalued by some because of one statistic: Bure's nine empty-net goals. This may go hand-in-hand with the common narrative that Bure was quick to leave the defensive zone at this point in his career, and sometimes this season is conflated with the reputation that he developed the following season as a result of disparaging comments by a couple of his Panthers teammates and parroted throughout the hockey world ever since. However, the extra-attacker situation at the end of games is akin to any penalty-killing situation that requires substantial, odd-man pressure to be removed from the defensive zone. Bure's proficiency and skill as a penalty killer is often overlooked, and that same skill would have translated perfectly for the final-minute defensive situations that he was clearly very much involved in.

While at face value, one could claim that 9 EN goals is "inflation" of his goal total, one also has to consider the circumstances of the player being in that situation and the net (overall) effect of his placement on the ice in the final minute of a one-goal game. One should consider his 9 EN goals to be a positive reflection of his play, not a negative. For his team, he achieved exactly what is required of a player in such instances and made himself the key to his team's success in the final minute of a game in which they lead the scoring by a close margin -- the player that any team would want on the ice in the final minute to help secure the victory due to his proficiency in that circumstance.

Let's look at some statistics:

In 1999-00, out of 28 teams, the Florida Panthers only allowed 2 goals against when down 5-on-6, which ranks in the bottom-third of the league (bottom being fewest GA, top being most). That tied them with two other teams for ninth-best at keeping the puck out of the net 5-on-6 (with Ottawa and Montreal). Only eight teams were better. Of the teams that allowed more goals than them in 5-on-6 situations, six teams allowed three goals; six teams allowed four goals; five teams allowed five. If we include 4-on-6 situations where the net is empty but the trailing team has a two-man advantage, the Panthers were the eleventh-best team, as they allowed one 4-on-6 goal for a total of 3 GA with six skaters on the other side. Two teams allowed three goals against specifically in 5-on-6 situations. Seven teams allowed 4 GA when 4-on-6 situations are factored in; 5 teams allowed 5 GA; two teams allowed 6 GA; one team, the Boston Bruins, allowed 7 goals against when the other team had six skaters on the ice. I exclude 3-on-6 situations because (1) the Panthers, as well as 25 other teams allowed none; (2) they are rare and comparing between teams offers little information.

In terms of Goals For 5-on-6, meanwhile, the Florida Panthers ranked second in the NHL with 12. They also scored one goal 4-on-6. That is a total of 13 empty net goals that the Panthers scored while the other team had six skaters on the ice. Sixteen NHL teams scored 6 or fewer goals while the other team had six skaters on the ice, while eight teams scored 7. One team scored 8. One team scored 10. The St. Louis Blues scored 14 empty net goals while down 5-on-6, and 2 while down 4-on-6 for a total of 16 EN goals.

This means that twenty-six other teams had much more difficulty closing games than the Panthers -- the differential between GF and GA with the Panthers of 10 is much higher than any team other than the St. Louis Blues, who closed games by committee (10 St. Louis players scored at least one empty net goal, but only Mike Eastwood scored three). The team with the third-highest empty-net total, for example -- Philadelphia --, had 10 GF 5-on-6, but they allowed 3 goals when down 5-on-6, and 1 goal 4-on-6, for a differential of 6. The team with the fourth most EN goals, Phoenix, scored 8 goals when the other team had six skaters on the ice, but allowed 5 goals: a differential of 3. The worst differential belongs to the Calgary Flames, who only scored 2 empty-net goals that season but allowed five goals against when down 5-on-6 -- a differential of -3. Teams had a much better success rate scoring a goal with their goaltender pulled against every other team except Florida and St. Louis.

The ability for a team to score on an empty net with pressure coming down on them is rather difficult as shown in the following statistic that I call "GF at 4-on-6 and 5-on-6 vs GA at 4-on-6 and 5-on-6" or "extra attacker-empty net differential." I will calculate the differentials for all 28 teams below for the 1999-00 season:

(GF at 4-on-6 and 5-on-6 vs GA at 4-on-6 and 5-on-6)

