Confirmed with Link: Report: Couture to sign 8-year, $8m AAV contract extension (begins for 2019/20 season)

Pinkfloyd

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Oct 29, 2006
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No, I'm saying they should have traded Vlasic last summer instead of signing him to an extension. They absolutely could have gotten a major haul for him at the time with one year left at a minimal cap hit, even from a team unwilling to extend him. I agree that at this point now that the contract has been signed they should find an upgrade on Braun to at least salvage some value out of it. But a far superior option would have been trading Vlasic for a 1st and a prospect at the 2017 draft rather than committing to a defenseman who contributes nothing offensively for $7 million a year until he's 39 years old.

Exactly...way too reactionary for the situation. There was no way they were going to get a major haul for Vlasic when he had a full NTC and obviously no desire to go anywhere. Also moving him for what would have been a realistic haul would've made this team so much worse than it is. And while you can say what you want about him not being a threat offensively, you can't say he contributes nothing offensively. He's a 30 point d-man. That's a healthy contribution offensively and not something that would be easily replaced even with his declined defensive effectiveness at this stage.
 
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Maladroit

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Exactly...way too reactionary for the situation. There was no way they were going to get a major haul for Vlasic when he had a full NTC and obviously no desire to go anywhere. Also moving him for what would have been a realistic haul would've made this team so much worse than it is. And while you can say what you want about him not being a threat offensively, you can't say he contributes nothing offensively. He's a 30 point d-man. That's a healthy contribution offensively and not something that would be easily replaced even with his declined defensive effectiveness at this stage.

Have you ever watched Marc-Edouard Vlasic play hockey? I don't care how many points he gets, he's worse with the puck on his stick than almost anyone else on the team. The Vlasic-Braun pairing got clobbered last season and while that was mostly on Braun the idea that the Sharks would have been "so much worse" without Vlasic on the roster is ridiculous. Would they have had to change the way they deployed their defense pairings? Sure, but there's no evidence to suggest that would have made them significantly worse given just how badly the Sharks performed with Vlasic on the ice last year.

If the Sharks made it clear to Vlasic that they had no plans to sign him when his contract expired I'm sure he would have considered waiving his NTC, especially to a handpicked destination like Montreal.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Oct 29, 2006
70,227
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Have you ever watched Marc-Edouard Vlasic play hockey? I don't care how many points he gets, he's worse with the puck on his stick than almost anyone else on the team. The Vlasic-Braun pairing got clobbered last season and while that was mostly on Braun the idea that the Sharks would have been "so much worse" without Vlasic on the roster is ridiculous. Would they have had to change the way they deployed their defense pairings? Sure, but there's no evidence to suggest that would have made them significantly worse given just how badly the Sharks performed with Vlasic on the ice last year.

If the Sharks made it clear to Vlasic that they had no plans to sign him when his contract expired I'm sure he would have considered waiving his NTC, especially to a handpicked destination like Montreal.

I have watched Vlasic play hockey more than you have, of that I'm very certain. I absolutely know his shortcomings in the offensive zone. But who exactly would you have to replace Vlasic if he's not on this team anymore? They have nobody to play shutdown minutes. I like Ryan but he's not ready for that. Dillon is not capable. Nobody is available in the free agent market. Nobody is available via trade. Nobody is in the system that is capable of that. Just where are you going to get this magic bean replacement for Vlasic that's going to not be so much worse? You simply have no concept of what the realistic options are for this team if you honestly believe they wouldn't be significantly worse without Vlasic even with his declined state. If Vlasic was told they weren't going to re-sign him then tells us to trade him to Montreal, we're not getting anything of note from them for Vlasic. We're not getting a 1st. We're not getting someone like Mete. Hell, we wouldn't have even gotten Galchenyuk at that point. We'd have gotten something like Beaulieu, Scherbak, and a conditional 1st. Wouldn't have helped this team at all.
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
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Was also wondering why you put guys like Stone in there. He's a good player, but is he really better than Couture?

Absolutely. He’s an excellent defensive player and he put up over a point per game this season on that tire-fire of a Sens team.

I am sad that you forgot Burns on this list.

I didn’t, I just didn’t want to deal with people telling me how bad Burns was so I omitted all Sharks.
 

LA Shark

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Feb 18, 2017
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If the Sharks players were as bad as half this board says they are, we would be perennial basement dwellers.

