Rene Lecavalier Division Semi Finals - Salt Lake Golden Eagles (2) vs Orillia Terriers (3)

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,234
6,472
South Korea
Ignorance about Tikhonov abound.

He built around the strengths of his players. Creativity was encouraged. Players said he was open to innovation.

Some things he demanded: hard work, team play, puck possession, precision passing and positional availability.

I think he needs a great ATD bio. The dang covid19 certainly dampered prospects of it this year. It's on my bucket list.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,599
6,819
Orillia, Ontario
Ignorance about Tikhonov abound.

He built around the strengths of his players. Creativity was encouraged. Players said he was open to innovation.

Some things he demanded: hard work, team play, puck possession, precision passing and positional availability.

I think he needs a great ATD bio. The dang covid19 certainly dampered prospects of it this year. It's on my bucket list.

Feel free to provide some good information...

From what I understand, he used the levers of Soviet power to sew fear among his players. As a result, he was one of the main reasons for the trickle-flow-gush of Soviet defections.
 
Last edited:

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,540
4,921
Yeah, I'm not sure what Tikhonov actually did. The only "innovation" that I have seen him credited with is rigorous training sessions, which he definitely just took from Tarasov.
Nothing groundbreaking, but something I recently posted on HOH:

The fact that Sergei Makarov described him as a "bad guy" but "good coach" (whereas Terry Crisp was the opposite to Makarov) should give us pause. (...) Tikhonov played in the Soviet elite league for 15 years, worked as an assistant coach with Dinamo Moscow under Arkadi Chernyshov and led Dinamo Riga to the elite league as head coach while reportedly introducing four line hockey to the USSR.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,599
6,819
Orillia, Ontario
Nothing groundbreaking, but something I recently posted on HOH:

The whole Soviet system grew and flourished under Tarasov. He built it from nothing into the most dominant hockey program in the world. Tikhonov took over at the height of the program’s power and it began to crumble as he ruthlessly pillaged it until it collapsed under him.

Sure, he won a lot, but in that system, how much does that mean? He essentially just took all the best players from other teams until there wasn’t even a real competition. In North America, it would mean he was able to at least manage the personalities and egos of players, but Tikhonov just used the fear and threats of a system that doesn’t exist in the ATD.
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,540
4,921
Sure, he won a lot, but in that system, how much does that mean?
That's a good question. I'm not sure just how much it exactly means.

He essentially just took all the best players from other teams until there wasn’t even a real competition.
Well, I literally just quoted one of his players calling him a good coach and I named an achievement and innovation from the time before he became CSKA coach.

In North America, it would mean he was able to at least manage the personalities and egos of players, but Tikhonov just used the fear and threats of a system that doesn’t exist in the ATD.
Yeah, that is one of the main points that could or can be brought up against Tikhonov in the ATD.

Sturminator has dedicated a few thoughts to it:

Probably the most notorious autocrat in hockey history, though, beating even Imlach in his monomaniacal focus on one particular vision of how the game should be played.
To be fair, Tikhonov also had the benefit of living and working in a system where he was able to push this to extremes. If you put Imlach in the USSR and Tikhonov in the O6 NHL, perhaps they also switch ranks in the "monomaniacal" ranking.
Tikhonov is the Soviet Punch Imlach, and I mean that. He may have been just as good a coach, and as such is probably quite underrated at #657 in such a big draft. I like him a lot more than Mike Keenan, who went directly before him (all the rage, none of the tactical skill). Give Tikhonov a set of "good soldiers", and he can make a great team out of them. Give him the Balderis/Bathgate/Mahovlich types, and you start to run into problems (I say this without having looked at any rosters).
If those two aren't even discussed among the greatest coaches of all time, they should be. Both ran cohesive, disciplined systems; both were unpleasant, authoritarian scumbags; and both got results.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VanIslander

Namba 17

Registered User
May 9, 2011
1,664
548
The whole Soviet system grew and flourished under Tarasov. He built it from nothing into the most dominant hockey program in the world. Tikhonov took over at the height of the program’s power and it began to crumble as he ruthlessly pillaged it until it collapsed under him.

Sure, he won a lot, but in that system, how much does that mean? He essentially just took all the best players from other teams until there wasn’t even a real competition. In North America, it would mean he was able to at least manage the personalities and egos of players, but Tikhonov just used the fear and threats of a system that doesn’t exist in the ATD.
Please, stop here.
This post contains 5 incorrect or not fully correct statements. I have no time to write about them, but trust me - just stop here, please.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,599
6,819
Orillia, Ontario
Please, stop here.
This post contains 5 incorrect or not fully correct statements. I have no time to write about them, but trust me - just stop here, please.

Trying to compile the statements I even made that could be incorrect...

