Rene Lecavalier Division Finals - Saskatoon Snipers (1) vs Orillia Terriers (3)

[Theokritos]

Defensive Ability:
Elite - Dave Keon, Jonathan Toews

Very Good - Baldy Northcott, Anatoli Firsov

Good - Gordie Howe, Dean Prentice, Konstantine Loktev

Better than Average - Cyclone Taylor, Valeri Kharlamov

Non-Factor - Bernie Morris, Ziggy Palffy

Bad - Vladimir Petrov

Switch Loktev and Firsov.

Petrov bad? If you're only looking at the first 1/3 of his career with CSKA and the national team, then yes. If you're looking at the other 2/3, then he was very good.

Also, I don't think Pálffy is a non-factor. Wasn't he at least better than average, perhaps even good?

Gordie Howe probably deserves to move up too.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Switch Loktev and Firsov.

Petrov bad? If you're only looking at the first 1/3 of his career with CSKA and the national team, then yes. If you're looking at the other 2/3, then he was very good.

Also, I don't think Pálffy is a non-factor. Wasn't he at least better than average, perhaps even good?

Gordie Howe probably deserves to move up too.

Palffy was a total nonfactor defensively for the Islanders; seemed to be pretty good for the Kings

 

[Dreakmur]

There's no way that you're going to convince me that Prentice and Toews are better offensive players than Northcott/Palffy. Just isn't a reality. I watched Palffy play. His offensive acuity is far above either Prentice or Toews.

Palffy, I can understand. He had really good offensive totals, and he did that playing without much help for a lot of his career. Northcott, I don't get. He's not a particularly good offensive player.

The numbers are what they are though.

If you're just going to throw the elite tab across the board on Toews then I can just start inflating my players arbitrarily. First off, Toews isn't elite defensively, not in the ATD. Bergeron is elite defensively. Datsyuk. Toews has 1 Selke and a handful of other finalist nods. Where's he been the last few years now that Chicago turned into a dumpster fire? (in part because they paid a player like Toews 10 million). Not anywhere in the running for Selke.

The Selke goes to good defensive players on good teams. That's why he had an elite run of Selke consideration when his team was good.

Back to Palffy:

One, he didn't get to play on a near dynasty like Toews. That impacts offensive statistics. Palffy played on a lot of very crappy teams and still was miles better an offensive threat than a Toews. I'm sorry if that's blunt, but it really is the hard truth.

There are pros and cons to playing anywhere. Palffy had less support, but he also got to play like 5 minutes per game on the PP.

Two, he played his career through one of the lowest scoring periods in hockey history and routinely put up 80+ point seasons. Didn't matter he was playing on largely garbage teams. Palffy is a perfect example of VsX being a nice generality but treating it as gospel leads you to generality.

I don't understand why that means the system shouldn't apply to him.

Not sure what you're talking about Petrov and Taylor checking Toews and Keon.

I don't get it either, but you said they were doing it, right? Unless I misread something.

Saskatoon's top line is simply more balanced. We don't have all of the offensive eggs in one basket so to speak.

Toews - 78.9
Prentice - 76.6

Palffy - 72.9
Northcott - 67.9

I know you don't like the numbers, but

 

[ImporterExporter]

Switch Loktev and Firsov.

Petrov bad? If you're only looking at the first 1/3 of his career with CSKA and the national team, then yes. If you're looking at the other 2/3, then he was very good.

Also, I don't think Pálffy is a non-factor. Wasn't he at least better than average, perhaps even good?

Gordie Howe probably deserves to move up too.

Which is precisely why I don't mind Petrov going head to head with with defensive C's if need be. As you correctly point out, Petrov developed into a quite strong defensive player, post 1972 (the fact he realized he had to improve in this area after the Summit series kind of pushes back against the narrative that Petrov was a selfish player). These generalizations do need to be reigned in some IMO.

Petrov's offense is elite for a 2nd line role, he's playing with his real life LW and has a very strong all around type RW who both of Kharlamov and Petrov would have known personally, even if they didn't play together (correct me if I wrong on the last part) as I think Loktev's career was wrapping up about the time the other 2 came into the fold.

Kharlamov was at least a responsible defensive player, at times maybe a bit better than that from everything I've read on him over the years. Loktev is well above average.

I personally think the Sniper's 2nd line is in a prime position to go head to head with Firsov Keon and Morris if that's what Orillia wants or Tarasov orders. I think Kharlamov and Firsov are probably about equal offensively. Petrov is vastly better offensively than Keon and Morris is a pretty big upgrade over Loktev. All things considered I think the 2nd lines are quite close but the Snipers have the advantage of knowing there is real life chemistry to bank on and all those players are skating for the coach who oversaw their careers from start to finish as far as i know.

 

[Dreakmur]

I personally think the Sniper's 2nd line is in a prime position to go head to head with Firsov Keon and Morris if that's what Orillia wants or Tarasov orders.

I'm fine with that match-up, but I would pursue a Keon vs. Taylor match-up. I think he's better suited to playing in that head to head match-up.

I think Kharlamov and Firsov are probably about equal offensively.

Agreed.

Petrov is vastly better offensively than Keon and Morris is a pretty big upgrade over Loktev.

Combined, these two pairs are pretty similar offensively. Petrov a little better than Morris, and Keon a little better than Loktev.

All things considered I think the 2nd lines are quite close but the Snipers have the advantage of knowing there is real life chemistry to bank on and all those players are skating for the coach who oversaw their careers from start to finish as far as i know.

