Salary Cap: Retained Salary Trades

[TankCommander]

Long time reader, first time poster. For all the time I spend on this website I can't believe it took years to finally sign up. Thanks for all the great discussion in the community.

On to my point,

I have read a lot of trade proposals and there seems to be an overwhelming sentiment that it is offensive to retain salary on a trade for a Kessel or Phaneuf. If we are not going to be competitive over the next three years, and newsflash, we're not, than why not retain an extra million or two on a Phaneuf contract in order to bolster the return? If Phaneuf at 5 or 6 million is worth a huge return why not? Do we really need the capspace?

Just wanted to see why there were so many closed minds to the idea of holding on to a couple million, especially if the cap does end up going up. Who cares about the optics?

Burn the boats!

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[LeafsNation75]

I thought there was a rule in the CBA that said teams can only retain a specific number of player salaries if they choose to do that. So I don't think it's easy as saying the Leafs will do that if they trade Phaneuf, Kessel, Lupul and etc.

 

[Diatomic]

If their contracts were 1-3 years long (maybe 4) instead of 7 or 8 I would definitely entertain the idea for retaining, but with that length I just don't know. I'd only retain if I get blown away.

 

[Canada4Gold]

3 reasons, you have to retain for the entire length of the contract. It might not matter the next couple years but these are long contracts, it could matter towards the end of them.

2nd, you can only retain 3 at a time, if we're retaining for that long, then we can only have 2(or 1 if we retain both) for the next 6 or 7 years.

3rd, they're good enough players, Kessel especially, that we can get good value for them in a trade without retention. It's not like they're overpaid, this is what players of their caliber make as a free agent.

 

[Hotel Mario]

Long time reader, first time poster. For all the time I spend on this website I can't believe it took years to finally sign up. Thanks for all the great discussion in the community.

On to my point,

I have read a lot of trade proposals and there seems to be an overwhelming sentiment that it is offensive to retain salary on a trade for a Kessel or Phaneuf. If we are not going to be competitive over the next three years, and newsflash, we're not, than why not retain an extra million or two on a Phaneuf contract in order to bolster the return? If Phaneuf at 5 or 6 million is worth a huge return why not? Do we really need the capspace?

Just wanted to see why there were so many closed minds to the idea of holding on to a couple million, especially if the cap does end up going up. Who cares about the optics?

Burn the boats!

It isn't so much the capspace aspect, only 3 transactions can be made where salary is retained. From the best of my understanding salary must be retained for the length of the contract. Therefore if salary is retained on Kessel and Phaneuf, for the next 6-7 years only one more salary can be retained.

Still, its worth it to get Kessel and Phaneuf off the books, and ultimately out of Toronto. They have trade value now, but who knows how long it will last. But it's almost like a last chance and money would need to be managed very wisely over this time. The dismissal of Dave Nonis would help matters greatly, he's the one that created this cap mess.

 

[Mr Shanahan]

I think that considering the gold mine that MLSE is, Shanahan MUST consider retaining salary in transactions involving Kessel and/or Phaneuf.

The trade talks can go normally, but once as base is set for value coming back, we have to consider if the cap space for the next 6-7 years is worth not squeezing one more prospect or a higher pick from the team we're dealing with.

Let's face it, if neither Kessel OR Phanuef are on the roster in September, it will take at least 3-5 years to just get back to being a playoff bubble team, if not longer, and Im sure we could deal with 2-3$ mill of dead cap for the extra year or two.

The extra return may just be juicy enough to make it happen. Think of it from the other teams' perspectives. What would you give for Dion Phaneuf locked up for another 6 years at 5.5?

 

[Mr Shanahan]

It isn't so much the capspace aspect, only 3 transactions can be made where salary is retained. From the best of my understanding salary must be retained for the length of the contract. Therefore if salary is retained on Kessel and Phaneuf, for the next 6-7 years only one more salary can be retained.

Still, its worth it to get Kessel and Phaneuf off the books, and ultimately out of Toronto. They have trade value now, but who knows how long it will last. But it's almost like a last chance and money would need to be managed very wisely over this time. The dismissal of Dave Nonis would help matters greatly, he's the one that created this cap mess.

A commitment to proper development of players and no rushed, pressured decisions (Clarkson) will most likely not have any need in retaining anyone else's salary for the next 5+ years. It does handcuff us, only if we make more mistakes.

 

[TankCommander]

3 reasons, you have to retain for the entire length of the contract. It might not matter the next couple years but these are long contracts, it could matter towards the end of them.

2nd, you can only retain 3 at a time, if we're retaining for that long, then we can only have 2(or 1 if we retain both) for the next 6 or 7 years.

3rd, they're good enough players, Kessel especially, that we can get good value for them in a trade without retention. It's not like they're overpaid, this is what players of their caliber make as a free agent.

I can understand points one and two for sure. I think the case could be made that Dion isn't as good as what the potential return could be if you traded him at 5 or 5.5

I think that either would garner similar money to what they are making on the FA market, but that doesn't mean that they are worth making your cornerstones. I doubt someone would hand Phaneuf 7 Million and expect him to be their #1 Dman.

It wouldn't be the first time we had a million dollars of dead capspace for 6 years....

 

[Tak7]

You can retain up to 50% of a player's salary, on 3 different contracts.