1. Tarasov built the program.
2. Tikhonov took over at the program’s peak.
3. Tikhonov was at the helm while it crumbled and eventually collapsed.
3. He stole players from other teams.
4. Competition was weak in the Soviet league.
5. He won a lot
6. He used fear and threats

Which is the one that is true?
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,234
6,472
South Korea
Tikhonov vs. Tarasov ain't this series.

It's Tikhonov vs. Trotz.

(With Spezza 3rd line center & Redden top pairing - omfg.no!)

'Nuff said.
 

Namba 17

Registered User
May 9, 2011
1,664
548
Trying to compile the statements I even made that could be incorrect...

1. Tarasov built the program.
2. Tikhonov took over at the program’s peak.
3. Tikhonov was at the helm while it crumbled and eventually collapsed.
3. He stole players from other teams.
4. Competition was weak in the Soviet league.
5. He won a lot
6. He used fear and threats

Which is the one that is true?
1. Closest to the truth, though not completely. Tarasov was not the only one who did it
2. Not true. Completely.
3. That's not the statement in your post
3.(1) Not completely true
4. It depends on time we're talking about
5. True
6. Not completely true. (Well if modern coach tells to his player - you will be traded if you don't start to play adequately - is it "using fear and threats"?)
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,234
6,472
South Korea
I lived in Ontario for three years: two in Windsor and one after that in Toronto.

I went to major junior games where Spezza got two points but STILL was booed off by the home team. Ottawa drafted him but several teams wouldn't have.

He brought his lackadaisical attitude to the NHL. He was less intense than Kessel, though equally skilled.

A bluecollar fan base hates a lollygagging talent. They CHEER for Steve Ott!! If a guy tries hard every shift and sweats to maximize their potential, then a fan base gets behind them.

Frustratingly, TSN nightly highlight videos show a minute of brilliance over ten minutes of dogged turd play.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,599
6,819
Orillia, Ontario
Tikhonov vs. Tarasov ain't this series.

It's Tikhonov vs. Trotz.

Yes, and Trotz has a good advantage over Tikhonov.
- 2 Jack Adams Awards (2016, 2019)
- voted by the players to be the best coach (2014)
- 10 times top-5 in Jack Adams voting
- Stanley Cup, Calder Cup

Barry Trotz's coaching helped built the Nashville Predators from an expansion team into one of the best organizations in the NHL. He brings discipline, but does it while still being liked and respected by his players.

(With Spezza 3rd line center & Redden top pairing - omfg.no!)

'Nuff said.

Spezza is quite fine as an offensive 3rd line center. Certainly no worse than Rick MacLeish.

Redden is my #4 defenseman. I chose to balance my pairs, playing #1 with #4 and #2 with #3. It's no secret, though, my top pair is probably my team's most significant weakness.

[MOD: no disclosure of PMs in the public.]

I am a life-long Maple Leafs fan. I grew up hating Spezza and Redden.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,599
6,819
Orillia, Ontario
I lived in Ontario for three years: two in Windsor and one after that in Toronto.

I went to major junior games where Spezza got two points but STILL was booed off by the home team. Ottawa drafted him but several teams wouldn't have.

He brought his lackadaisical attitude to the NHL. He was less intense than Kessel, though equally skilled.

A bluecollar fan base hates a lollygagging talent. They CHEER for Steve Ott!! If a guy tries hard every shift and sweats to maximize their potential, then a fan base gets behind them.

Frustratingly, TSN nightly highlight videos show a minute of brilliance over ten minutes of dogged turd play.

That's why both Jonathan Toews and Dave Keon are ahead of him in my line-up....
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,599
6,819
Orillia, Ontario
As I mentioned earlier, I wanted to make an ES benchmark for each season, which would make it easier to tally up these scores, and I finally got that done. Once I changed from the straight vs.2 to a vs.X, just about everyone was bumped up a little.... Howe, Oates, and Tonelli seemed to have been most punished under the previous numbers I used.

Dean Prentice - Jonathan Toews - Gordie Howe (76.6+78.9+121.6=277.1)
Anatoli Firsov - Dave Keon - Bernie Morris (*90.0+73.0+*85.9=248.9)
Jack Marshall - Jason Spezza - Vladimir Tarasenko (*67.6+78.4+68.6=214.6)

John Tonelli - Adam Oates - Bernie Geoffrion (67.0+88.7+83.6=239.3)
Patrick Marleau - Mats Sundin - Jarome Iginla (69.7+85.4+91.9=247.0)
Jack Adams - Rick MacLeish - Ken Hodge (*74.3+68.7+78.7=221.7)

Second and third lines are pretty close. First line still has a significant gap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheDevilMadeMe

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,599
6,819
Orillia, Ontario
Well, with voting coming up, I guess I'll break down my views..