Offensively, sure they're pretty similar. Dave Keon's checking ability is something that Saskatoon's line cannot match.

 

[rmartin65]

The even strength scoring is easy to demonstrate - the numbers are what they are. The other stuff is not really something that can be explained... and I may not even be right.

I think he's elite defensively. I think he's elite as a forechecker and backchecker. I think he's elite in the dirty area battles. I think he's elite on face-offs. I think he's elite as a leader. How do I convince somebody who doesn't watch him any of that?

Where did you get that I don't watch Toews? I clearly state that I do, but that I don't focus on him. As in, I don't seek out Chicago games. I see him play regularly, I just don't seek him out.

In fact, the fact that I have watched him play is why I feel comfortable disagreeing with the "experts". I see a good all-around player, who- at his peak (2011-2016, to use your earlier numbers) was maybe a top 5, but more likely a top 10 center in the league. That's no scrub, but it is no Sid Abel.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'm fine with that match-up, but I would pursue a Keon vs. Taylor match-up. I think he's better suited to playing in that head to head match-up.



Agreed.



Combined, these two pairs are pretty similar offensively. Petrov a little better than Morris, and Keon a little better than Loktev.



Offensively, sure they're pretty similar. Dave Keon's checking ability is something that Saskatoon's line cannot match.

Oh there is no doubt Toews/Keon is excellent defensively. I'm not going to argue otherwise or that they wouldn't impact Taylor/Petrov's offensive production. I'm making that same argument with my 3rd line of Pittsburgh and won't try and talk out of both sides of my mouth.

Do I think Toews is elite though at an ATD level? No. I reserve that distinction for the Nighbor's, Clarke's and Datsyuk's of the world (2 way). Bergeron is sort of a tweener. He's definitely not a pure checker but his offense also isn't anywhere near the other folks above. Regardless he's elite. Gainey and Westfall are elite defensive wingers. Even though he doesn't have the hardware, I think Ramsay is up there especially when you factor in special teams for the more pure checking types. Early era guy like Tommy Phillips maybe.

Toews has 1 Selke and a handful of other really nice finishes. I'm not comfortable putting him in the top tier though based on that.

I think both top 6's are, all things considered, quite close. The best defensive presences for Saskatoon are on the wings (Northcott/Loktev) with 2 solid defensive C's in Taylor and Petrov if we look at their entire careers and not just a smaller portion. And given the strength of your top 6 is clearly the wings, offensively I'm glad to have the defensive acumen on the flanks.

As I said before, if Tarasov is just going to roll his lines out there one after the other and not match I'm comfortable with the LW's I have against Howe for reasons outlined already. Northcott and Davidson in particular are pretty strong responses for Howe. Is Howe going to get shut out? Surely not. But I do think the style and defensive ability is there when looking at the LW's and LD's of the Snipers, to at least put a dent in Howe's overall impact. And in many cases that's all you can hope for against a legend. They're going to get theirs 9 times out of 10. You just have to limit the damage as much as possible and I think Saskatoon is set up to do that, be it from an ability standpoint or physical element.

One final time, I do think Howe is shouldering a lot more responsibility than he ever had to in real life. Lindsay is a top 50 player of all time. Sid Abel is a borderline top 100 player of all time. Yes, a bit of their resumes can be attached to Howe but I don't think there is anyone reading this that seriously thinks Prentice/Toews is anywhere close to the impact players Lindsay/Abel were. Gordie is a legend but some of those passes that used to get to him probably won't in this series, and some of his passes that he makes probably won't be finished by the Toews/Prentice combination.

I like Saskatoon's ability to spread the offensive wealth out better in the top 6 and the chemistry of the 2nd line puts the Snipers just over the top. Barely.

 

[Dreakmur]

Do I think Toews is elite though at an ATD level? No. I reserve that distinction for the Nighbor's, Clarke's and Datsyuk's of the world (2 way). Bergeron is sort of a tweener. He's definitely not a pure checker but his offense also isn't anywhere near the other folks above. Regardless he's elite. Gainey and Westfall are elite defensive wingers. Even though he doesn't have the hardware, I think Ramsay is up there especially when you factor in special teams for the more pure checking types. Early era guy like Tommy Phillips maybe.

Yeah, Toews isn't in that group with Clarke, Nighbor, Datsyuk, Carbonneau, or Bergeron. He's probably a tier 2 guy.

Toews has 1 Selke and a handful of other really nice finishes. I'm not comfortable putting him in the top tier though based on that.

I probably shouldn't have said elite - I don't think he's with those guys mentioned above.

I think both top 6's are, all things considered, quite close. The best defensive presences for Saskatoon are on the wings (Northcott/Loktev) with 2 solid defensive C's in Taylor and Petrov if we look at their entire careers and not just a smaller portion. And given the strength of your top 6 is clearly the wings, offensively I'm glad to have the defensive acumen on the flanks.

I think the second lines are pretty even offensively. Keon's defense isn't matched.

The first lines, we're just not going to agree. I think even strength scoring is the best way to evaluate them, which would give Orillia a significant advantage.

One final time, I do think Howe is shouldering a lot more responsibility than he ever had to in real life. Lindsay is a top 50 player of all time. Sid Abel is a borderline top 100 player of all time. Yes, a bit of their resumes can be attached to Howe but I don't think there is anyone reading this that seriously thinks Prentice/Toews is anywhere close to the impact players Lindsay/Abel were. Gordie is a legend but some of those passes that used to get to him probably won't in this series, and some of his passes that he makes probably won't be finished by the Toews/Prentice combination.