Let's see...
Burns is such a defensive liability that his offense is overlooked
Vlasic's offense is so bad that he doesn't help this team
Pavs is slow, declining, and just a product of Thornton
Jones could be replaced by some replacement level goalie at half the price
Couture is overrated, steadily declining, now bad at defense
Melker doesnt deserve to play in the ahl
Labanc is soft, just gets knocked off the puck, can't play defense
Kane is just an overpriced volume shooter that cant stay healthy
Tierney is a 4th line scrub
Braun is the downfall of our entire defense, even though we seem to complain about all our other defenders
Demelo...well Demelo just isnt very good lol
 

Kcoyote3

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Since Vlasic joined this team in 2006-2007, the Sharks have been outside the top 11 in goals allowed exactly once, 2014-2015, the year we missed the playoffs.

Vlasic has finished a minus player once in his entire career.

Vlasic is the best defensive defenseman I've ever seen. His positioning and decision making is top notch, and if he wasn't on this team, we miss the playoffs. He's that important to this team. The Sharks are built on his defense.
 

Nolan11

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Mar 5, 2013
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Since Vlasic joined this team in 2006-2007, the Sharks have been outside the top 11 in goals allowed exactly once, 2014-2015, the year we missed the playoffs.

Vlasic has finished a minus player once in his entire career.

Vlasic is the best defensive defenseman I've ever seen. His positioning and decision making is top notch, and if he wasn't on this team, we miss the playoffs. He's that important to this team. The Sharks are built on his defense.
He was the key piece in the reverse sweep. If the Kings did not injure Vlasic, that sweep would not have occurred. He has been the perennial lynch pin of our defense. Arguably more important to this team's success than Burns. (While he has declined some, he is still a top pairing caliber guy for us, just no longer elite).
 

LA Shark

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Dude played against every teams top players last year, started in his own zone most the time, and took 1 minor penalty all year...a delay of game. That's straight up insane. I haven't understood the hate I've seen thrown Vlasic's way this offseason. The biggest problem with that pairing imo is he needs a D partner that can make outlet passes and help skate the puck out of their zone. I think finding him a partner that can do that would go a long way towards making this team more of a contender.
 

Maladroit

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May 9, 2018
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Since Vlasic joined this team in 2006-2007, the Sharks have been outside the top 11 in goals allowed exactly once, 2014-2015, the year we missed the playoffs.

Vlasic has finished a minus player once in his entire career.

Vlasic is the best defensive defenseman I've ever seen. His positioning and decision making is top notch, and if he wasn't on this team, we miss the playoffs. He's that important to this team. The Sharks are built on his defense.

Vlasic was one of the best defensemen in the league from like 2012 lockout to 2016 but it's impossible to ignore the extent to which his pairing has been lit up the last two seasons. I tend to think the vast majority of that is due to Braun falling off a cliff but Vlasic has likely declined a bit too and regardless it's not a good idea to sign a player like that until he's 39, let alone for $7 million a year.
 
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TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
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I would pay $7M/8Y for the most recent 8 seasons of Vlasic’s career without hesitation, but I would absolutely not pay that for the next 8.
 

Lebanezer

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I would pay $7M/8Y for the most recent 8 seasons of Vlasic’s career without hesitation, but I would absolutely not pay that for the next 8.
What we’re seeing is the same kind of garbage that takes place in baseball, and most sports really. Players are being paid for what they’ve done, not what they will do. Most great players start out on bargain contracts, and then they get big money that they aren’t even expected to live up to. What’s frustrating about the pattern is that it’s sentimental, and in business sentiment can be dangerous. Now from where I’m sitting, I have no personal relationship with the Sharks players, so to me they’re assets. The assets that frustrate me, I want gone, and the assets that don’t, I want to keep. That can change on a dime obviously, but if I were the guy who drafted Vlasic and watched him grow, talked to him, re-signed him multiple times, knew him as man etc. I doubt I could look him in the eye and lowball him or sign him to a short term deal when he’s done as much as he’s done for the organization. That human side of all this makes the kind of deal Vlasic got happen to every team. Doug has shown this kind of loyalty and respect to a lot of players recently, because it’s the core he’s built. Is it good from the business side, probably not, and the Sharks may be in trouble soon. But from the human side, it is good, it’s good for the organization and how they treat players, it’s good for Doug’s reputation as a player’s GM etc. Unfortunately this is the reality we’re faced with.
 
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hohosaregood

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I still think most of the troubles with Vlasic generally stems from Braun. It's kinda like Girardi leeching off of McDonagh.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

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I still think most of the troubles with Vlasic generally stems from Braun. It's kinda like Girardi leeching off of McDonagh.