St. Louis: 15

Florida: 10

San Jose: 7

Anaheim: 6
Philadelphia: 6

Dallas: 5
New Jersey: 5
Tampa Bay: 5
Pittsburgh: 5

Toronto: 3
Phoenix: 3
Washington: 3

Detroit: 2
Montreal: 2
Nashville: 2
New York Rangers: 2
Ottawa: 2

Los Angeles: 1
Vancouver: 1

Carolina: 0
Colorado: 0
Edmonton: 0
Boston: 0

Buffalo: -1
New York Islanders: -1
Chicago: -1

Atlanta: -2

Calgary: -3

Some teams scored several empty net goals, but allowed several goals against with the opposing net empty. Some teams scored very few but allowed very few. The President's Trophy winners, the St. Louis Blues, had the greatest positive differential with good work done by committee; the only reason the Florida Panthers are up at the top instead of down at the bottom is because of Bure's 9 EN insurance goals, and he also did a great job with his team to prevent goals from being scored against them with the opposing net empty. That's an important element as well, which goes hand-in-hand with his penalty-killing skill set. Again, he was the team's most reliable penalty killer, allowing fewer powerplay goals against per 60 than any other significant penalty killer on the 1999-00 Panthers except Ray Whitney (Whitney logged much less shorthanded TOI than Bure). Bure was much more effective than either Rob Neidermayer or Ryan Johnson (as we will see later).

Out of the 13 empty net goals scored by Florida that season, Bure scored 9 of them, one of which was the 4-on-6 EN goal against Pittsburgh. He scored his nine EN goals in nine separate games. Seven of them were the insurance goal that gave the Panthers a two-goal lead. The shorthanded goal was one of the two that gave the Panthers a three-goal lead. Rob Neidermayer, Scott Mellanby, Viktor Kozlov, and Robert Svehla each scored one empty net goal.

In the entire NHL, no player other than Bure scored more than 3 EN goals. Only six other NHL players scored 3 EN goals. 30 players scored 2 EN goals. 94 players scored 1 EN goal. Bure scored three times as many EN goals as any other player.

When one considers that the Panthers allowed a very low 2 goals against in the final minute of a one-goal game and guaranteed themselves a victory with a very high 13 EN goals, one could say that the Panthers were an extremely difficult team to defeat if they had a one-goal lead in the final minute of a game.

One may consider Bure as a closer -- someone who could seal a victory for his team. That season, he was by far the best closer in the NHL.

Bure led the league with 45 even strength goals that season, which also led the league in that category. He led the second-next player by 13 even strength goals -- Jaromir Jagr, the second-place finisher, only scored 32. Paul Kariya, third, scored 28. Even without the 9 EN goals -- technically, they are considered to be even strength goals --, Bure would have scored more even strength goals than any other player in the NHL.

15 times he scored the first goal of the game, which led the league. Everyone knows that leading a game changes a team's approach, and it opens up the opposition as they play a more aggressive game. No other player scored the first goal of the game more than 11 times. In fact, only two players scored 11 -- Steve Yzerman and Jaromir Jagr. Only 16 players in the league scored more than 7 opening goals, a number that Bure doubled. On his own team, he scored 15 of the team's 45 opening goals that season; the next-highest total was four by Jaroslav Spacek; three Panthers players scored three opening goals; five players scored two opening goals that season; seven scored one. Four of Bure's 15 opening goals were GWGs.

Bure had 14 GWGs, which led the league in GWGs. Only six other players scored more than 7 GWG in the entire league.

One might wrongfully declare that some of his GWGs were empty net goals, but in fact zero of his GWGs were empty net goals. There were six games where he scored one empty net goal and the GWG in the same game, but they were all multi-goal games.

Here are the nine game logs documenting his empty-net goals:

1999-10-06: LA vs FLA: Los Angeles Kings - Florida Panthers - October 6th, 1999 (4-2 insurance EN goal)
1999-12-11: FLA @ NSH: Florida Panthers - Nashville Predators - December 11th, 1999 (4-2 insurance EN goal)
1999-12-17: FLA @ BUF: Florida Panthers - Buffalo Sabres - December 17th, 1999 (hat trick: 1-0 PP first goal, 3-1 GWG, 4-2 insurance EN goal)
1999-12-18: FLA @ PIT: Florida Panthers - Pittsburgh Penguins - December 18th, 1999 (two-goal game: 3-0 goal, 5-2 shorthanded EN goal)
2000-01-01: TB vs FLA: Tampa Bay Lightning - Florida Panthers - January 1st, 2000 (four-goal game: 3-1 PP goal, 5-4 goal, 6-5 GWG, 7-5 insurance EN goal)
2000-03-01: TOR vs FLA: Toronto Maple Leafs - Florida Panthers - March 1st, 2000 (two-goal game: 2-0 goal, 3-1 insurance EN goal)
2000-03-18: FLA @ NYR: Florida Panthers - New York Islanders - March 18th, 2000 (hat trick: 2-1 goal, 3-2 GWG, 4-2 insurance EN goal)
2000-03-23: FLA @ BOS: Florida Panthers - Boston Bruins - March 23rd, 2000 (3-1 insurance EN goal)
2000-04-03: NJ vs FLA: New Jersey Devils - Florida Panthers - April 3rd, 2000 (two-goal game: 3-1 PP goal, 5-2 EN goal)

