Rene Lecavalier Division Finals - Saskatoon Snipers (1) vs Orillia Terriers (3)

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Saskatoon Snipers (1)


Coach:

Anatoly Tarasov

Forwards:

Baldy Northcott - Cyclone Taylor - Ziggy Palffy

Valeri Kharlamov - Vladimir Petrov - Konstantin Loktev

Bob Davidson (A) - John Madden - Ken Randall

Dubbie Kerr - Vladimir Shadrin - Bobby Gould (defensive upgrade)

Spare:

Marcel Bonin - LW
Hakan Loob - RW

Defensemen:

Harry Howell - Hod Stuart (A)

Jim Schoenfeld (C) - Lennart Svedberg

Dollar St. Laurent - Dustin Byfuglien

Spare:

Christian Ehrhoff

Goalies:

Turk Broda
Chris Osgood

Special Teams:


PP1:

Kharlamov (half wall) - Northcott (net front) - Taylor (half wall)
Stuart (trigger) - Svedberg (QB)

PP2:

Kerr (half wall) - Petrov (bumper) - Palffy (half wall)
Byfuglien (trigger) - Svedberg (QB)

PK1:

Davidson - Madden
Schoenfeld - Howell

PK2:

Shadrin - Gould
St Laurent - Stuart



VS



th

'

Orillia Terriers (3)


Barry Trotz

Dean Prentice - Jonathan Toews "C" - Gordie Howe
Anatoli Firsov - Dave Keon "A" - Bernie Morris

Jack Marshall - Jason Spezza - Vladimir Tarasenko
Camille Henry - David Krejci - Bobby Schmautz


Wade Redden - Drew Doughty
Kevin Lowe "A" - Brent Burns
Keith Yandle - Jack Portland


Johnny Bower
Glenn Resch

Spares
Walt Buswell, D
Jaroslav Jirik, LW/RW
Buddy O'Connor, C

PP1 - Camille Henry - Bernie Morris - Gordie Howe - Brent Burns - Keith Yandle
PP2 - Anatoli Firsov - Jason Spezza - Vladimir Tarasenko - Drew Doughty - Wade Redden


PK1 - Dave Keon - Anatoli Firsov - Kevin Lowe - Jack Portland
PK2 - Jonathan Toews - Gordie Howe - Wade Redden - Drew Doughty

 

Dreakmur

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Looking forward to digging into a few players on your team.

Lennart Svedberg - No idea how to evaluate him. His all-star voting record was much better than his offensive resume, which is unusual for offensive players, which is what we believe he is, right?

Vladimir Petrov - I might be higher on this guy than many. His offensive resume is better than Kharlamov's. Why was his voting record so much worse?
 
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"You're a boring old man"
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Looking forward to digging into a few players on your team.

Lennart Svedberg - No idea how to evaluate him. His all-star voting record was much better than his offensive resume, which is unusual for offensive players, which is what we believe he is, right?

Vladimir Petrov - I might be higher on this guy than many. His offensive resume is better than Kharlamov's. Why was his voting record so much worse?

As am I.

I went a bit out of the norm taking so many non NHL'ers but overall I think it helped keep the team in good shape from a chemistry standpoint and i definitely wanted to try something different than my Pitt squad.

I will say I'm very glad I drafted Bob Davidson haha. Big, super physical, strong defensively and he had success putting the clamps down on Maurice Richard. He should match up as well as anyone can against Gordie.

Bob Davidson
 

Dreakmur

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I went a bit out of the norm taking so many non NHL'ers but overall I think it helped keep the team in good shape from a chemistry standpoint and i definitely wanted to try something different than my Pitt squad.

Yeah, I went way outside my comfort zone too. Not only did I take two wingers first and second, one was a soviet that I didn't really know much about.

I will say I'm very glad I drafted Bob Davidson haha. Big, super physical, strong defensively and he had success putting the clamps down on Maurice Richard. He should match up as well as anyone can against Gordie.

Bob Davidson

Davidson's risen a lot lately. He's a decent 3rd line checker by this point. I think it takes a lot more than that to compete with Gordie Howe.