Howe carries the mail, just like he always did. Both Lindsey and Abel played much more like super-elite grinders than offensive catalysts. I chose Prentice and Toews to give Howe line mates who will play similar styles to his real life ones. As I said in the previous series, having Prentice and Toews working with Howe will ensure he doesn't have to do all the physical lifting, and allow him to spend more time using his offensive skills... just like his Red Wing line mates.

Some guys come into the ATD and get weaker line mates than they had in real life. Most of the dynasty Canadiens would apply, as would many of the 1970-88 Red Army soviets.

I like Saskatoon's ability to spread the offensive wealth out better in the top 6 and the chemistry of the 2nd line puts the Snipers just over the top. Barely.

Unless you evaluate their even strength performance by measuring their even strength production.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'll be getting to this more tonight.

Guy can't catch a break haha. Just for once can I get a series that involves a GM who doesn't show up? How many people are going to glide right through without even facing a single argument?

In all reality, I'm glad to have the distraction. I'm an introvert who doesn't like many social settings anyway. Not like I'm missing much of the world at the present it seems.

 

[Dreakmur]

Doughty vs. Stuart:
Well, I think this is a series where I can actually ride the fact that I have the best defenseman! I'm probably higher on Hod Stuart than most - I have him in the same tier as Doughty, Keith, Niedermayer, etc. Both guys are actually good options for low-end #1 defensemen. Neither guy has elite shut-down ability, nor top-end offense, but they both have really well-rounded games with no clear weaknesses. In this series, I think Doughty's proven big-game pedigree bumps him up into one step better than Stuart. Edge for Doughty

Burns vs. Howell:
#2 is pretty interesting... They couldn't be more different. Howell is the super safe and steady guy who probably won't make an impact good or bad. Burns is a river-boat gambler who can make things happen, but also takes risks to do that. This is almost a pure peak vs. longevity, though Howell does have that one really good peak year. Howell has a Norris record of 1, 5, 6, 6, 7, 9, 10. Burns has a Norris record of 1, 2, 3, 8, 12. I like more years of being good. Edge for Howell.

Lowe vs. Schoenfeld:
Boring, stay-at-homers. Lowe has a Norris record of 5, 7, 8, 10. Schoenfeld has a Norris record of 3, 7, 10, 12. They seem pretty similar at their peak. Lowe managed to be a good player for more of his non-peak years, and he has a lot more play-off success. Edge for Lowe.

Redden vs. Svedberg:
I still have no clue how to really evaluate Svedberg. Based on the scoring records I was able to find, I think it's clear that he's not the offensive weapon I thought he was. His IIHF all-star record is way better than his offensive results. Does that mean he was good defensively, or was he more flash than substance? Redden has a Norris record of 5, 9, 10, 11, 12. I'm not sure what makes him significantly worse than Lowe and Schoenfeld really. The fact that a lot of people seem to remember the end of his career more than the start doesn't help. Edge... I have no damn idea.....

Portland vs. St. Laurent:
Both big-bodied defensive defensemen. St Laurent has more puck skills. Portland is bigger, meaner and tougher. St Laurent has a Norris record of 8, 9. Portland has an All-Star record of 5, 7, 7. Portland has a better peak. Edge for Portland.

Yandle vs. Byfuglien:
Like Burns, Byfuglien I an impact player who takes risks to make those impacts. He is one of the most intimidating physical players of the modern NHL. Yandle is the basic offensive defenseman - excellent puck-mover but not good defensively. Yandle has a Norris record of 5, 12. Byfuglien has a Norris record of 7, 12, 12, 12. Byfuglien scorers a lot at even strength, and Yandle scores a lot more on the PP. While I think Yandle is the better PP quarterback, Byfuglien is quite a bit better at ES. Edge for Byfuglien.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Skimming the thread just now, I have two comments:

1) I agree with Dreakmur's general sentiment in favor of Jonathan Toews. I think he's a perfect center for Howe, and I'm really glad he kept him on the 1st line. I don't see the huge dropoff from Abel to Toews neither, especially in that situation. I think Toews will shine even more in such a prominent position. He's very good on the road too, enabling the coach to control match-ups.

2) No one is going to stop Gordie Howe, but Baldy Northcott is tailor-made for the task of battling it out against him. Northcott is just as strong as Howe physically and just below-elite defensively. There are very few LWers I would take over him to shadow Howe.

Good luck gentlemen.

 

[Dreakmur]

Skimming the thread just now, I have two comments:

1) I agree with Dreakmur's general sentiment in favor of Jonathan Toews. I think he's a perfect center for Howe, and I'm really glad he kept him on the 1st line. I don't see the huge dropoff from Abel to Toews neither, especially in that situation. I think Toews will shine even more in such a prominent position. He's very good on the road too, enabling the coach to control match-ups.

2) No one is going to stop Gordie Howe, but Baldy Northcott is tailor-made for the task of battling it out against him. Northcott is just as strong as Howe physically and just below-elite defensively. There are very few LWers I would take over him to shadow Howe.

Good luck gentlemen.

Similar to Beliveau, Howe is a tough match up. You need the strength to handle their size, but you also need the speed to keep up. It takes a unique kind of checker to match up. Northcott has the physicality. Does he have the speed?

In terms of match-ups, I think I lucked out by having the perfect foil for Saskatoon’s top offensive weapon. Dave Keon matches up really well on Cyclone Taylor.

Northcott vs Howe and Keon vs Taylor.... Who slows who down more?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Similar to Beliveau, Howe is a tough match up. You need the strength to handle their size, but you also need the speed to keep up. It takes a unique kind of checker to match up. Northcott has the physicality. Does he have the speed?