One may assume that all of these plays were breakaways into an empty net, but we can not know that without footage or written documentation. Bure scored empty net goals throughout his career from all over the ice; some examples below:







Furthermore, those multi-goal games, especially his hat tricks and the four-goal game, are evidence that he created the circumstances that required the other team to pull their goaltender; he was not opportunistic. He forced the opposition to pull their goaltender through dominance at even strength throughout the matches. If not for his three goals against Tampa Bay prior to the final minute of that match, for example, the Lightning could have had a better result. He was by far the most important player on the 1999-00 Florida Panthers.

Bure led in the categories of: opening goals, game-winning goals, and goals to seal a victory. He scored 24.18% of the team's goals and contributed to 38.52% of the team's scoring.

The fact that Bure did not have an elite linemate was most certainly a hindrance. In the current NHL, we are already witnessing the effect of duos and the plight of Connor McDavid with his lack of support. Skilled teammates with high hockey IQ make each other better, and Bure was no exception. His feat of individual prowess should be recognized as a demonstration of ability but not of a player in an appropriate circumstance to succeed.

Bure's 1999-00 season should not be disparaged for another reason: even without the EN goals, he still scored more goals than anyone else at even strength and was an elite penalty killer for his team.

If anyone wishes to criticize his ice time, they have to consider that he played an average of 1:58 of TOI shorthanded per game, which obviously inflates his total average TOI by nearly 2 minutes. However, he only scored 2 shorthanded goals that season, so that shorthanded TOI did not factor much into his goal total at all.

At even strength, he played an average of 17:52 of TOI. That is only an average of two seconds more than Joe Sakic, who played 17:50 of even strength ice time per game. Sakic averaged 23:15 of total TOI, whereas Bure averaged 24:23, but that is only because Bure played 1:58 of shorthanded TOI as opposed to Sakic's average of 1:15 of shorthanded TOI per game. Aside from shorthanded time, their ice time per game was practically the same.

Kariya played an average of 24:21 of TOI per game, two seconds less than Bure. Teemu Selanne averaged 48 seconds less of EV TOI and 1:30 less of shorthanded TOI, but averaged 38 seconds more of powerplay TOI than Bure.

Eric Lindros averaged 1:15 less of EV TOI, 1:02 of shorthanded TOI and 5 seconds of powerplay TOI.

Jaromir Jagr averaged 23:12 of total TOI -- he averaged 48 seconds less of EV TOI, but averaged just 0:16 seconds of shorthanded TOI and 5:50 of powerplay TOI. He averaged 1:42 less of shorthanded time, but played an average of 1:18 more of powerplay time.

Bure played more PK time than Sakic and, to a greater extent, Jagr, Lindros, and Selanne. He played less powerplay time than any of them and ranked 15th in the NHL in average powerplay TOI per game for forwards. He and Kariya played similar time on the penalty kill, but Kariya was nowhere near as effective a penalty killer with 19 PP goals against scored against him in 156:06 of total shorthanded TOI; Kariya was highest among forwards on the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim in PP goals against. Bure played 146:19 of shorthanded TOI that season, the third-highest among forwards on the Panthers, and allowed just 9 PP goals against; those nine goals ranked him 5th-highest in powerplay goals against for the Florida Panthers. Rob Neidermayer, by comparison, led the Panthers with 230:41 of TOI but allowed 23 PP GA; Ryan Johnson, the next-highest forward in shorthanded minutes with 159:47 of SH TOI, allowed 15 PP GA. Compared with Bure, Kariya was nowhere near as reliable a penalty killer that season.