Maybe more importantly, you might want that matchup, but it's up to your coach to get it, and I don't think Tarasov matched lines at all. I'm higher on Tarasov than most, having him a arguably #1 all time... but, I would need to be convinced that he will match lines effectively, if at all.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Looking forward to digging into a few players on your team.

Lennart Svedberg - No idea how to evaluate him. His all-star voting record was much better than his offensive resume, which is unusual for offensive players, which is what we believe he is, right?

Vladimir Petrov - I might be higher on this guy than many. His offensive resume is better than Kharlamov's. Why was his voting record so much worse?

I've seen a few points that go to this. The most salient ones to me:

1) Kharlamov wasn't a great defensive player, but he was a solid one. Killed some penalties, I believe. Petrov, before the Summit Series was as close to the Soviets had to a player who was terrible without the puck, but he learned during the Summit Series that he had to be more than that. This is consistent with Petrov receiving very little best player votes before the Summit Series despite scoring good totals, but he received a typical number of votes for his offense afterwards.

2) The Soviet league didn't track second assists at all, something that would generally hurt a line's primary puck carrier, which was Kharlamov. This is assuming that secondary assists are something of a proxy for offensive possession.
 
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Yeah, I went way outside my comfort zone too. Not only did I take two wingers first and second, one was a soviet that I didn't really know much about.



Davidson's risen a lot lately. He's a decent 3rd line checker by this point. I think it takes a lot more than that to compete with Gordie Howe.

Maybe more importantly, you might want that matchup, but it's up to your coach to get it, and I don't think Tarasov matched lines at all. I'm higher on Tarasov than most, having him a arguably #1 all time... but, I would need to be convinced that he will match lines effectively, if at all.

Oh I don't think he'll have to match lines up in a traditional sense. I think the Snipers are well positioned to at least make Howe's time on the ice as rough as possible, knowing that he's the king of that arena, I still would rather have physicality than soft serve ice cream.

3 of my 4 LW's are well suited to play against Howe IMO.

Northcott is about as perfect a player you could draw up. Big, massively physical player, way above the bar defensively who wasn't inept offensively. Davidson brings little offense but he has a lot of the characteristics that Northcott has otherwise. Kerr is a really nice 4th line winger here. Good scoring totals and he was a physical player with a hot temper at times. 70's bio paints a nice picture for Kerr in a bottom 6 role here IMO.

It's also important to note Howe is going from Lindsay-Abel to Prentice-Toews, so Howe will have to shoulder a much heavier load than he was used to in real life. It's Gordie Howe, yes, but his line mates here are very steep drop offs in terms of offensive acumen. Who's getting the puck to Howe? If Howe has it, who is scoring goals off his passes?
 

Dreakmur

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Oh I don't think he'll have to match lines up in a traditional sense. I think the Snipers are well positioned to at least make Howe's time on the ice as rough as possible, knowing that he's the king of that arena, I still would rather have physicality than soft serve ice cream.

3 of my 4 LW's are well suited to play against Howe IMO.

Northcott is about as perfect a player you could draw up. Big, massively physical player, way above the bar defensively who wasn't inept offensively. Davidson brings little offense but he has a lot of the characteristics that Northcott has otherwise. Kerr is a really nice 4th line winger here. Good scoring totals and he was a physical player with a hot temper at times. 70's bio paints a nice picture for Kerr in a bottom 6 role here IMO.

Northcott is a good physical defensive power forward. I like him as a glue-guy. I'm not too worried that he will slow down Gordie Howe.

It's also important to note Howe is going from Lindsay-Abel to Prentice-Toews, so Howe will have to shoulder a much heavier load than he was used to in real life. It's Gordie Howe, yes, but his line mates here are very steep drop offs in terms of offensive acumen. Who's getting the puck to Howe? If Howe has it, who is scoring goals off his passes?

