Remembering When II - We Had a Players Coach & Team Toughness

Martin Skoula

Registered User
Oct 18, 2017
11,639
16,315
It's easy to pretend that toughness, grit, and intimidation doesn't exist in hockey...

Sitting behind your keyboard and all :laugh:

I'd love a guy like Wilson or Tkachuk, it's obvious the value they add and the space they open up. Colton Orr is not Wilson or Tkachuk, nobody cares that he's on the ice other than the other guy making 700k who's gonna fight him off a faceoff.
 

rojac

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Apr 5, 2007
12,951
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You know, if you truly believe the Leafs aren’t going to be the type of team you like, change to cheering for a team of that type. That way you can enjoy hockey again and don't need to whine on the Internet. And if the Leafs become the type of team you like again, you can always switch back.

Of course, it’s possible that you’re not really unhappy with the Leafs, but just like whining on the Internet.
 
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Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,021
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Burlington
You know, if you truly believe the Leafs aren’t going to be the type of team you like, change to cheering for a team of that type. That way you can enjoy hockey again and don't need to whine on the Internet. And if the Leafs become the type of team you like again, you can always switch back.

Of course, it’s possible that you’re not really unhappy with the Leafs, but just like whining on the Internet.

"If the Leafs aren't playing the way you like you need to stop following them, unless of course they do, and then you may resume following them"

Are you actually serious? :laugh:
 

Havoc

Registered User
Jul 25, 2009
7,271
7,483
"If the Leafs aren't playing the way you like you need to stop following them, unless of course they do, and then you may resume following them"

Are you actually serious? :laugh:

acquire reading comprehension. that's not what he said.
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,021
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Burlington
acquire reading comprehension. that's not what he said.

It's exactly what he said.

How is it any different?

May as well have said "If you don't like what your politicians are doing, you need to leave the country...unless they start doing what you like....then you can come back."

Are you going argue yourself into a circle on this as well?
 
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deletethis

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Mar 17, 2015
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Toronto
I can't even get in the head of hockey player who doesn't react to his teammate, let alone star teammate, getting manhandled. At the very least, I expect to see the team get more competitive, more intense, show more desire to win that particular game. That base reaction is what is missing above and beyond a lineup mostly bereft of grit and snarl. Mats Sundin is a perfect example of what I'm talking about: often a gentle giant but if you took a run at him or one of his teammates his intensity level and competitiveness went to 10. Hence most teams just left him alone.

I think the nearly extinct fighting specialists still get brought up because historically that's the type of addition a team this soft and unresponsive needed to at least survive on those certain nights.
 

Deuce Awesome

Registered User
Feb 23, 2010
2,456
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Leaf fans were never happy! This is fake news!

I was, during the time of this clip. I was young, 14 or so, so as a kid I grew up with some crap Leaf teams that sucked. Clark was the only player worth watching in those days.

Then Fletcher came in, got Gilmour, Andreychuk, Fuhr....Burns as a coach.

We had a defence core that made opposing player scared to go to the net.

We had a top 6 that was all of a sudden in the top of the league.

This all happened pretty well overnight. If it wasn't for Kerry Fraser we would have won the cup.

Ive seen all the teams since, and I know the Sundin era is looked at with nostalgia, it wasn't near as good. Very much like now, we had no defense, and only won if our goalie won the game for us.

It seems to me that we are very close to being a contender now, if we got a Burns esque coach, and traded off one or two of the high powered offence for some stay at home D and some third and fourth liners that punish rather than score.

Won't happen with Glasses in charge though.
 
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rojac

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It's exactly what he said.

How is it any different?

May as well have said "If you don't like what your politicians are doing, you need to leave the country...unless they start doing what you like....then you can come back."

Are you going yourself into a circle on this as well?