With all of that time geared towards the penalty kill, the Florida Panthers were 10th in the NHL in penalty kill % with a PK% of 85.4. He ranked third out of all forwards on the Florida Panthers in total shorthanded TOI with 146:19 that season, only behind Ryan Johnson (159:47) and Rob Neidermayer (230:41). Worth noting is that while on the ice, Rob Neidermayer allowed the most PP Goals Against on the Panthers with 23 PP goals against. Ryan Johnson allowed 15 PP GA, the third-most on the Panthers. Bure was on the ice for just 9 powerplay goals against while on his team's penalty kill, ranked 11th in PP goals against on the 1999-00 Panthers.

Of the forwards, Rob Neidermayer was ranked 1st in PP goals against (5.98 PP GA/60); Ryan Johnson was ranked 2nd in PP goals against (5.63 PP GA/60). Ranked third and fourth were Radek Dvorak (with an abysmal 11 GA in 78:50 of shorthanded TOI) and Viktor Kozlov (11 GA in 140:28 of SH TOI), while Bure was ranked 5th out of the penalty-killing forwards in terms of PP goals against with 9 PP GA in 146:19 (3.69 PP GA/60). Bure and Ray Whitney were the most reliable penalty-killing forwards on the 1999-00 Florida Panthers, but Whitney only played 84:16 of SH TOI. Bure was the team's most effective high-minute penalty-killing forward, and his two shorthanded goals -- the team's only two shorthanded goals that season -- made him not only the team's most reliable penalty-killing forward but their most dangerous shorthanded threat. When Bure was on the penalty kill, the net effect is that opposing teams were afraid to be aggressive and make mistakes. Bure only scored 2 shorthanded goals that season but is tied with Marian Hossa and Derek Sanderson for 11th all-time in shorthanded goals with 34. He was one of the most dangerous shorthanded threats of all time -- combined with a high-end ability to prevent powerplay goals against, this is the basis for an elite penalty killer. Pavel Bure was among the elites as a penalty killer.





Bure was relied on heavily for penalty killing by the Florida Panthers and was very successful for his team. The Panthers were shorthanded 323 times, ranked 14th in the NHL.

He led the Panthers in +/- at even strength with a +25 rating while five of the 18 players who played 41 games or more had minus ratings, including Rob Neidermayer (-5). Ryan Johnson, the aforementioned second-highest minute logger on the PK, had just a +1 rating. The players who were supposed to play the team's biggest role defensively were not the team's best players defensively, Bure aside.

He also had fewer powerplay points (20) than any other player in the Top 10 of NHL scoring that season except Tony Amonte (19) despite the Panthers having the eighth-ranked PP% in the NHL with 58 goals in 338 attempts. This means that other players on the team capitalized on the powerplay and he was less reliant on the PP to score points than his league-leading NHL peers. This attests to his lack of support on the powerplay, as the top scorers for the team aside from Bure were Ray Whitney (22 PP points), Viktor Kozlov (21 PP points), Robert Svehla (defenceman, 21 PP points), and Jaroslav Spacek (defenceman, 16 PP points). There was a significant drop in scoring after that group of five players on the powerplay, as the next several highest-ranked PP scorers for the Panthers were Scott Mellanby (10 PP points), Mark Parrish (9 PP points), Rob Neidermayer (9 PP points), Ray Sheppard (7 PP Points), Mike Wilson (6 PP points), Peter Worrell (5 PP points), and Oleg Kvasha (4 PP points), etc. The team had one powerplay unit, and as a unit it was only had one elite player.

The Anaheim Ducks received 332 powerplay attempts -- six less than the Panthers -- but Kariya and Selanne scored 31 powerplay points each.

Eric Lindros only played 55 games, but 21 of his 59 points were powerplay points.

Jaromir Jagr had 29 powerplay points out of his 96 total points.

Sakic and Bure had similar ice time aside from shorthanded time; Sakic scored more powerplay points than Bure.

Owen Nolan had 18 powerplay goals and 33 powerplay points, by far the most powerplay-reliant player in the NHL.

Bure scored 20 powerplay points out of his 94 total points. He led the league in even strength points, Jagr aside, by a very wide margin -- Jagr scored 67 even strength points; Tony Amonte, ranked third, scored 59. Bure scored 72 with only two seconds more of average EV TOI per game than Joe Sakic and less than a minute more than Kariya, Jagr, and Selanne.