In terms of match-ups, I think I lucked out by having the perfect foil for Saskatoon’s top offensive weapon. Dave Keon matches up really well on Cyclone Taylor.

Northcott vs Howe and Keon vs Taylor.... Who slows who down more?

Can't comment on Northcott's speed specifically, but he was voted best backchecker in the league. Does being a great backchecker necessarily imply speed? I think so, but maybe not.

Keon is also a good fit against Taylor, but I don't want to go into the series too in depth, leaving this task for the GMs in action.

 

[ImporterExporter]

@Dreakmur

I'm heading up to see my folks w/ my son. I'll be back to tonight to finally put my final thoughts on this series.

Thank you for your contributions and patience!

 

[VanIslander]

• Redden an all-time great 1st pairing?
• Spezza a 3rd-line center?
• Toews 1st line offense? (not 2nd, 3rd)

Not in my universe. ABSURD!

 

[Dreakmur]

I'll start looking at special teams by comparing the 1st PP units

Valeri Kharlamov - Baldy Northcott - Cyclone Taylor - Hod Stuart - Lennart Svedberg
-Taylor is a very good 1st unit PP guy. Great speed for getting the puck up ice and entering the zone. Good puck skills and vision to set up and move the puck around. More of a passer than a shooter.
-Kharlamov is a good 1st unit PP guy. Great speed for getting the puck up ice and entering the zone. Good puck skills and vision to set up and move the puck around. More of a passer than a shooter.
-Northcott is totally out of his element here. He's an excellent glue guy, but offense is not his game. 8 career PP goals and never in the top 10.
-Stuart is a good PP point man. Good passing, good shooting, and good skating. Nothing spectacular, just really solid all around
-Svedberg, as I just learned, wasn't much of an offensive producer. Despite his all-star recognition in IIHF competitions, his best offensive output was 4th among defensemen, which he did twice in 5 World Championships and an Olympics. While those tournaments were a step up in competition from the Swedish league, it still wasn't as good as the NHL at the time. Given that, I don't see any way to rank him as anything but weak as a PP point man.

Overall, this unit looks pretty mediocre. Northcott certainly doesn't belong, and Svedberg looks pretty bad too. Taylor and Kharlamov are a strong duo, but both guys are pass-first players, and there doesn't seem to be a significant scoring threat for them to feed. They will either have to set up weak options or shoot themselves, which they are both capable of - but it's not their strength.


Camille Henry - *Bernie Morris - Gordie Howe - Brent Burns - Keith Yandle
-Howe is an elite 1st unit PP guy. One of the best in any area you want to evaluate. He can carry, he can dump-and-chase. He can win the puck. He can shoot or pass equally well.
-Henry is one of the elite net-front plyers. Very one-dimensional player, but this is his bread and butter. He may only do one thing well, but this is it.
-Morris is a decent 1st unit PP guy. Well-rounded as an offensive player, though not elite in any area. He can pass or shoot equally well.
-Burns is a good PP point man. He's really aggressive, so he'll be sneaking in and moving around a lot, which makes him tough to cover. He's also got a pretty good shot.
-Yandle is a really good PP point man. Good skater, passer, and shooter. Twice leading NHL defensemen in PP scoring, and leading all defensemen in that category since 2011, he really puts up points with the extra man.

Overall, this is a strong unit. Net presence is elite, and all 4 of the other guys are well balanced between shooting and passing, so we can mix things up really nicely. Obviously, we want Howe to be general, and we'd be silly to plan to keep the puck too far away from him, but there are a lot of options. Bernie Morris is probably the weakest in his slot, and he's still decent there.

*Firsov is on the second unit to try to keep his ice time down at reasonable levels, but depending on the game, he could hop on this unit with Henry and Howe, making it a really strong group.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Why Saskatoon Should Win:

• Big advantage behind the bench

Tarasov is a top 10 coach of all time. Possibly higher. He built a nation's hockey program from the ground up. He developed players, a specific system and tactics that fast made the Soviets on par with the Canadians, a country that had been playing hockey already for more than a half century before the USSR even began playing the game.

Trotz, outside of 1 playoff run has been a massive underachiever. He has a losing record in the postseason all time even with the title. And his 1 Cup win came against an expansion franchise so that diminishes his single win a bit in my eyes. Trotz is an average coach, who certainly cannot claim to be an innovator anywhere remotely close to that of Tarasov. He's a regular season wizard who was fortunate enough to finally catch Pittsburgh on their 3rd deep run and then lucked out to face a team that hadn't existed the prior season. Trotz is behind Tarasov from a win/losses standpoint and is not even worth comparing to someone like Tarasov in terms of contributions to the game of hockey, tactics, development of players, etc, etc.

Tarasov, with a team featuring many of his own players, a top 6 that he should absolutely love based on how he coached, gives Saskatoon a decided tactical advantage against a coach who's proven time and time again he can't win in crunch time. This isn't the regular season anymore.

• Broda

I'll keep this one short. Broada is already a small step above Bower all time. Factor in the postseason where Turk came in at 17th all time in the postseason performers. The only goalies to come in above him? Roy and Plante. That's it. In a close series, give me the elite performer. Bower is no slouch in this area but he's not on Broda's level.

Already Orillia is well behind Saskatoon head to head. Going to catch up based on skaters? Not IMO.