There is a very big difference between changing what sports team you cheer for and moving to another country.
 

hector morrison

Registered User
Apr 1, 2018
4,792
1,998
I can't even get in the head of hockey player who doesn't react to his teammate, let alone star teammate, getting manhandled. At the very least, I expect to see the team get more competitive, more intense, show more desire to win that particular game. That base reaction is what is missing above and beyond a lineup mostly bereft of grit and snarl. Mats Sundin is a perfect example of what I'm talking about: often a gentle giant but if you took a run at him or one of his teammates his intensity level and competitiveness went to 10. Hence most teams just left him alone.

I think the nearly extinct fighting specialists still get brought up because historically that's the type of addition a team this soft and unresponsive needed to at least survive on those certain nights.
I don't think it's the players idea...I think it's Babs idea. Walk away,don't get the instigator,or unnecessary 3rd man in penalty. They are relying on the Refs to call indiscretions ,but that hasn't worked so well since Babs has been there. So,after failing for 4 years,maybe try some other tactic...maybe?
 

Trapper

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Nov 21, 2013
23,736
11,002
This is a poetic waxing back to an era when a team was a team... all the way through the organization.

The late Pat Burns, one of my favourite coaches of all time, was eventually chased out of Leaf Nation... as things tend to go. But while he was here... the 92-93 and 93-94 Leafs were ... forgettaboutit.

Pat Burns was famously remembered for going after Barry Melrose between the benches in the 92-93 playoff series vs LA Kings.

But that mentality didn't just emerge in that incident. It was part of his entire tenure in Toronto, before and after.

Here's a great clip of what a team does when someone they care about was targeted. A hit on Gilmour. A response by the entire freakin' team.

And at the 1:13 mark of the video... watch Burns.



The current $oft $quad. The current, "I don't buy physicality GM." The current "all about me" Coach... friggin' learn from the past and conduct yourselves with the honour that is being a Leaf.

F' me. I need a beer.

You are making me sad Pookie.
It’s like how I love the original Star Wars trilogy but now Disney took over the product and those days are gone.
 
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Pookie

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You are making me sad Pookie.
It’s like how I love the original Star Wars trilogy but now Disney took over the product and those days are gone.

Sorry dude.

Our only hope is that maybe Revenge of the Nerds is non-fiction.
 

KuleminFan41

Registered User
Jan 5, 2009
5,845
614
How is this a relevant take? What does that 'tough team' have to do with a 3rd period collapse in a game 7? I saw it...did you? They didn't lose in the final 10 minutes of a 7 game series because they were a tough team.
Would you say that St.Louis finessed their way to the Stanley Cup or how about Washington. a good balance of skilled players who can handle the rough patches and guys who know how to dish it out is usually a good team. The Leafs don't have that at the moment.
Certain styles don't really work anymore and people wanting the Leafs to be the big bad Leafs of old, need to get over it. The NHL has changed and is continually changing away from that style and you don't want to be someone like the Kings who are having trouble adapting. Say what you will about how "soft" the Leafs are, but this past May they were in much better shape and played better in that series in comparison to the previous 2, even if the outcome ended up being the same. My point is that in this NHL, if you're skilled enough, you can play around "toughness" and "grittiness" because if you move the puck fast enough, the opposing team isn't going to hem you in your zone. This romanticizing of the past, and how "tough" players and teams used to be is rather silly to me. Most teams don't play that heavy and slow anymore because of how fast the game has gotten, keep up or lose
 

AreBe

This is the Real Are Be and not a Burner account!
Apr 1, 2013
880
313
Confidence and give a crap. Things that can’t be measured with a ratio.

Totally understand why these concepts are elusive.

Brilliant point, but nonetheless we are in the Golden Age of Leafs management- I cannot recall management having a methodology- analytics - and a theory based on math applied to the team before. We have an analytics department. Just consider that- an actual stats division in management! Rejoice. It is unbelievable that people honestly have a problem with math based decision making. But they do. And they see penalty box sitting capacity as a postive. These people must have rejoiced when Marner was sent to the box in overtime so that some damn Euro on Washington could predicatably score against us.

Yeah, I do remember the Burke era, wasn't too long ago. Not a fun time.

Burky! Burky! Burky! Oh how fondly Moron Man remembers trading 2 consecutive first round picks! Always goes well. Good old school thinker.