I think it’s a very comparable situation on all fronts. McDonagh and Vlasic were star LHD in their prime who were near or were the NHL’s very best from a strictly defensive standpoint and probably top-20 among all defensemen. Girardi and Braun were very strong RHD who may have been more ideally suited as a #3, but were plenty fine as a top pairing guy next to the star LHD.

Girardi and Braun had a more notable and more rapid decline than their partners, which tanked the pairings as a whole; they both went from some of the NHL’s best defensive pairings to decent 1st pairings at best pretty quickly. However, Vlasic and McDonagh both underwent their own decline as well, and probably fell out of the top-30 of the NHL’s best defensemen.

Vlasic and McDonagh are both still strong, top pairing guys. But they have both declined and their decline tanked their pairing harder than the decline of the other guy.
 

LA Shark

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I think it’s a very comparable situation on all fronts. McDonagh and Vlasic were star LHD in their prime who were near or were the NHL’s very best from a strictly defensive standpoint and probably top-20 among all defensemen. Girardi and Braun were very strong RHD who may have been more ideally suited as a #3, but were plenty fine as a top pairing guy next to the star LHD.

Girardi and Braun had a more notable and more rapid decline than their partners, which tanked the pairings as a whole; they both went from some of the NHL’s best defensive pairings to decent 1st pairings at best pretty quickly. However, Vlasic and McDonagh both underwent their own decline as well, and probably fell out of the top-30 of the NHL’s best defensemen.

Vlasic and McDonagh are both still strong, top pairing guys. But they have both declined and their decline tanked their pairing harder than the decline of the other guy.

I'm having trouble understanding this. In the 2nd paragraph it seems your saying Braun is the bigger reason for the pair struggling. In the 3rd paragraph it seems your saying Vlasic's alleged decline is more at fault...

Imo Vlasic's so called decline is overblown. For me he is still absolutely elite defensively. I really think putting him with a partner that can make outlet passes under pressure and help skate the puck out of their zone would show he is still an elite defenseman.
 

OrrNumber4

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I have defended Vlasic's contract, but I think it is clear he is declining...and he can even be blamed for Braun's decline. Braun takes all the punishment on that pairing; when the puck is dumped down the left side, they switch and Braun will take the hit to clear the puck. Anyone the Sharks put on Vlasic's side is going to quickly wear out because of the increased physicality.

Plus, Vlasic's stamina is already questionable. His passive game is tailored to a long career getting 25+ minutes a night with 30+ minutes in the playoffs. But, Vlasic was clearly suffering from fatigue in 2018 and possibly 2017 as well. That doesn't bode well going forward. Although, maybe the Sharks should start cutting Vlasic's minutes to under 20/night.
 
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TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
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I'm having trouble understanding this. In the 2nd paragraph it seems your saying Braun is the bigger reason for the pair struggling. In the 3rd paragraph it seems your saying Vlasic's alleged decline is more at fault...

Imo Vlasic's so called decline is overblown. For me he is still absolutely elite defensively. I really think putting him with a partner that can make outlet passes under pressure and help skate the puck out of their zone would show he is still an elite defenseman.

The combination of the two declines tanked the pairings as a whole. But the Vlasic and McDonagh decline probably had a bigger effect.

Let me be more clear, since my post was a bit contradictory and poorly worded: Braun and Girardi are what caused that pairing to seriously tank, and have those big time struggles that we’ve seen. But Vlasic and McDonagh’s decline are what led to their pairings from dropping off from one of the very strongest pairings in the NHL, and the decline of Vlasic/McDonagh obviously is/was a much bigger deal as a whole.

Perhaps the decline of Braun and Girardi are what caused both pairings to have some of the awful games and performances that we’ve seen from them. Perhaps the decline of Braun and Girardi are the primary reason that fans will say “man, we lost that game because our top pairing simply could not handle the opposition’s top players, and they made stupid mistakes that led to goals against.” But the decline of Vlasic and McDonagh are the primary reason that fans no longer say “man, we won that game because our top pairing totally neutralized the opposition’s top players, and they totally dominated possession”.

I would much rather have prime Vlasic-today Braun than today Vlasic-prime Braun. And the same goes for McDonagh and Girardi. That’s my point. Even if the decline of the Vlasic and the McDonagh of the pairing is less steep, it’s still more of a big deal. McDonagh is not the same player that he once was. Girardi left NYR and McDonagh was still not the same player, and when McDonagh went to Tampa, when he didn’t play with Girardi, he was still not the same player. He will probably never be that same player again and I’m almost certain that it’s the same thing with Vlasic.