• Slightly better top 6:

I'll let the voters decide but one last time, there is just no way to argue Prentice/Toews is even remotely in the same class as Northcott/Taylor. I placed Taylor 23rd all time in the top 100 project. He's pretty much a universal top 40 player ever. Toews isn't sniffing the top 100 any time soon. Taylor's offensive ability is well document and known. He's a legendary skater. His defensive contributions and ability are undersold, sometimes badly.

Northcott has a slightly better VsX than Prentice and Northcott was arguably the best back checker of his era and IMO is about the perfect player to go head to head vs Howe. More on that later.

Taylor between the SCF's in 1915 (against Ottawa) and 1918 (against Toronto Arenas), both wins, scored 17 goals in 8 games. That's ridiculous production against very quality opponents. Northcott likely would have been a Smythe winner in 1935 when he lead the playoffs in goals, game winning goals, and points when the Maroons swept and upset the Maple Leafs.

Neither 1st line has a defensive weak spot but Saskatoon simply has a much better player at C and a LW who's a step above Prentice IMO. Prentice can't even best Northcott in offense and I don't think Dean is anything more than above average in that regard. The offensive gap between Taylor and Toews is huge, just as Howe/Palffy.

So give me the line that has a better LW and a much better C.

The second line seems like a straight wash. Kharlamov is the best player on either unit. He has his real life C and a RW who fits them about perfectly. I think Tarasov/Kharlamov/Petrov/Loktev is one of the best pure connections in the ATD. The line can defend/go power on power, has very strong 2nd line offense at LW/C and a RW who fits the other two like a glove. I certainly think Morris is an upgrade over Loktev all time but I just don't see Keon above Petrov. Petrov is so much better offensively, he became a good defensive C following the 1972 Summit series. Keon is still the best defensive presence on either unit and a very strong playoff performer but Petrov has a fantastic international resume, loaded with accolades and ridiculous offensive #'s. Keon being rated over someone like Petrov, to me, is one example of the biases that still occur against the pre NHL Soviets. Even if one puts the Terriers a little bit ahead here just based on the names, I think chemistry bridges and tiny gap that may exist.

Key accolades for Petrov:

• 1973, 1975, 1977, 1979 – World Championships All-Star
• 1973, 1975, 1977, 1979 – World Championships leading scorer
• 1972, 1973 – Soviet League Player of the Year
• 1973, 1975, 1977, 1979 – Soviet League All-Star
• 1970, 1973, 1975, 1978, 1979 – Soviet League leading scorer

• Limiting Howe:

Northcott and Davidson in particular are 2 players who are tailor made to match up with Howe. Northcott was a big player in his day, uber physical, and was arguably the best defensive F in the era. Davidson was also a very big player, extremely physical and while not on the level of Baldy defensively, he's still well above average. With those 2 playing over half the game at LW, Howe is going to be closely followed by guys who simply match extremely well, especially from the physicality standpoint and absolutely have the defensive acumen to not be abused too badly.

Quote from Milt Schmidt sums up Davidson well:

"I've known few men who exceeded Woody (Dumart) in his talent, both ways on the ice. The only comparison that comes readily to mind is Bob Davidson."

Even Kerr (another physical and snappy player) and Kharlamov are not liabilities defensively.

Add in the fact that Howe, on the right side will be running into Howell and Schoenfeld often, I think the Snipers are set up well to make Howe rely on significantly weaker 1st line teammates.

Couple quotes on Howell:

"The thing that makes him the great hockey player he is," Emile Francis once said "is that the quality of his game seldom varies. Some defensemen, they look like all-stars one night, or maybe for three games in a row, and then they tail off. But Harry, he's like the Rock of Gibraltar."

Francis added "Hockey is a game of mistakes, and Harry doesn't make many of them."

On Schoenfeld:

Jim Schoenfeld was a goaltender's best friend. A dominating defenseman in his own zone, Schoenfeld was a more unheralded version of Rod Langway in many ways.

The highest rated defenseman in the 1972 Entry Draft, Schoenfeld was drafted 5th overall by the young Buffalo Sabres franchise. Although they realized that Schoenfeld wouldn't do a whole lot offensively, they realized just how special this player truly was.

Schoeny was as tough as they come, and he solidified that reputation early in his career. On December 13, 1972 of his rookie season, Jim got into three fights in a game against the Big Bad Boston Bruins. Jim tangled with Bobby Orr first, which of course would make him a marked man instantly. Carol Vadnais and Wayne Cashman, two of the more rugged Bruins, would go at it with Schoenfeld by the end of the game. The fight with Cashman was particularly memorable as the two crashed against the Zamboni entrance doors. The doors opened up unexpectedly as the two exited the ice.

While Schoeny could handle his own against any of the NHL's toughest customers, don't think he was your stereotypical 1970's goons. He was a fan favorite in Buffalo because of his bone crunching bodychecks, his fearless shot blocking, his tenacity in front of his own net and his constant hustle and work ethic.

• Bottom 6 players don't fit Trotz

Spezza, Tarasenko and even Henry? Playing on a Trotz team, in a bottom 6 role? I don't think so. It's just a very odd hodgepodge of players.

• Redden on a top pair?

Just no. This is the most glaring negative of the entire series. Redden is a perfectly capable #3/4. He had a very solid career, consistently a borderline top 10 Dman for about about a half decade. Solid 2 way player but in no way shape or form should he ever be on an ATD top pairing. Especially when the #1 is Drew Doughty, an at best, average #1 here.

If Redden was skating next to Bobby Orr or Doug Harvey, I'd still think it crazy but at least passable. Next to DD? Not a chance.

Harry Howell is a Norris winner and HOF'er. Whatever gap exists from Doughty to Hod Stuart is completely erased by Redden playing this high in a lineup.