Abel to Toews isn't much of a drop, if any. If yo do nothing but the vs.x formula, Abel comes away ES score of 85.7. How do you account for Howe as his linemate? Well, I just use Howe as the benchmark if he was above the normal benchmark for that year. If you benefit from playing with a player, you shouldn't also benefit from what he does to the formula. Once you do that math, Abel comes away with a 77.7, which makes him essentially equal to Toews' 78.9.

Lindsey is much better than Prentice, there's no arguing that -- 91.7 to 76.6.
 

rmartin65

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Abel to Toews isn't much of a drop, if any. If yo do nothing but the vs.x formula, Abel comes away ES score of 85.7. How do you account for Howe as his linemate? Well, I just use Howe as the benchmark if he was above the normal benchmark for that year. If you benefit from playing with a player, you shouldn't also benefit from what he does to the formula. Once you do that math, Abel comes away with a 77.7, which makes him essentially equal to Toews' 78.9.

I generally don't like getting involved in other series but this argument really bothers me. Abel was a 2 time 1st team all-star, 2 time second team all-star, and 1 time MVP winner. Toews has been.... a one time 2nd team all-star. And let's not pretend that Toews didn't get a boost with some of his teammates- Kane, Hossa, Panarin, Sharp... Certainly no Howe's in that list, but there is some talent there, so it is not like Toews wasn't getting either some boosts from teammates, or less focus from top defensive units.

Stylistically, I like the pairing. But Toews is no Abel... and they should not be treated as roughly equal.
 

Dreakmur

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I generally don't like getting involved in other series but this argument really bothers me. Abel was a 2 time 1st team all-star, 2 time second team all-star, and 1 time MVP winner. Toews has been.... a one time 2nd team all-star.

How many seasons do you think Abel was viewed as a top-5 player in the world?

Jonathan Toews was for just about his entire peak:
2011 Hockey News - 5th Best Player
2012 Hockey News - 5th Best Center
2014 Hockey News - 6th Best Player
2015 Player vote - 5th Best Player
2016 Hockey News - 2nd Best Player

And let's not pretend that Toews didn't get a boost with some of his teammates- Kane, Hossa, Panarin, Sharp... Certainly no Howe's in that list, but there is some talent there, so it is not like Toews wasn't getting either some boosts from teammates, or less focus from top defensive units.

None of those guys would drive up anyone's offensive numbers like playing with guys like Gretzky, Howe, or Lemieux. It's just not comparable at all.

Kane and Toews barely played together, right? Panarin was in Chicago for 2 years and never played with Toews.

Toews centered Marian Hossa and Andrew Ladd, then Brendan Saad, for just about his entire peak. Hossa might have outscored him once, the other two never did.

Stylistically, I like the pairing. But Toews is no Abel... and they should not be treated as roughly equal.

In terms of even strength scoring, they are, right?

Either 85.7 (not adjusted for Howe) or 77.7.... vs. 78.9.
 

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As I said before, I think Howe is going to find life much different with Prentice and Toews as his partners. I've said since the beginning, I like the fit but Howe, as great as he is, doesn't have near the help here that he enjoyed through a very large portion of his career. Who is finishing on the line? Facilitating?

And when you get guys like Madden, Shadrin, Petrov and Taylor really hampering already below the bar offensive C's, you're leaving an awful lot to the wingers, which I don't generally like seeing in championship teams. Most SC winners throughout history are strong down the middle, offensively/defensively. Saskatoon has a nice set of LW's to check Howe, who is coming down the right side which also happens to Harry Howell, Jim Schoenfeld, and Dolard St. Laurent, all very strong defensive defensemen. Schoenfeld and St Laurent were very heavy bodies as well.

I don't think there is much of an argument that Howe is just going to walk all over the Snipers. I'm sure he'll get some points, but this is no walk in the park IMO.
 

Dreakmur

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Anyway, Sid Abel isn't in this series, so lets start with the actual line comparisons....