Orillia Major Advantages
  1. First Line: This unit is an even strength monster. Not only are they by far the best offensive line in this series, but they ooze intangibles. All three players are good or very good defensively. All three players are big, strong, and good in puck pursuit.
  2. PK Forwards: Might be the first ATD team ever to have all 4 of the first drafted forwards lined up as primary penalty killers. These four are seriously dangerous on the counter-attack.
Orillia Minor Advantages
  1. Johnny Bower is better than Gump Worsley.
  2. Barry Trotz is better than Viktor Tikhonov.
  3. Face-offs. Toews and Keon are among the elite, and Spezza and Krejci are both good. We should start with the puck more often than not.

Salt Lake Major Advantages

  1. First Defense Pair is much better, mostly due to Red Kelly being the best defenseman in this series by far.
  2. PK Defensemen: This is a really strong group of defenders.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,599
6,819
Orillia, Ontario
Surviving R Kelly:

Well, I think I should lay out how Orillia can mitigate the effect of Red Kelly here. He is Salt Lake’s best player, and easily their best offensive weapon. Slowing him down will be key.

Much like other offensive defensemen, the best way to limit their offensive impact is to keep them in the defensive end as much as possible. Salt Lake seems to want to want to match him against Gordie Howe’s line, which is perfect, since that’s what I want too. That line is the perfect line to forecheck and cycle the other team to death. Toews’ faceoff ability also ensures we get the puck to star more often than not. Barry Trotz’s aggressive forechecking and cycling system is a good fit here as well.

Second, it’s important that when Kelly does get the puck - and he in will - we pressure him immediately and aggressively. The faster we can get the puck off his stick, the better! Again, I think we have a good team for that. I’ve gone on about the first line, but the duo of Keon and Firsov is also really aggressive forechecking, though smaller and less imposing. They are both fast, quick, and instinctual - cutting off angles and pushing you where you don’t want to go. Jack Marshall, David Krejci, and Bobby Schmautz are also good forecheckers.

Matchups should be dictated by Trotz, even on the road. Tikhonov wasn’t a line matched, preferring to just roll his lines. As long as I can keep the Spezza-Tarasenko duo away from Kelly, I will have the bodies to execute the game plan.

Finally, the PP, where Kelly will play the point. He’s their primary puck carrier and puck distributor on that top unit. With the duo of Keon and Firsov, I think we effectively harass Kelly in open ice, and quickly angle him off in the offensive zone. Again, the plan is to get the puck off his stick. The Toews and Howe duo can do the same. My third set of PKers, Jack Marshall and Dean Prenrice, whole limited in their time killing penalties, can also execute that and plan.

Obviously, completely shutting down Red Kelly is impossible, but he can be slowed down. I feel Orillia has the plan in place and the personnel to execute that plan.
 
Last edited:

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,234
6,472
South Korea
5 of the last 6 posts have been from Dreak.

I have "lol" inbetween because I hope you see thru the fog.

The absurdity of an all-time great Redden top pairing (gawd even 2nd pairing) and Spezza as a bottom-6, 3rd line pivot?
 
Last edited:

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,599
6,819
Orillia, Ontario
The absurdity of an all-time great Redden top pairing (gawd even 2nd pairing) and Spezza as a bottom-6, 3rd line pivot?

Redden is my #4 defenseman. Compare him to Leo Reise Jr, who is the opposing #4. Higher peak vs. longer peak. Stay-at-home defender with low-end puck skills vs. a more well-rounded guy. I'm not sure I don't take Redden ahead of Reise in a vacuum.

Spezza is here to play a certain role. Sure, he's listed 3rd in line, but that doesn't mean I expect him to excel as checker. For those of us who are paying attention to the NHL these days, we're learning a lot about how successful teams are built and how they play. The old myopic view of cookie-cutter team building is dead.
 
Last edited:

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,234
6,472
South Korea
NHL GMs Dan Quinn and Kevin Lowe have said equivocally: If you don't play well without the puck you better make the top 6 (or get sent down).
 

Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
May 13, 2003
30,658
8,733
Ontario
Redden is my #4 defenseman. Compare him to Leo Reise Jr, who is the opposing #4. Higher peak vs. longer peak. Stay-at-home defender with low-end puck skills vs. a more well-rounded guy. I'm not sure I don't take Redden ahead of Reise in a vacuum.

Been busy, so trying to catch up quickly.

Wade Redden is your #4...yet you are playing him (likely 20+ minutes per night) on your top pairing. In any ATD that is terrible, even at 40 teams. And yes, I know you wanted to “balance” your pairings. It still doesn’t make them good. You talk about the Oates line being exposed, I still think the chances of your D being exposed are much higher.

Is that why you didn’t include a minutes chart? In the hopes voters wouldn’t notice how overused and exposed Redden will be? ;)

You can call him your #4 all you want, but the fact of the matter is Wade Redden isn’t a top pairing defensemen even in a 50 team ATD and yet you have him on your top pairing even if you claim he is your number 4, to make him sound less out of place. Not one that wants to win it all anyways.
 
Last edited:

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->