Bure ranked 43rd in the NHL in powerplay points, tied with Martin Rucinsky and Radek Bonk, and was tied with eight others for 11th in powerplay goals. The powerplay comprised a greater percentage of his teammates' scoring than his. Ray Whitney (22), Viktor Kozlov (21), and Robert Svehla (21) all had more PP points than him albeit fewer total points. Bure feasted on teams at even strength.

His scoring was not situational or reliant on the powerplay. More times than anyone else, he put other teams on their heels with the opening goal, scored the game-winning goals more times than anyone else, sealed the games better than anyone else, and was a crucial penalty killer for his team. He did most of his damage at even strength and did not require any situational assistance to be an extremely effective scorer.

No one else had the combination of versatility and game-breaking ability that season.

It is entirely misleading to diminish Bure's effectiveness and impact that season by citing his empty net totals or by saying that his peers were unavailable to play.

Furthermore, if ever the argument surfaces that some of the other top players in the league were injured at the time, it is pivotal to remember that he was not immune from that wave of unfortunate injuries that hampered and shortened several careers. His abilities and his prime were already compromised by the injury below, so his peers were not the only ones to lose out.



Before the 1999-00 season, he had already been required to repair his knee twice (1995-96, 1998-99).

The player who debuted in 1999-00 might have only been a shadow of the player he could have been, yet the value of that season was not only his offensive prowess -- it was proof of his ability to kill penalties and close games for his team, an element of his game that simply gets lost far too often. Bure was the key factor to his team's success in all facets of the game that season. On nights such as when he scored the game-winning goal and the insurance goal, or when he scored multiple goals, his ability to put his team on his back was clearly apparent on the score sheet, but his ability to limit the opponent's chances in his own end are severely understated.

He was a very versatile player who could thrive in any situation and did not need to be sheltered. Whether his team was on the powerplay, playing shorthanded, at even strength, or leading by one goal with two minutes left, he could be a difference maker, and was the greatest difference-maker on teams that simply needed more help than one player could provide.
 
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Merya

Jokerit & Finland; anti-theist
Sep 23, 2008
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Bure is one of the most overrated players. This very often happens with "sexy" players.
 

Blade Paradigm

Registered User
Oct 21, 2017
823
1,172
Bure is one of the most overrated players. This very often happens with "sexy" players.
In the NHL's 100-year history, Bure is the 6th fastest player to reach 100 goals, the 11th fastest to reach 200 goals, the 8th-fastest player to reach 300 goals, and the 7th-fastest player to reach 400 goals. He retired with 437 goals in 702 games, the 6th-fastest in NHL history ever to reach that total.

What's so overrated?

Fastest players to 100 goals and more • r/hockey

Top 20 fastest players to 100 goals

1. Mike Bossy 129 games
2. Teemu Selanne 134 games
T-3 . Wayne Gretzky 145 games
T-3. Maurice Richard 145 games
5. Joe Nieuwendyk 153 games
6. Pavel Bure 154 games
7. Luc Robitaille 160 games

8. Alex Ovechkin 163 games
T-9. Mario Lemieux 165 games
T-9. Dino Ciccarelli 165 games
11. Pat LaFontaine 168 games
12. Richard Martin 174 games
13. Jean Beliveau 180 games
14. Paul Kariya 181 games
15. Brett Hull 183 games
T-16. Dale Hawerchuk 190 games
T-16 Pierre Larouche
18. Glenn Anderson 195 games
19. Peter Stastny 197 games
T-20. Mike Gartner 200 games
T-20. Steve Larmer 200 games
T-20. Dave Taylor 200 games
T-20 Bernie Geoffrion 200 games

Top 20 fastest players to 200 goals

1. Wayne Gretzky 242 games
2. Mike Bossy 259 games
3. Brett Hull 282 games
4. Mario Lemieux 290 games
5. Alex Ovechkin 294 games
6. Jari Kurri 315 games
T-7. Teemu Selanne 323 games
T-7. Pat LaFontaine 323 games
T-7. Richard Martin 323 games
10. Luc Robitaille 324 games
11. Pavel Bure 328 games
12. Maurice Richard 330 games
13. Dale Haertchuk 335 games
14. Glenn Anderson 345 games
15. Rick Vaive 350 games
16. Joe Niewendyk 352 games
17. Paul Kariya 357 games
18. Alex Mogilny 358 games
19. Guy Lafleur 260 games
20. Jean Beliveau 360 games