The Leafs currently are retaining on Carl Gunnarsson's contract until next season - which means they can only retain on 2 deals.

Given the belief the cap will continue to go up, AND that salary is going to be shed during the rebuild, I don't think there's that big of a deal in retaining salary on some of the shorter deals - Bozak and Lupul.

Kessel and Phaneuf are a bit more interesting though.

The big question is this - what's more important? Cap space? Or adding young assets?

If you retain a bit of both of their salaries, does that presumably improve your return? And if it does, does it not make it worth it? I'm leaning towards YES

 

[LeafalCrusader]

We only have 3 retained salary transactions open to us. 1 is already used up next year on Gunnarsson. Unless its an offer too good to refuse we should be looking at taking back a bad contract instead.

 

[613Leafer]

I would absolutely retain salary to maximize trade returns, as well as take back salary dumps.

What would Bozak get if we offered him up with a caphit of 3.2M? All it would cost us is 1M over the next three years, which in the grand scheme of things means virtually nothing to a rebuilding team. A team like Chicago which is very tight against the cap and constantly looking to shore up their #2 C spot could be very interested, and they have a solid farm system from which to make trades too.

What if we offered Lupul up at something like 4M? Retainined 1.25, again he only has three years on his contract. So this isnt something that would be affecting us when we were trying to contend for the Cup.

Phaneuf has 6 years left after this one, which is a but hefty to retain salary on. Id do 500K, maybe up to 1M, but the diffence in trade return would need to be a pretty solid addition.

Kessel's contract is a bit longer, with 7 years remaining, and he should already have solid value. So with him Id be looking to take back a capdump, but not retain salary.

 

[rdawg1234]

first off, kessel is very fair value, he's a top 10 scorer in the league, Kane doesnt really bring much more yet is paid 10.5m so i dont see why you would need to retain salary on an equally skilled player in kessel who makes 2.5m less.

Phaneuf is free agent value and thus shouldnt have to retain value and many insiders have already said most of the trade offers havent asked for retention.

you guys are heavily exagerating with this, phaneuf is arguable, but at most 1m should be retained, he's much better than a 5m d-man, he's a #2-3 on a good team.

 

[Mr Shanahan]

I would absolutely retain salary to maximize trade returns, as well as take back salary dumps.

What would Bozak get if we offered him up with a caphit of 3.2M? All it would cost us is 1M over the next three years, which in the grand scheme of things means virtually nothing to a rebuilding team. A team like Chicago which is very tight against the cap and constantly looking to shore up their #2 C spot could be very interested, and they have a solid farm system from which to make trades too.

What if we offered Lupul up at something like 4M? Retainined 1.25, again he only has three years on his contract. So this isnt something that would be affecting us when we were trying to contend for the Cup.

Phaneuf has 6 years left after this one, which is a but hefty to retain salary on. Id do 500K, maybe up to 1M, but the diffence in trade return would need to be a pretty solid addition.

Kessel's contract is a bit longer, with 7 years remaining, and he should already have solid value. So with him Id be looking to take back a capdump, but not retain salary.

This is the exact train of thought. We should not consider retaining salary as a necessity to get the player moved, but instead, as a deal-sweetener to make a higher return. It is quite simple and I do not see why so many people are completely discrediting it...

With the individual assets this team has, there is the potential for a rebuild like no other, by retaining dollars. (IIRC, Brian Burke was fighting for something like this years ago, and now that it is finally in place, I wish he was still our General Manager)

 

[Faltorvo]

Long time reader, first time poster. For all the time I spend on this website I can't believe it took years to finally sign up. Thanks for all the great discussion in the community.

On to my point,

I have read a lot of trade proposals and there seems to be an overwhelming sentiment that it is offensive to retain salary on a trade for a Kessel or Phaneuf. If we are not going to be competitive over the next three years, and newsflash, we're not, than why not retain an extra million or two on a Phaneuf contract in order to bolster the return? If Phaneuf at 5 or 6 million is worth a huge return why not? Do we really need the capspace?

Just wanted to see why there were so many closed minds to the idea of holding on to a couple million, especially if the cap does end up going up. Who cares about the optics?

Burn the boats!

it's a depth perception issue.

folks would need to see some kind of side by side comparison on how much trade value is there in holding back cap hits.

seeing that it's pretty rare so far, no one really knows what it's market value is.


like does it bump a 2nd, into a 1rst , where is that 1rst projected to slot, yada yada.

 

[Mr Shanahan]

it's a depth perception issue.

folks would need to see some kind of side by side comparison on how much trade value is there in holding back cap hits.

seeing that it's pretty rare so far, no one really knows what it's market value is.


like does it bump a 2nd, into a 1rst , where is that 1rst projected to slot, yada yada.

Nobody will ever know until it is tried, and who better to try it first than us?

 

[Faltorvo]

Nobody will ever know until it is tried, and who better to try it first than us?

i mean to say, that's why fans are freaking out

it's the unknown, therefore it's to be feared.

frankly i have little issue with the concept

but i would like to see the cause and affect it has on a real trade pacage

 

[Faltorvo]

Nobody will ever know until it is tried, and who better to try it first than us?

well

truth is the leafs already have one on the books

but no one can seem to figure how much market value it was worth in the trasaction.