Even Strength Scoring:
Gordie Howe - 121.6

Cylcone Taylor - 107.6 (just using his regular vs.x)

Anatoli Firsov - 90.0 (total guess)
Valeri Kharkamov - 90.0 (total guess)
Vladimir Petrov - 90.0 (total guess)
Bernie Morris - 85.9 (just using his regular vs.x)

Jonathan Toews - 78.9
Dean Prentice - 76.6
Dave Keon - 73.0
Ziggy Palffy - 72.9
Konstantine Loktev - 70.0 (total guess)

Baldy Northcott - 67.9 (2 seasons regular vs.x and 5 seasons of ES)

Orillia Total - 526
Saskatoon Total - 498.4


Defensive Ability:
Elite - Dave Keon, Jonathan Toews

Very Good - Baldy Northcott, Anatoli Firsov

Good - Gordie Howe, Dean Prentice, Konstantine Loktev

Better than Average - Cyclone Taylor, Valeri Kharlamov

Non-Factor - Bernie Morris, Ziggy Palffy

Bad - Vladimir Petrov
 
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rmartin65

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How many seasons do you think Abel was viewed as a top-5 player in the world?

Jonathan Toews was for just about his entire peak:
2011 Hockey News - 5th Best Player
2012 Hockey News - 5th Best Center
2014 Hockey News - 6th Best Player
2015 Player vote - 5th Best Player
2016 Hockey News - 2nd Best Player

Well... he was viewed as the best once, and finished 4th for Hart in another, so he must have been viewed near the top for at least those two seasons. And then he had 2 more high level seasons that matched Toew's best AS voting.

Toews was propped up because of voter fatigue. People were tired of Crosby being the best player in the world, and looked for someone to challenge him. Toews was a good-ol' Canadian boy who was a meat-and-potatoes style captain for a team that was winning cups. It was a perfect story- Crosby had the stats, but Toews was a "winner", and it let certain segments of the hockey watching population feel good about themselves because they were looking at something other than points. People who didn't agree were just uneducated about the finer parts of the game.


None of those guys would drive up anyone's offensive numbers like playing with guys like Gretzky, Howe, or Lemieux. It's just not comparable at all.

Sure, which is why I said there were no Howe's in the bunch.

Kane and Toews barely played together, right? Panarin was in Chicago for 2 years and never played with Toews.

Toews centered Marian Hossa and Andrew Ladd, then Brendan Saad, for just about his entire peak. Hossa might have outscored him once, the other two never did. I honestly don't have the usage numbers off the top of my head. That sounds mostly right. But then we are looking at Toews facing secondary defensive units and still being outscored by his teammates.



In terms of even strength scoring, they are, right?

Either 85.7 (not adjusted for Howe) or 77.7.... vs. 78.9.

In terms of ES VsX, without usage context and with a weird linemate fudge, then yes, they look fairly equal.
 

Dreakmur

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As I said before, I think Howe is going to find life much different with Prentice and Toews as his partners. I've said since the beginning, I like the fit but Howe, as great as he is, doesn't have near the help here that he enjoyed through a very large portion of his career. Who is finishing on the line? Facilitating?

Gordie Howe's got a lot more help here than Cyclone Taylor. Northcott and Palffy might be the two weakest ES scorers in either top-6.

And when you get guys like Madden, Shadrin, Petrov and Taylor really hampering already below the bar offensive C's, you're leaving an awful lot to the wingers, which I don't generally like seeing in championship teams.

So you're going to use Cyclone Taylor and Vladimir Petrov to check Dave Keon and Jonathan Toews? Seems like an excellent way for you to eliminate your best two scoring threats for me.

Most SC winners throughout history are strong down the middle, offensively/defensively.

I agree that most SC winners have good two-way play down the middle, which is exactly why I took Keon and Toews instead of some offensive centers.

Though, if I'm honest, I would have take Bill Cowley instead of Keon if I knew Toews would be available later.

Saskatoon has a nice set of LW's to check Howe, who is coming down the right side which also happens to Harry Howell, Jim Schoenfeld, and Dolard St. Laurent, all very strong defensive defensemen. Schoenfeld and St Laurent were very heavy bodies as well.

Harry Howell is a nice defensive defenseman. I don't see Schoenfeld or St. Laurent handling any first unit well, let alone one that has Howe.