And yes, I understand he's your #4 and won't play traditional top pairing minutes. But it's Wade Redden against Cylone Taylor, Kharlamov, Petrov and company. Hod Stuart may be a borderline #1 but at least he's skating next to a legitimate top pairing presence.

 

[Dreakmur]

Big advantage behind the bench

Tarasov is a top 10 coach of all time. Possibly higher. He built a nation's hockey program from the ground up. He developed players, a specific system and tactics that fast made the Soviets on par with the Canadians, a country that had been playing hockey already for more than a half century before the USSR even began playing the game.

Trotz, outside of 1 playoff run has been a massive underachiever. He has a losing record in the postseason all time even with the title. And his 1 Cup win came against an expansion franchise so that diminishes his single win a bit in my eyes. Trotz is an average coach, who certainly cannot claim to be an innovator anywhere remotely close to that of Tarasov. He's a regular season wizard who was fortunate enough to finally catch Pittsburgh on their 3rd deep run and then lucked out to face a team that hadn't existed the prior season. Trotz is behind Tarasov from a win/losses standpoint and is not even worth comparing to someone like Tarasov in terms of contributions to the game of hockey, tactics, development of players, etc, etc.

Tarasov, with a team featuring many of his own players, a top 6 that he should absolutely love based on how he coached, gives Saskatoon a decided tactical advantage against a coach who's proven time and time again he can't win in crunch time. This isn't the regular season anymore.

Tarasov is one of the best coaches of all time. I think Trotz is well above average, but Tarasov is still better.

How much of a difference does the line matching make? Tarasov rarely did that in real life, so why would he do it now? That's goin to be a huge part of any series.

Broda
I'll keep this one short. Broada is already a small step above Bower all time. Factor in the postseason where Turk came in at 17th all time in the postseason performers. The only goalies to come in above him? Roy and Plante. That's it. In a close series, give me the elite performer. Bower is no slouch in this area but he's not on Broda's level.

What makes Broda better?

Their regular season voting records are just about equal, and Bower accomplished it going head to head with Jacques Plante, Glenn Hall, and Terry Sawchuk. Broda also got two first team all-stars when that distinction seemed to be awarded automatically to the goalie with the lowest GAA. I think Bower's regular seasons were definitely more impressive.

Yes Broda is an excellent play-off performer. Bower is clutch too. Broda probably a little more, which probably pulls them into a tie for this series.

Slightly better top 6:
I'll let the voters decide but one last time, there is just no way to argue Prentice/Toews is even remotely in the same class as Northcott/Taylor. I placed Taylor 23rd all time in the top 100 project. He's pretty much a universal top 40 player ever. Toews isn't sniffing the top 100 any time soon. Taylor's offensive ability is well document and known. He's a legendary skater. His defensive contributions and ability are undersold, sometimes badly.

It comes down to whether you believe even strength contributions should be evaluated separately. I think it's really important to know how players scored their points.

Dean Prentice scored a huge percentage of his points at even strength. That's likely because he didn't get much PP time in real life. Ziggy Palffy, on the other hand, played like 5 minutes a game on the PP, and as a result, scored a lot of PP points.

Northcott has a slightly better VsX than Prentice and Northcott was arguably the best back checker of his era

We have all-star records for both players. Northcott got a 1st team all -star once and never got any other serious consideration. Prentice was 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th in an era where he competed for votes with Bobby Hull, Frank Mahovlich, Ted Lindsey, Dickie Moore, and Bert Olmstead.

Clearly, Prentice did something to impress people a lot more than Northcott.

The offensive gap between Taylor and Toews is huge, just as Howe/Palffy.

Unless you look at their ES scoring to valuate their ES scoring...

The second line seems like a straight wash. Kharlamov is the best player on either unit. He has his real life C and a RW who fits them about perfectly. I think Tarasov/Kharlamov/Petrov/Loktev is one of the best pure connections in the ATD. The line can defend/go power on power, has very strong 2nd line offense at LW/C and a RW who fits the other two like a glove. I certainly think Morris is an upgrade over Loktev all time but I just don't see Keon above Petrov. Petrov is so much better offensively, he became a good defensive C following the 1972 Summit series. Keon is still the best defensive presence on either unit and a very strong playoff performer but Petrov has a fantastic international resume, loaded with accolades and ridiculous offensive #'s. Keon being rated over someone like Petrov, to me, is one example of the biases that still occur against the pre NHL Soviets. Even if one puts the Terriers a little bit ahead here just based on the names, I think chemistry bridges and tiny gap that may exist.

Offensively, sure, the second lines are a wash. Dave Keon's defensive ability gives Orillia the edge in overall play.

Bottom 6 players don't fit Trotz
Spezza, Tarasenko and even Henry? Playing on a Trotz team, in a bottom 6 role? I don't think so. It's just a very odd hodgepodge of players.

Why, specifically, don't they fit? Trotz is not the kind of coach who doesn't use a diverse group of players to their strengths.

No question my team relies on the top 2 lines at ES, and the bottom 6 is mostly for certain roles. I suppose it's not all that different than the Davidson-Madden-Randall line under Tarasov....

Redden on a top pair?
Just no. This is the most glaring negative of the entire series. Redden is a perfectly capable #3/4. He had a very solid career, consistently a borderline top 10 Dman for about about a half decade. Solid 2 way player but in no way shape or form should he ever be on an ATD top pairing. Especially when the #1 is Drew Doughty, an at best, average #1 here.