Alex Ovechkin scores 300th career goal

Fastest players to 300 goals

1. Wayne Gretzky 350 games
2. Mario Lemieux 368 games
3. Brett Hull 377 games
4. Mike Bossy 381 games
5.Jari Kurri 441 games
6. Teemu Selanne 464 games
7. Alex Ovechkin 476 games
8. Pavel Bure 478 games

Ovechkin Becomes Sixth Fastest Player in NHL History to Reach 400 Goals

Fastest players to 400 goals

1. Wayne Gretzky 436 games
2. Mike Bossy 506 games
3. Mario Lemieux 508 games
4. Brett Hull 520 games
5. Jari Kurri 608 games
6. Alex Ovechkin 634 games
7. Pavel Bure 635 games
...
?. Teemu Selanne 700 games


Bure finished his career with 437 goals. He was the sixth-fastest player in NHL history ever to reach that total.

1. Wayne Gretzky 510 games
2. Mario Lemieux 543 games
3. Mike Bossy 550 games
4. Brett Hull 576 games
5. Jari Kurri 669 games
6. Pavel Bure 702 games
7. Alex Ovechkin 711 games
...
?. Maurice Richard 756 games
...
?. Teemu Selanne 804 games
...
?. Gordie Howe 888 games

Look at the select few names ahead of Bure. Kurri and Gretzky accomplished their feats on the same line and on a very talented dynasty squad; Gretzky elevated Kurri, who used speed and intelligence to race into open ice. Mike Bossy played on a Stanley Cup Dynasty squad. Mario Lemieux. Hull's three years with Oates catapulted him to a new level that he could never again achieve without Oates. Alex Ovechkin began his career in the new NHL with levels similar to when Bure began his career, and had more to work with after his first two seasons, hence his lower placement on the 100 goals list.

Bure played two-and-a-half seasons with Greg Adams as his mainstay opposite winger in Vancouver although Dixon Ward filled in during Adams' injury; Anatoli Semenov was his center in his second year; in year three, Murray Craven was his center, while Jimmy Carson, Adams, and Gino Odjick split the year on his other wing -- Odjick played half of the year with Bure.

In Florida, the majority of Bure's primary setups came off of the stick of Viktor Kozlov, who was a lazy underachiever.

See: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/138257947/
Kozlov looms large for Bure
by Damien Cox - - Toronto Star
Monday, February 28, 2000

...

Similarly, it really hasn't mattered much to Bure over the course of his NHL career the identity of the players with which he has been aligned on forward units.

He's never been part of a notable duo - although he apparently got engaged to tennis star Anna Kournikova on the weekend - let alone an established trio. The names and faces have always changed despite the fact he's only played on two teams, Vancouver and Florida.

That has changed to a significant degree this season, for almost without exception Bure has skated with 24-year-old Viktor Kozlov as his centreman. While Bure has sizzled consistently and leads all NHLers with 42 goals, Kozlov has not surprisingly enjoyed a breakthrough season seven years after being the sixth player taken in the '93 NHL entry draft.

As of yesterday he was tied with Doug Weight for third place in league assists with 42, managed another three helpers in his first all-star appearance in Toronto this month and is well on his way to the best season of his young career.

But how much of this is Kozlov, and how much is Bure? Moreover, it seems clear that the Achilles heel of this very good Florida team is the real possibility that Kozlov will struggle in his very first exposure to the Stanley Cup playoffs this spring, which may in turn neutralize Bure.

"I don't know what to expect," said Kozlov grimly yesterday. "I've watched the playoffs on TV. I know every shift is important, every moment is important."

The Panthers have played mediocre hockey since the break, and most recently a lack in production from the Kozlov-Bure combination has been part of the problem.

In the club's last four games, Kozlov has a goal but no assists, while Bure has one goal. Not surprisingly, Florida has lost three of the four.

Kozlov has always been viewed as an enigma, a little too indifferent or lazy for some tastes. His consistent production this season suggests he is maturing as a pro.

"Maybe I'm getting older, getting smarter," he smiled. "I know it's important how I prepare for games because in this league every team in the league can beat every other team. When I played in Russia I played for Dynamo and we just beat everybody, so sometimes you didn't have to play all that hard. Here, if you don't play hard, it doesn't work."