I despised fans calling Mr. Burke - who commands, rightfully, considerable respect- Burky. It really, really grated me.Some people are invited to call me by my nickname, others by my first and some by my last. I am not him and it is not my battle, but jeez! Have some respect!

With my zero milliseconds of experience in hockey management, I pronounce as follows: the salary cap era mandates the use of analytics, and as a consequence, immeasurable information, (is it information if it cannot be measured?) is excluded from the decision making process, so giving a damn and confidence levels are reduced to gut feels, which means moving off of facts, which means you are being an idiot.

Moron Man knows that you wait for guys to win cups elsewhere and then you overpay them to come here with thier torn ACLs and reward them for cups won a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Enlightened fans conversely know that you pay your players for what they will be and not for what they were. And for that you need some heavy duty math as you toss your dart tosses to get figures to fill in the blanks in the algorithm.

Moron Man wants to be rid of at least one perhaps 2 of Nylander (has to go! Damn European- take your skill some place else where they appreciate modern hockey! We dinosaurs don't need your stupid fancy skating and passing and commitment to fundamentals!) Marner and Matthews. Get some good grinders- guys who know how to get into that penalty box and just sit there while the other team enjoys the strategic advantage!

"MAn! Imagine if we traded some of this skill for a bunch of 4th line grinders that we could put on every line! And a really tough 3rd and 4th line! Why restrict 4th liners to the 4th line? Just imagine: The Box Brothers! Such a great tag line! Fans would love it! A bunch of players who can reliably take a penalty. Imagine what the other teams will think when they see our Box Brothers on the ice! Good Canadian kids who play the game in accordance with the Code of the Gladiators! The Box Brothers! Love it! Imagine in the playoffs, the Leafs are up by 3 goals heading into the third, and have things well in hand, playing an American based team, and then the Box Brothers take to the ice! Bam, just like that- we got the makings of an extincting finish! Ah! That's why I love the American Association of US Ice Hockey Teams! And the Leafs can rely on always getting the call that helps them lead in penalty minutes, so that the AAUSIHT can get its fat US TV deal," Moron Man enthusiastically proclaimed as he grabbed the brim of his ball-cap, smiled a self satisfied smile, garbed another suicide flavored chicken bone, had a sip of his domestic swill, wiped his hands in his track pants, looked down on his running shoes that have never seen the inside of a gym, and said, "Stupid Dubass would not agree with me! Stupid Dubass thinks the Box Brothers are a detriment!"

Once again, I was startled by my concordance with Moron Man on 2 points. Firstly, it is true, the Box Brothers would make a playoff game that was well on the way to victory and convert it into an exciting finish, and secondly, there is no way Dubass would see plus side of the Box Brothers and their plan to give the other team the advantage.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,212
9,189
Certain styles don't really work anymore and people wanting the Leafs to be the big bad Leafs of old, need to get over it. The NHL has changed and is continually changing away from that style and you don't want to be someone like the Kings who are having trouble adapting. Say what you will about how "soft" the Leafs are, but this past May they were in much better shape and played better in that series in comparison to the previous 2, even if the outcome ended up being the same. My point is that in this NHL, if you're skilled enough, you can play around "toughness" and "grittiness" because if you move the puck fast enough, the opposing team isn't going to hem you in your zone. This romanticizing of the past, and how "tough" players and teams used to be is rather silly to me. Most teams don't play that heavy and slow anymore because of how fast the game has gotten, keep up or lose

thank you.
like. i point out what the problems were, and why we lost, and it's still. "but they weren't tough."
 

BrannigansLaw

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Sep 3, 2006
11,201
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Loved the Quinn runs, those teams had so much push back and heart. They would wipe our current group out despite having only half the natural talent. The way we used to play then shows some semblance with the current style the Bruins play. Obviously, those teams aren't anywhere near as good them, but we were tough team to play against. Remember when we used to be called the Bay Street Bullies? Burke era was a steaming pile of garbage though.