Redden isn't playing top pairing minutes. He's not being used in a shut down role. He will be playing the 4th most minutes. He's listed next to his regular ES partner.

Both the top two pairs will play similar minutes at ES, though Doughty and Lowe will take shifts together in key defensive situations.

The biggest help to my defensemen is the fact that the defensemen are being supported by Toews and Keon for a huge portion of the game.

Harry Howell is a Norris winner and HOF'er. Whatever gap exists from Doughty to Hod Stuart is completely erased by Redden playing this high in a lineup.

And yes, I understand he's your #4 and won't play traditional top pairing minutes. But it's Wade Redden against Cylone Taylor, Kharlamov, Petrov and company. Hod Stuart may be a borderline #1 but at least he's skating next to a legitimate top pairing presence.

You think Schoenfeld is going to shut down Gordie Howe, but Wade Redden is going to get eaten alive by Cyclone Taylor?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

• Redden an all-time great 1st pairing?
• Spezza a 3rd-line center?
• Toews 1st line offense? (not 2nd, 3rd)

Not in my universe. ABSURD!

I honestly think Saskatoon has a bigger coach-roster mismatch on their third line than Orillia does. The Soviets never used "shutdown lines." And while Toews is no Abel, I think he's perfectly fine for the role he's playing.

Redden on a 1st pairing is definitely a bad look, even though I get that he's getting less ice time than that.

 

[Dreakmur]

I honestly think Saskatoon has a bigger coach-roster mismatch on their third line than Orillia does.

Jack Marshall - Jason Spezza - Vladimir Tarasenko is a perfectly well balanced line. If people are totally locked into the idea that the third line has to be a checking line, I'm sure it looks weird.

With my top two lines being so good defensively, they will both be used as the hard match-up lines. I don't need a pure checking 3rd line, so I just went with the best players. That's not something Trotz wouldn't incorporate into his gameplan.

Redden on a 1st pairing is definitely a bad look, even though I get that he's getting less ice time than that.

Yeah, I'll probably lose a few votes from people who don't bother to read and find out that he's #4 in ice time, but I'm fine with that.

 

[Namba 17]

The Soviets never used "shutdown lines."

The interesting fact is that it was Tarasov, who tried to implement smth like that. It was "shutdown line" and he tried to play it against Spartak 1st line. He also tried to use it in international games, but this didn't last for long. See Mishakov - Ionov - Moiseev line.

 

[Theokritos]

The interesting fact is that it was Tarasov, who tried to implement smth like that. It was "shutdown line" and he tried to play it against Spartak 1st line. He also tried to use it in international games, but this didn't last for long. See Mishakov - Ionov - Moiseev line.

That's right. From 1965-1966 on, that line (called "the system" because it was the first implementation of Tarasov's 1-2-2 "system") was regularly used to shut down Starshinov & Boris Mayorov. Yuri Moiseyev developed the reputation of being a "specialist for Starshinov". A few quotes from the Twenty Years of Soviet Hockey thread (specifically the Mishakov post – I should probably re-arrange the posts there somewhat to un-bury that aspect):

Boris Mikhailov: "The CSKA unit of Oleg Zaitsev, Igor Romishevsky, Yevgeni Mishakov, Anatoli Ionov and Yuri Moiseyev was considered the gold standard when it came to neutralizing opponents."

Vyacheslav Starshinov: "Our line had a hard time playing against the 'system'. The task of the 'system': to neutralize the first line of Spartak. They actively got in our way and repeatedly succeeded with their tactics. It didn't result in pretty hockey, but what counts are goals, even when the means aren't beautiful to watch. For a long time we didn't know how to counter the 'system', they regularly got the better of us and managed to neutralize us."

It's definitely not true that the Soviets didn't use any line-matching whatsoever. For example, there are game reports from the 1966-1967 season that show how Tarasov and Bobrov were jostling to get their preferred match-ups against each other when CSKA played against Spartak. Bobrov wanted the Starshinov line on the ice against the ailing Almetov line, but Tarasov "rejected the offer" several times and sent out Moiseyev & Co. Bobrov went as far as double-shifting the Starshinov line to finally get his match-up. In the next game between the two teams, Tarasov countered by moving Moiseyev to the Almetov line to shut down Starshinov. On the international level, we have the example of Viktor Yakushev who was frequently used to "shadow" the best Swedish forwards, namely Sven Tumba Johansson and Ulf Sterner.

I don't know when or whether this practice stopped. Maybe CSKA became so dominant and untouchable under Tikhonov that match-ups became an afterthought? No idea.

 

[ImporterExporter]

That's right. From 1965-1966 on, that line (called "the system" because it was the first implementation of Tarasov's 1-2-2 "system") was regularly used to shut down Starshinov & Boris Mayorov. Yuri Moiseyev developed the reputation of being a "specialist for Starshinov". A few quotes from the Twenty Years of Soviet Hockey thread (specifically the Mishakov post – I should probably re-arrange the posts there somewhat to un-bury that aspect):

Boris Mikhailov: "The CSKA unit of Oleg Zaitsev, Igor Romishevsky, Yevgeni Mishakov, Anatoli Ionov and Yuri Moiseyev was considered the gold standard when it came to neutralizing opponents."

Vyacheslav Starshinov: "Our line had a hard time playing against the 'system'. The task of the 'system': to neutralize the first line of Spartak. They actively got in our way and repeatedly succeeded with their tactics. It didn't result in pretty hockey, but what counts are goals, even when the means aren't beautiful to watch. For a long time we didn't know how to counter the 'system', they regularly got the better of us and managed to neutralize us."