I don't think there is much of an argument that Howe is just going to walk all over the Snipers. I'm sure he'll get some points, but this is no walk in the park IMO.

It's never easy.
 

Dreakmur

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Well... he was viewed as the best once, and finished 4th for Hart in another, so he must have been viewed near the top for at least those two seasons. And then he had 2 more high level seasons that matched Toew's best AS voting.

There's a difference between... "who had the best season?" and "who do you think is the best player?"

Toews was propped up because of voter fatigue. People were tired of Crosby being the best player in the world, and looked for someone to challenge him. Toews was a good-ol' Canadian boy who was a meat-and-potatoes style captain for a team that was winning cups. It was a perfect story- Crosby had the stats, but Toews was a "winner", and it let certain segments of the hockey watching population feel good about themselves because they were looking at something other than points. People who didn't agree were just uneducated about the finer parts of the game.

Well, I'm not going to change your mind...
 

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@rmartin65

Feel free to say what you'd like but I'll make my overviews on this series in time.

There numerous contexts that aren't being outlined. It's why I can't stand these straight line VsX vs VsX as some sort of judge and jury over offensive superiority.

VsX is a nice generality but it's not the holy grail.
 

rmartin65

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There's a difference between... "who had the best season?" and "who do you think is the best player?"
That is a fair point.



Well, I'm not going to change your mind...

I have changed my opinions on players a lot here over the years, and I don't see why I wouldn't here if presented with convincing proof/evidence.

I will admit that Toews- having been a player I have watched (admittedly not particularly closely)- is a player that I don't appreciate as much as other people do. But, that is the nature of people having individual opinions and not falling into group-think. Everyone is going to have players that they are higher or lower on.
 

rmartin65

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@rmartin65

Feel free to say what you'd like but I'll make my overviews on this series in time.

There numerous contexts that aren't being outlined. It's why I can't stand these straight line VsX vs VsX as some sort of judge and jury over offensive superiority.

VsX is a nice generality but it's not the holy grail.

You do you, IE, I certainly wasn't trying to speak for you or on your behalf- I know you are quite capable of handling yourself in these series, haha.

And I know I have been (and likely will be in the future) of relying a bit too much on VsX.
 
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Dreakmur

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@rmartin65

Feel free to say what you'd like but I'll make my overviews on this series in time.

There numerous contexts that aren't being outlined. It's why I can't stand these straight line VsX vs VsX as some sort of judge and jury over offensive superiority.

VsX is a nice generality but it's not the holy grail.

Context comes next. There's a reason I always start with the numbers and expand from there.
 
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Dreakmur

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I will admit that Toews- having been a player I have watched (admittedly not particularly closely)- is a player that I don't appreciate as much as other people do. But, that is the nature of people having individual opinions and not falling into group-think. Everyone is going to have players that they are higher or lower on.

The even strength scoring is easy to demonstrate - the numbers are what they are. The other stuff is not really something that can be explained... and I may not even be right.

I think he's elite defensively. I think he's elite as a forechecker and backchecker. I think he's elite in the dirty area battles. I think he's elite on face-offs. I think he's elite as a leader. How do I convince somebody who doesn't watch him any of that?
 
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Dreakmur

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Ok, I looked up Lennart Svedberg's scoring finishes...

Here is where he ranked among Defensemen in the Swedish league:
Points - 1st(1964), 1st(1968), 1st(1971), 1st(1972), 2nd(1967), 3rd(1965), 3rd(1970), 4th(1969)
1962 has incomplete assist records, Svedberg was 2nd in goals
1963 has incomplete assist record, Svedberg was 8th in goals.
1966 he played in division 2, which was not the top Swedish league


World Championships:
5th(1965), 5th(1970)

Olympics:
11th(1964)

It appears that he was a consistent offensive producer in the Swedish league, but never really scored internationally. That's very surprising, since he has a pretty impressive IIHF all-star record....

Maybe he was better defensively than we thought? He sure doesn't look like the offensive dynamo I thought he was.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Northcott is a good physical defensive power forward. I like him as a glue-guy. I'm not too worried that he will slow down Gordie Howe.



