Releasing the Kraken on Dale Tallon

iam76

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Sep 30, 2011
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meh i say keep tallon... i like the moves.. don't always love the drafts but hey hes drafted better than anyone else we have had... i just hope we dont trade the young kids for something bad.... I am hoping we unload at the trade deadline and play the kids.
 

EnforceTheLaus

In the Year of Our Hatter
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Another point that hasn't been brought up (this season)
Our medical/training staff worries me
Last year we had most of our players playing hurt and getting more serious injuries
Did we see that happen to TThomas this year?
He pulled his groin and then was back on the ice a week later, I would have liked to see him come back a little more healthy, who knows he might have stayed healthy.

Just my opinion, nothing really concrete to back that up.

Last year was a lockout. Med staff et all could not be in contact with players. Coming to camp in shape was on them. Most of the guys were out of shape last year.

I'm happy with the conditioning this year. Only non-contact injury was Thomas. He took a year off and at his age it is no surprise his body can't keep up.
 

zeroG

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I disagree with this a lot, both now and back then. Everyone at the time said we overpaid for the guys we signed...mostly because of the term, not just salary. Guys were signed for too long because Tallon thought he was saving money by doing so. But I think its pretty obvious that Tallon was hit & miss on evaluating the actual talent too. So that evaluation actually has ended up costing more money in the long run.

Now if we look back at 2011, there were plenty of UFAs that signed for less than 3 yrs, guys that had similar or better reputations to what we signed. Instead of signing Jovo for his leadership for 4 yrs, could've signed Roman Hamrlik for the same thing for 2 yrs (not a big upgrade but produced the same amount their 1st yr and then we actually we would've been free from that deal anyway in the 2nd yr when he was waived) and not stuck with an injury prone player for the last 2 yrs. Another guy we could've had for less yrs was Kaberle (3 yrs @ 4.25M/yr so same price as Jovo) and while he didnt work in Carolina, at least they traded him pretty quickly and got out from under that contract. Instead of sigining Upshall who was injury prone and only had one proven yr, he could've signed Michael Ryder to a 2 yr deal (same price too) and he was a more proven goalscorer. Heck sign Raffi Torres for 3 yrs instead of 4 and at least get more consistent play. There were plenty of guys too that would've signed for 1 yr instead of signing Matt Bradley for 2 yrs and having to buy him out (Konopka, Carcillo, re-sign Dvorak, Glass).

the only guy i think we could've had is hamrlik. there's no way ryder would sign here, nor torres. even kaberle obviously had better options. why would anyone with the chance to play on a more competitive or even contending team chose to play in FL? they wouldn't/don't. that's why we have the cast of characters we have.
 

CoolburnIsGone

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the only guy i think we could've had is hamrlik. there's no way ryder would sign here, nor torres. even kaberle obviously had better options. why would anyone with the chance to play on a more competitive or even contending team chose to play in FL? they wouldn't/don't. that's why we have the cast of characters we have.
I disagree with you on Ryder for sure. He signed with Dallas that yr who were not a contending team (missed the playoffs in 2011) and after they were losing Brad Richards to free agency, they were not a playoff team. Kaberle also was going to a non-playoff team too in Carolina. Both places werent "hockey hotbeds" either that you cant use the excuse of us being in a non-traditional market.

These guys would've signed here because they would be given a lot of mins since Tallon cleaned house and those spots in the top 6/top 4 had to be filled. Plus all the guys knew that we had to spend money to reach the cap floor so they could easily get more from us than other teams. Both things would mean that these players would be able to come down here, play for a yr or 2 and even if they didnt win here, it gave them a chance to earn more money on their next contract, due to inflated stats, and the possibility of being traded within 1.5 yrs to a contending team if the Panthers struggled. There really was almost zero downside for them...only issue would be the fear of injury during that time, but none of the guys I mentioned were really injury prone like the guys we did end up signing.
 

zeroG

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I disagree with you on Ryder for sure. He signed with Dallas that yr who were not a contending team (missed the playoffs in 2011) and after they were losing Brad Richards to free agency, they were not a playoff team. Kaberle also was going to a non-playoff team too in Carolina. Both places werent "hockey hotbeds" either that you cant use the excuse of us being in a non-traditional market.