It's definitely not true that the Soviets didn't use any line-matching whatsoever. For example, there are game reports from the 1966-1967 season that show how Tarasov and Bobrov were jostling to get their preferred match-ups against each other when CSKA played against Spartak. Bobrov wanted the Starshinov line on the ice against the ailing Almetov line, but Tarasov "rejected the offer" several times and sent out Moiseyev & Co. Bobrov went as far as double-shifting the Starshinov line to finally get his match-up. In the next game between the two teams, Tarasov countered by moving Moiseyev to the Almetov line to shut down Starshinov. On the international level, we have the example of Viktor Yakushev who was frequently used to "shadow" the best Swedish forwards, namely Sven Tumba Johansson and Ulf Sterner.

I don't know when or whether this practice stopped. Maybe CSKA became so dominant and untouchable under Tikhonov that match-ups became an afterthought? No idea.

Thank you and @Namba 17 for these additions. I really want to see a coaching project done in the next year or 2 over in the HoH section. I think it would be a fantastic exercise. Different dynamics from the players. I think more research would be needed for most coaches which is, IMO, one of the most rewarding aspects of those types of projects. Tarasov would probably be exposed more deeply to a lot of people, myself included.

These intricate details are great.

 

[Dreakmur]

Thank you and @Namba 17 for these additions. I really want to see a coaching project done in the next year or 2 over in the HoH section. I think it would be a fantastic exercise. Different dynamics from the players. I think more research would be needed for most coaches which is, IMO, one of the most rewarding aspects of those types of projects. Tarasov would probably be exposed more deeply to a lot of people, myself included.

These intricate details are great.

Definitely.

 

[Dreakmur]

Why Orillia Wins

The First Line:
-The trio of Dean Prentice - Jonathan Toews - Gordie Howe is a dominant force at even strength. Nothing Saskatoon has comes close. Offensively, defensively, and physically, this group is a powerhouse.
-Their ES vx.X scores of 76.6, 78.9, and 121.6 give them a total of 277.1. Compared to Northcott (68.6), Taylor(107.6), and Pallffy(72.9) with total of 249.1.
-While Saskatoon doesn't have any defensive liabilities, it doesn't match Orillia. Toews, Howe, and Northcott are all very good, borderline elite. Prentice is good. Taylor and Palffy are "not bad".
-Also, the Saskatoon trio relies a lot on Northcott to do the dirty work. Orillia's unit totally shares the burdens of trench work and puck-winning duties, which should allow all of the to just play rather than waiting for somebody else to do a job. It also allows them all to stay more fresh, which not only will allow them to better win the battles they engage in, but it will allow them to play more minutes.

Dave Keon vs. Cyclone Taylor:
-At even strength, Saskatoon's top unit relies almost exclusively on Cyclone Taylor to create offense. Without any elite puck-moving defensemen, this should allow Orillia to really key onto Taylor.
-Enter Dave Keon; perhaps the perfect foil for Cyclone Taylor. He has the speed and the quickness to check him and the work ethic and tenacity to make life hard for him.
-Best part is, I don't have to roll out a garbage checking line to get this match-up.

Blueline Depth:
-Saskatoon has a better top pair, since they put their two best defensemen there. When that pair isn't on the ice, that defense core looks pretty rough. Against a team with such a strong second line, like Orillia, that's going to be a problem.
-Spreading out the top-4 across two pairs allows me to better handle a team like Saskatoon, who has two really solid offensive units.
-From top to bottom, I think Orillia has a slightly better defense core. Doughty>Stuart, Burns<Howell, Lowe>Schoenfeld, Redden=Svedberg, Portland>St.Laurent, Yandle<Byfuglien.

Scoring Depth:
-You may not like Jack Marshall-Jason Spezza-Vladimir Tarasenko in a defensive role, but that's not that they're doing. The Toews and Keon line will handle all of the match-up duties, which will allow the Spezza line to key in on the weaker parts of other team's roster.
-I've said it a million times, but I think your bottom 6 should fill gaps in team needs. Saskatoon needed defensive players to fill checking and penalty killing roles, so they too checkers and penalty killers. That was smart, it's what the team needed. With so many strong defensive players in the top-6, Orillia had very different needs. We needed a center for the 2nd PP, which is why Spezza was valuable. I thought I might need a PP pointman, so Jack Marshall made sense. In the end, it came down to the fact that I didnt need roleplayers, so I just took the best players.
-While the Madden line fills an important role for Saskatoon, the Spezza line is just made up of better hockey players. They're the better line and they'll certainly provide much, much more secondary scoring.

Heavy Forecheck vs. Mediocre Puck-Movers
-I don't think Saskatoon's blueline is weak, but they do have a lack of good puck-moving ability. They have a couple guy who I would say are decent, but that certainly is not the unit's strength, especially after that first pair. Dealing with a really strong forecheck at this level requires some equally strong puck movement, and I don't think Saskatoon has that.

Powerplay:
-Baldy Northcott is way out of his element on any ATD powerplay. Never top-10 in PP goals, and has a total of 8 career PP goals. He's the main threat from the slot?
-Lennart Svedbertg isn't 1st unit quality, let alone both 1st and 2nd unit quality.
-Saskatoon has two really good PP guys in Taylor and Kharlamov, but they're both primarily passers and there's nobody worth passing to.
-Orillia has much more balance, and Bernie Morris is probably their weakest link, and he's average at worst.


Good luck @ImporterExporter this was a fun series with some good discussion.

If any voters have concerns about either roster, feel free to ask. We'll both actually defend our teams!​