Abel to Toews isn't much of a drop, if any. If yo do nothing but the vs.x formula, Abel comes away ES score of 85.7. How do you account for Howe as his linemate? Well, I just use Howe as the benchmark if he was above the normal benchmark for that year. If you benefit from playing with a player, you shouldn't also benefit from what he does to the formula. Once you do that math, Abel comes away with a 77.7, which makes him essentially equal to Toews' 78.9.

Lindsey is much better than Prentice, there's no arguing that -- 91.7 to 76.6.

I'll keep this brief because it's abount my team and neither of these. But you also have to realize that Abel missed a good number of prime years due to WW2. IMO, the points he lost due to missed time for the war and the points he gained by playing with Howe likely come close to evening out. So I think Abel's 7 year VsX score should be taken at more or less face value (unlike most stars who lost prime years due to WW2 who should get some kind of break). Not really much to do with Howe, because Abel was obviously "playing with Howe" when he played with Howe, which is what this series has to do with.
 
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ImporterExporter

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Anyway, Sid Abel isn't in this series, so lets start with the actual line comparisons....

Even Strength Scoring:
Gordie Howe - 121.6

Cylcone Taylor - 107.6 (just using his regular vs.x)

Anatoli Firsov - 90.0 (total guess)
Valeri Kharkamov - 90.0 (total guess)
Vladimir Petrov - 90.0 (total guess)
Bernie Morris - 85.9 (just using his regular vs.x)

Jonathan Toews - 78.9
Dean Prentice - 76.6
Dave Keon - 73.0
Ziggy Palffy - 72.9
Konstantine Loktev - 70.0 (total guess)

Baldy Northcott - 67.9 (2 seasons regular vs.x and 5 seasons of ES)

Orillia Total - 526
Saskatoon Total - 498.4


Defensive Ability:
Elite - Dave Keon, Jonathan Toews

Very Good - Baldy Northcott, Anatoli Firsov

Good - Gordie Howe, Dean Prentice, Konstantine Loktev

Better than Average - Cyclone Taylor, Valeri Kharlamov

Non-Factor - Bernie Morris, Ziggy Palffy

Bad - Vladimir Petrov


1. Why are we just looking at even strength scoring?

2. This tries to inflate Toews, Prentice and Keon while degrading superior offensive players such as Palffy. The Orillia trio bring little to nothing on the PP which is part of offensive value. Palffy has value on the PP. Northcott's VsX greatly underrates him as he'll be gobbling up as much time on the 1st PP unit as possible, as a very strong slot presence. Couple that with Taylor, Kharlamov, Hod Stuart and Svedberg and you have a very deadly PP. And I find Orillia's PK defensemen quite weak. Very strong PK forwards but the overall package can't compete with the PP for the Snipers.

3. Naturally ignoring the chemistry of the 2nd line of Saskatoon. Real life LW-C combo with a fellow Soviet @ RW (Loktev) who is about as good a fit for Kharlamov-Petrov as you could have hoped for at that point of the draft. Then factor in Tarasov's connection to all 3 and I think the very generalized VsX's (some total guesses) aren't really that telling IMO.

3. We'll get to the defense of Orillia as well. It wasn't exposed properly last round.
 

Dreakmur

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1. Why are we just looking at even strength scoring?

I am comparing what each line will do at even strength.

2. This tries to inflate Toews, Prentice and Keon while degrading superior offensive players such as Palffy.

This tries to better demonstrate what each player will truly contribute at even strength. None of Toews, Prentice, nor Keon will play on the PP, so why would we include their performance there?

Dave Keon is not helped by using this method - his vs.x is higher than his ES vs.x.

The Orillia trio bring little to nothing on the PP which is part of offensive value.

If they were playing on the PP, sure, I would agree.

I'm breaking it up specifically because of this. It's not simply Palffy vs. Prentice - it's Palffy vs. Prentice at ES and Palffy vs. Camille Henry on the PP.

Palffy has value on the PP.

Yes he does. I don't think that matters when evaluating even strength.