I find it really hard to believe that Vlasic hasn’t declined as well; I think pinning it all on Braun is wishful thinking It’s difficult to use metrics to compare which defenseman has tanked their pairing, defensively, when they played almost all season together and the times they played without one another were in very different situations with very different partners. The team relative metrics for Vlasic away from Braun do look very strong, but the sample size isn’t great and the circumstances are wonky enough to the point where I’m not sold on them. Personally, the biggest reason that I believe Vlasic seriously declined this year is the eye test. I felt like a lot of the critical errors by the Vlasic-Braun pairing were due to major mistakes by Vlasic, and I thought he was clearly a less effective player than he was in 2016 and 2014.

Perhaps I am wrong, and Braun really has tanked that pairing. The advanced metrics certainly do suggest that Vlasic will do better when paired with somebody else. But I just find that very hard to believe after what I just saw from Vlasic all season long. I would be so ecstatic, though, if Vlasic got a new partner and was still at his 2014-2016 level.
 

Juxtaposer

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I have defended Vlasic's contract, but I think it is clear he is declining...and he can even be blamed for Braun's decline. Braun takes all the punishment on that pairing; when the puck is dumped down the left side, they switch and Braun will take the hit to clear the puck. Anyone the Sharks put on Vlasic's side is going to quickly wear out because of the increased physicality.

Plus, Vlasic's stamina is already questionable. His passive game is tailored to a long career getting 25+ minutes a night with 30+ minutes in the playoffs. But, Vlasic was clearly suffering from fatigue in 2018 and possibly 2017 as well. That doesn't bode well going forward. Although, maybe the Sharks should start cutting Vlasic's minutes to under 20/night.

I remember making a thread like five or more years ago here wondering why McLellan didn’t give Vlasic more minutes. I guess we know why now: he can’t handle them.
 

Sharksrule04

Registered User
Jul 23, 2010
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If the Sharks players were as bad as half this board says they are, we would be perennial basement dwellers.

Let's see...
Burns is such a defensive liability that his offense is overlooked
Vlasic's offense is so bad that he doesn't help this team
Pavs is slow, declining, and just a product of Thornton
Jones could be replaced by some replacement level goalie at half the price
Couture is overrated, steadily declining, now bad at defense
Melker doesnt deserve to play in the ahl
Labanc is soft, just gets knocked off the puck, can't play defense
Kane is just an overpriced volume shooter that cant stay healthy
Tierney is a 4th line scrub
Braun is the downfall of our entire defense, even though we seem to complain about all our other defenders
Demelo...well Demelo just isnt very good lol


Everyone wants us to tank and with how crappy all these players are I am surprised we don't have lottery picks each year.
 

Lebanezer

I'unno? Coast Guard?
Jul 24, 2006
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San Jose
Everyone wants us to tank and with how crappy all these players are I am surprised we don't have lottery picks each year.
Every Sharks season is basically reliving the plot to the first Major League. A bunch of scrubs brought together who defy the odds and make the playoffs. They don't win a championship, but they make the playoffs. One player inevitably finds love or reignites an old romance. Then music plays.

 

stator

Registered User
Apr 17, 2012
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San Jose
If the Sharks players were as bad as half this board says they are, we would be perennial basement dwellers.
...
Demelo...well Demelo just isnt very good lol

Very well said, except Demelo is no very good at all. I would think it would be relatively easy to find a better bottom defender, and cheaper too.
 
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Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
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Not really cheaper. 900k is about where you will find.

In DeMelo's case, we're going to get what we pay for so I hope that DW is at least somewhat proactive and moves him back to being the 7D. Throw Heed in a trade somewhere and bring in someone like Faulk and actually have effective blue line depth in the lineup.
 

Mattb124

Registered User
Apr 29, 2011
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Vlasic was one of the best defensemen in the league from like 2012 lockout to 2016 but it's impossible to ignore the extent to which his pairing has been lit up the last two seasons. I tend to think the vast majority of that is due to Braun falling off a cliff but Vlasic has likely declined a bit too and regardless it's not a good idea to sign a player like that until he's 39, let alone for $7 million a year.

When you say lit up, you mean playing against top comp every night and still coming out on the + side?

And when you say he contributes nothing offensively, you mean that in the context of him being 22nd in the NHL for D goals and 44th in D points last season?

Got it....
 

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