Head coach Terry Murray hasn't been able to find a consistent fit for the left wing spot beside Kozlov and Bure, which also looms as a problem.

Still, it's Kozlov and Bure that will have to fuel any Panther playoff drive. The focus will be on Bure, but the heavy pressure will undoubtedly be on Kozlov.
To have placed himself on the above lists in spite of this, as well as his career-plaguing injuries following 1995-96, is -- as I said in another thread -- to have done so against all odds.

The five fastest players to reach 300 and 400 goals all played in the wide-open 1980s, where defensive systems were only in their infancy. The second half of Bure's career took place in an era of scoring similar to today with the two-line pass rule in effect, as well as obstruction far more egregious than anything in the post-2004 NHL.

Most importantly, we look at linemates: Bure reached all four milestones with sub-par teammates. He relied on his forwards for 65% of the primary assists on his goals, and an average of just 25% from his defencemen, so he would have benefited from better forward linemates. The myth that he only ever scored breakaway goals is obviously false.

Over the past few years, several myths have been put to bed: 1) the idea that he relied more on defence than forwards to score; 2) the reputation of not being responsible in his own end; 3) that the majority of his goals were breakaway goals.

Another pertinent example of a falsehood about Bure is the story that, when Bure scored his 50th goal in 1997-98 against Calgary, it was a late goal in a blowout. The reality is that it was the opening goal, ten minutes into the match.

There is nothing overrated about the player; the problem that has made people so vocal about Bure is that these categorically false myths are undermining the reality of the player's value and ability.
 
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sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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Bure is one of the most overrated players. This very often happens with "sexy" players.

How is a lazy goal-suck cherry picker who just hung around the opposite blue-line waiting for easy outlet passes and scored half of his goals on Jarmo Myllys and the other half on empty nets in any shape or form ”sexy”?
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
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How is a lazy goal-suck cherry picker who just hung around the opposite blue-line waiting for easy outlet passes and scored half of his goals on Jarmo Myllys and the other half on empty nets in any shape or form ”sexy”?

.... ouch..... say what now? :laugh:
 

tony d

Registered User
Jun 23, 2007
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Behind A Tree
Bure was a lot of things, over-rated wasn't 1 of them. Such a solid player for a long time. One of the most exciting players in the 90's.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,895
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.... ouch..... say what now? :laugh:

:rolleyes: There's such a contradictory story around this player, and as a fan of said player I'm kinda annoyed of it myself. He's a lazy goal-suck who made a career out of cherry picking and empty netters, according to some people, but he's also the sexiest player ever, according to the exact same people.... It doesn't any make sense unless we're talking about two different versions of the same player. :confused:
 
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sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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He did re-tool himself though in Florida, because of injuries and "teammate-related"-circumstances, but it's not like he's the only player ever who re-tooled himself. I mean Ovechkin also re-tooled himself and he didn't even do it because of any apparent injuries....
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,215
:rolleyes: There's such a contradictory story around this player, and as a fan of said player I'm kinda annoyed of it myself. He's a lazy goal-suck who made a career out of cherry picking and empty netters, according to some people, but he's also the sexiest player ever, according to the exact same people.... It doesn't any make sense unless we're talking about two different versions of the same player. :confused:

Well, Bi-polarity, seems all the rage in psychiatric circles since at least the late 80's & 90's, who knows ed?..... I watched his career, had Seasons Tickets for a couple of seasons so ya, saw lots of Pavel.... and I can state flat out this guy was no "goal suck". Absolutely absurd to suggest such. Now, did he play the perimeter looking waiting for that perfect outlook pass? Sure. And in doing so drove the oppositions Defenders who were up high to distraction, panic. That guy gets the puck even in front of you facing the Canucks net from the Blue Line.... he's gone.

Good luck with that foot race. And if you managed to get a piece of him or as was more often the puck just before it hit his stick he'd just embarrass you in some new diabolical way & pass it to someone else in full stride heading down to the other end of the rink. This was a player who whenever he touched the puck much like Bobby Hull, Orr, Guy Lafleur, Gretzky & Lemieux absolutely ripped people right out of their seats. I mean seriously. Whats not to like here? My criticism falls on Quinn, Coaching & Mgmnt. Never found the right combination, fully complimentary linemates. He was on another level, league of his own.
 

YEM

Registered User
Mar 7, 2010
5,718
2,697
excellent post
great read-Bure was always a fav to watch
 

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