Northcott's VsX greatly underrates him as he'll be gobbling up as much time on the 1st PP unit as possible, as a very strong slot presence.

Northcott never landed in the top-10 in PP goals. He's not a serious PP threat.

Couple that with Taylor, Kharlamov, Hod Stuart and Svedberg and you have a very deadly PP.

As mentioned earlier, I'm not sure Svedberg brings the offensive ability we thought he did.

Taylor and Kharlamov are good 1st PP weapons. Stuart is a solid point man.

And I find Orillia's PK defensemen quite weak.

That's probably fair.

3. Naturally ignoring the chemistry of the 2nd line of Saskatoon. Real life LW-C combo with a fellow Soviet @ RW (Loktev) who is about as good a fit for Kharlamov-Petrov as you could have hoped for at that point of the draft. Then factor in Tarasov's connection to all 3 and I think the very generalized VsX's (some total guesses) aren't really that telling IMO.

That means they will perform just like they did in real life, right? Them being familiar with each other doesn't make them all better, does it?

3. We'll get to the defense of Orillia as well. It wasn't exposed properly last round.

Honestly, I avoided serious discussion about my blue line last series. I thought I was at a significant disadvantage there.

This series, though, I would welcome an in depth discussion, and I will be doing that tomorrow.
 
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Oblivion Express
Gordie Howe's got a lot more help here than Cyclone Taylor. Northcott and Palffy might be the two weakest ES scorers in either top-6.



So you're going to use Cyclone Taylor and Vladimir Petrov to check Dave Keon and Jonathan Toews? Seems like an excellent way for you to eliminate your best two scoring threats for me.



I agree that most SC winners have good two-way play down the middle, which is exactly why I took Keon and Toews instead of some offensive centers.

Though, if I'm honest, I would have take Bill Cowley instead of Keon if I knew Toews would be available later.



Harry Howell is a nice defensive defenseman. I don't see Schoenfeld or St. Laurent handling any first unit well, let alone one that has Howe.



It's never easy.

There's no way that you're going to convince me that Prentice and Toews are better offensive players than Northcott/Palffy. Just isn't a reality. I watched Palffy play. His offensive acuity is far above either Prentice or Toews. If you're just going to throw the elite tab across the board on Toews then I can just start inflating my players arbitrarily. First off, Toews isn't elite defensively, not in the ATD. Bergeron is elite defensively. Datsyuk. Toews has 1 Selke and a handful of other finalist nods. Where's he been the last few years now that Chicago turned into a dumpster fire? (in part because they paid a player like Toews 10 million). Not anywhere in the running for Selke.

Back to Palffy:

One, he didn't get to play on a near dynasty like Toews. That impacts offensive statistics. Palffy played on a lot of very crappy teams and still was miles better an offensive threat than a Toews. I'm sorry if that's blunt, but it really is the hard truth.

Two, he played his career through one of the lowest scoring periods in hockey history and routinely put up 80+ point seasons. Didn't matter he was playing on largely garbage teams. Palffy is a perfect example of VsX being a nice generality but treating it as gospel leads you to generality.

Howe can't do everything himself. Period. He's downgraded SIGNIFICANTLY in terms of talent and offensive ability around him. I just don't see how anyone doesn't get there looking at Lindsay, Abel and let's not forget RED KELLY. Sorry but Drew Doughty isn't Red Kelly. They are night and day offensively speaking.

Not sure what you're talking about Petrov and Taylor checking Toews and Keon.

Taylor is significantly better than Toews all time
Northcott is a clear step above Prentice
Howe is miles better than Palffy obviously
Pitt wins 2-1 IMO

I think both lines are great fits. Both have elite offensive players (Howe and Taylor), both have very strong defensive players (Northcott and Toews) and I'll take Pallfy all day over Prentice.

Saskatoon's top line is simply more balanced. We don't have all of the offensive eggs in one basket so to speak.

I was simply pointing out that Howe is going to be checked mostly by above average to great defensive wingers, who were also extremely physical as well as running into all of Saskatoon's strongest dmen in terms of defensive awareness, physicality and ability.
 

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