This current group is just embarrassing when it comes to sticking up for each other and showing some backbone in tight, pressure situations. Like really f***ing embarrassing.
 
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Pookie

Wear a mask
Oct 23, 2013
16,172
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Brilliant point, but nonetheless we are in the Golden Age of Leafs management- I cannot recall management having a methodology- analytics - and a theory based on math applied to the team before. We have an analytics department. Just consider that- an actual stats division in management! Rejoice. It is unbelievable that people honestly have a problem with math based decision making. But they do. And they see penalty box sitting capacity as a postive. These people must have rejoiced when Marner was sent to the box in overtime so that some damn Euro on Washington could predicatably score against us.



Burky! Burky! Burky! Oh how fondly Moron Man remembers trading 2 consecutive first round picks! Always goes well. Good old school thinker.

I despised fans calling Mr. Burke - who commands, rightfully, considerable respect- Burky. It really, really grated me.Some people are invited to call me by my nickname, others by my first and some by my last. I am not him and it is not my battle, but jeez! Have some respect!

With my zero milliseconds of experience in hockey management, I pronounce as follows: the salary cap era mandates the use of analytics, and as a consequence, immeasurable information, (is it information if it cannot be measured?) is excluded from the decision making process, so giving a damn and confidence levels are reduced to gut feels, which means moving off of facts, which means you are being an idiot.

Moron Man knows that you wait for guys to win cups elsewhere and then you overpay them to come here with thier torn ACLs and reward them for cups won a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Enlightened fans conversely know that you pay your players for what they will be and not for what they were. And for that you need some heavy duty math as you toss your dart tosses to get figures to fill in the blanks in the algorithm.

Moron Man wants to be rid of at least one perhaps 2 of Nylander (has to go! Damn European- take your skill some place else where they appreciate modern hockey! We dinosaurs don't need your stupid fancy skating and passing and commitment to fundamentals!) Marner and Matthews. Get some good grinders- guys who know how to get into that penalty box and just sit there while the other team enjoys the strategic advantage!

"MAn! Imagine if we traded some of this skill for a bunch of 4th line grinders that we could put on every line! And a really tough 3rd and 4th line! Why restrict 4th liners to the 4th line? Just imagine: The Box Brothers! Such a great tag line! Fans would love it! A bunch of players who can reliably take a penalty. Imagine what the other teams will think when they see our Box Brothers on the ice! Good Canadian kids who play the game in accordance with the Code of the Gladiators! The Box Brothers! Love it! Imagine in the playoffs, the Leafs are up by 3 goals heading into the third, and have things well in hand, playing an American based team, and then the Box Brothers take to the ice! Bam, just like that- we got the makings of an extincting finish! Ah! That's why I love the American Association of US Ice Hockey Teams! And the Leafs can rely on always getting the call that helps them lead in penalty minutes, so that the AAUSIHT can get its fat US TV deal," Moron Man enthusiastically proclaimed as he grabbed the brim of his ball-cap, smiled a self satisfied smile, garbed another suicide flavored chicken bone, had a sip of his domestic swill, wiped his hands in his track pants, looked down on his running shoes that have never seen the inside of a gym, and said, "Stupid Dubass would not agree with me! Stupid Dubass thinks the Box Brothers are a detriment!"

Once again, I was startled by my concordance with Moron Man on 2 points. Firstly, it is true, the Box Brothers would make a playoff game that was well on the way to victory and convert it into an exciting finish, and secondly, there is no way Dubass would see plus side of the Box Brothers and their plan to give the other team the advantage.

It’s not simply a question of embracing math or not.

A math person would know that the math has to actually be statistically significant for it to matter.

I totally embrace data as it relates to individual player health and peak performance. Moving on from contracts before a player declines in either category... even if it is unpopular... is the single most important thing a GM can do.

This Corsi ratio stuff is junk in terms of meaningful impact. That’s not opinion. Or the eye test speaking. That’s the reliability metrics that the stats provide.
 