These guys would've signed here because they would be given a lot of mins since Tallon cleaned house and those spots in the top 6/top 4 had to be filled. Plus all the guys knew that we had to spend money to reach the cap floor so they could easily get more from us than other teams. Both things would mean that these players would be able to come down here, play for a yr or 2 and even if they didnt win here, it gave them a chance to earn more money on their next contract, due to inflated stats, and the possibility of being traded within 1.5 yrs to a contending team if the Panthers struggled. There really was almost zero downside for them...only issue would be the fear of injury during that time, but none of the guys I mentioned were really injury prone like the guys we did end up signing.

neither of those teams are traditional markets and neither may have made the playoffs that year or the year before but you know what? neither stay down for that long either. they're both well run and both pretty consistently in the playoffs. which leads to the second point regarding playing time... i'm sure some guys will be drawn to these types of situations against their better interests but i do think the smarter players recognize that these situations are generally not good. look at versteeg, for example (tho he came via trade) - if it were generally true that those marginal top 6 guys would reliably produce more when given more time, what happened there? outside of a brief 2 month period where he collected most of his points 2 years ago, he's struggled mightily and now has become the fans' whipping boy. why? he's playing more minutes but with a lesser supporting cast.
 

ucanthanzalthetruth

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neither of those teams are traditional markets and neither may have made the playoffs that year or the year before but you know what? neither stay down for that long either. they're both well run and both pretty consistently in the playoffs. which leads to the second point regarding playing time... i'm sure some guys will be drawn to these types of situations against their better interests but i do think the smarter players recognize that these situations are generally not good. look at versteeg, for example (tho he came via trade) - if it were generally true that those marginal top 6 guys would reliably produce more when given more time, what happened there? outside of a brief 2 month period where he collected most of his points 2 years ago, he's struggled mightily and now has become the fans' whipping boy. why? he's playing more minutes but with a lesser supporting cast.

1. Dallas is likely to miss the playoffs for a 6th consecutive season, and the Canes have made the playoffs twice in the previous 9 seasons (assuming they miss this year), so I wouldn't exactly say they are well run and don't stay down for long

2. I (at least this is the case for me) use Steeg as the whipping boy because he doesn't back check or seem to care at all, and is a turnover machine, it has nothing to do with his production
 

CHGoalie27

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I'm sorry but Tallon brings guys, who in theory would work, then Dineen does what HE thinks he should do and ruins ****.

Wanna bring up Kovalev again? Cool. Lemme remind you how he was given no PP time, then expected to bust his ass on the checking line??? That's just ****ing stupid.

Only thing I hold against Tallon is letting Brennan go.

He was stuck with not being able to trade Garrison because we needed him for the playoffs that year, and anyone with a fair opinion couldn't possibly expect any different.

There's plenty of options many poster have brought up that sound like decent options at least that just aren't tried or given more than a couple shifts...
 

CoolburnIsGone

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I'm sorry but Tallon brings guys, who in theory would work, then Dineen does what HE thinks he should do and ruins ****.

Wanna bring up Kovalev again? Cool. Lemme remind you how he was given no PP time, then expected to bust his ass on the checking line??? That's just ****ing stupid.
Dude only you are defending Kovalev. You may want to double-check your facts because Kovalev was given the most PP time out of all the forwards on the roster (averaging 3 mins/game). Now THAT (giving him 3 mins of PP icetime) was really what was ****ing stupid of Dineen. Kovalev was lazy and useless (as everyone warned us about) even when he had the puck. Sorry the guy was past his prime and shouldnt have been signed, another bad evaluation by Tallon for signing him. You can be Kovalev's fanboy all you want but reality says a much different story. Guys not willing to play defense should have no place on this team now or ever if you ask me.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....ort=avgPowerPlayTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce
 
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CHGoalie27

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Dude only you are defending Kovalev. You may want to double-check your facts because Kovalev was given the most PP time out of all the forwards on the roster (averaging 3 mins/game). Now THAT (giving him 3 mins of PP icetime) was really what was ****ing stupid of Dineen. Kovalev was lazy and useless (as everyone warned us about) even when he had the puck. Sorry the guy was past his prime and shouldnt have been signed, another bad evaluation by Tallon for signing him. You can be Kovalev's fanboy all you want but reality says a much different story. Guys not willing to play defense should have no place on this team now or ever if you ask me.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....ort=avgPowerPlayTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce

Dammit, you're one of my fav posters. Fanboy indeed- his biggest.