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Pookie

Wear a mask
Oct 23, 2013
16,172
6,684
Certain styles don't really work anymore and people wanting the Leafs to be the big bad Leafs of old, need to get over it. The NHL has changed and is continually changing away from that style and you don't want to be someone like the Kings who are having trouble adapting. Say what you will about how "soft" the Leafs are, but this past May they were in much better shape and played better in that series in comparison to the previous 2, even if the outcome ended up being the same. My point is that in this NHL, if you're skilled enough, you can play around "toughness" and "grittiness" because if you move the puck fast enough, the opposing team isn't going to hem you in your zone. This romanticizing of the past, and how "tough" players and teams used to be is rather silly to me. Most teams don't play that heavy and slow anymore because of how fast the game has gotten, keep up or lose

Puzzling.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The game has changed. Tonight’s speaker has the blueprint.

In the last 70 games, his team has amassed a .500 record. Something only about 23 other teams are better at. And that’s not all. His team has not one, not two but 3 first round playoff experiences. No second rounds yet but he is clearly on the cusp of greatness.

Please put your hands together and welcome our expert who can show you how you too can build a mediocre, arguably underperforming hockey team.

Kyle Dubas every one. Kyle Dubas
 

Pookie

Wear a mask
Oct 23, 2013
16,172
6,684
Certain styles don't really work anymore and people wanting the Leafs to be the big bad Leafs of old, need to get over it. The NHL has changed and is continually changing away from that style and you don't want to be someone like the Kings who are having trouble adapting. Say what you will about how "soft" the Leafs are, but this past May they were in much better shape and played better in that series in comparison to the previous 2, even if the outcome ended up being the same. My point is that in this NHL, if you're skilled enough, you can play around "toughness" and "grittiness" because if you move the puck fast enough, the opposing team isn't going to hem you in your zone. This romanticizing of the past, and how "tough" players and teams used to be is rather silly to me. Most teams don't play that heavy and slow anymore because of how fast the game has gotten, keep up or lose

Well... here’s the “changed NHL” from last night.



I think the only place where sticking up for a teammate has changed... is here.

This has an unarguable impact on team chemistry and confidence.
 
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Canadian Finn

Oskee Wee Wee
Feb 21, 2014
4,957
4,333
The Hammer
Certain styles don't really work anymore and people wanting the Leafs to be the big bad Leafs of old, need to get over it. The NHL has changed and is continually changing away from that style and you don't want to be someone like the Kings who are having trouble adapting. Say what you will about how "soft" the Leafs are, but this past May they were in much better shape and played better in that series in comparison to the previous 2, even if the outcome ended up being the same. My point is that in this NHL, if you're skilled enough, you can play around "toughness" and "grittiness" because if you move the puck fast enough, the opposing team isn't going to hem you in your zone. This romanticizing of the past, and how "tough" players and teams used to be is rather silly to me. Most teams don't play that heavy and slow anymore because of how fast the game has gotten, keep up or lose

if the above was only remotely accurate.

lots of learning going to be happening this year.

I think this year is going to help develop our young fanbase.
 

fahad203

Registered User
Oct 3, 2009
36,023
18,847
Chara played 4 years against Pat Quinns team. Guys like Tucker used to run him to the boards and he did shit
Only time he fought McCabe but otherwise he didn't do much against the Leafs

You know why...? as much as he was afraid of the players, he was afraid of Quinn

Quinn would have never let his team get pushed around. That man had pride to every vein. Yes perhaps that was his fall out that he was too old school

I totally understand the need for skill. Some will argue we don't need enforcer. Nobody needs enforcer but you can still play tough
Playing tough is a choice. Simple as a that. Especially for a team that has speed. We start forechecking and laying out the hits, what response can other team have? none

We just choose not to be tough
 

JJ68

Registered User
Oct 5, 2017
1,310
1,102
Yeah, I do remember the Burke era, wasn't too long ago. Not a fun time.


well then how about a team coached by Quinn that had Domi, Tucker, Green, Corson, Belak, McCabe, Roberts, Nolan etc etc....and actually managed to do something in the playoffs.
 
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