Facts? lol stats aren't solid facts as most people know...

I remember watching those games, and as usual the stats aren't quite as telling as you might think.

Major difference between a bummed knee and laziness. It's not a willing thing. You're wrong there. He still had the hands, which were utilized completely improperly.

It was stupid to play him during anything but the PP, which again had no structure, no cycling(ppl for him to pass around to, nor did he get passes back at appropriate times), no screens...

I remember what I was *****ing about, and will for the rest of me life.

You're wrong, and I'd love to have a couple 12 ozs. and rewatch the games with you if ever we had the opportunity to prove it. Though unlikely and much more worth my time LMAO~!

HockeyRulez-it's serious to me my man!
 

Jeff Shafer

Established: 1987
I hope they blow the majority of the team up, including firing KD, as I've never been impressed with his style. If we want a fiery guy there with better qualifications (Lindy Ruff cough cough) is a phone call away.

Tallon has hit and missed in his tenure with the club, but he's been the best GM we've ever had so.... I think he'll stay... Just my two cents. Can't blame Tallon if Versteeg doesn't want to give consistent effort, or if the former management made him stay to a strick budget after blowing it all during the free agent splurge of two seasons ago.
 

Egblad

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I hope they blow the majority of the team up, including firing KD, as I've never been impressed with his style. If we want a fiery guy there with better qualifications (Lindy Ruff cough cough) is a phone call away.

Tallon has hit and missed in his tenure with the club, but he's been the best GM we've ever had so.... I think he'll stay... Just my two cents. Can't blame Tallon if Versteeg doesn't want to give consistent effort, or if the former management made him stay to a strick budget after blowing it all during the free agent splurge of two seasons ago.

I think Ruff is enjoying Dallas, to be honest.
 

CHGoalie27

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I hope they blow the majority of the team up, including firing KD, as I've never been impressed with his style. If we want a fiery guy there with better qualifications (Lindy Ruff cough cough) is a phone call away.

Tallon has hit and missed in his tenure with the club, but he's been the best GM we've ever had so.... I think he'll stay... Just my two cents. Can't blame Tallon if Versteeg doesn't want to give consistent effort, or if the former management made him stay to a strick budget after blowing it all during the free agent splurge of two seasons ago.

Holy **** where have you been?!??!
 

GernBlanston

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May 20, 2011
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I hope they blow the majority of the team up, including firing KD, as I've never been impressed with his style. If we want a fiery guy there with better qualifications (Lindy Ruff cough cough) is a phone call away.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand this particular sentiment. There are plenty of reasons to be unhappy with Dineen's performance to this point, but I can't believe that anyone who holds this opinion ever actually saw Dineen play a game. Fiery? Jeebus... I think that's the last of his problems. KD was one of the hardest working guys in the NHL for damn near 20 years, despite having middle-of-the-road talent. I think this is one of the reasons that he should - in theory - be a great coach. But if he can't get the same performance out of players that he was known for... well, that's really the crux of the biscuit.
 

Erick*

Guest
I'm sorry but Tallon brings guys, who in theory would work, then Dineen does what HE thinks he should do and ruins ****.

Thinking that Tallon and Dineen aren't on the same page is absurd.

Dale Tallon brought Dineen in to coach this team. It's not as if he's not Tallon's choice. Furthermore, Tallon has fully supported Kevin Dineen the past couple of years despite the mess this has become.

If you blame one, you have to blame the other.
 

CHGoalie27

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Thinking that Tallon and Dineen aren't on the same page is absurd.

Dale Tallon brought Dineen in to coach this team. It's not as if he's not Tallon's choice. Furthermore, Tallon has fully supported Kevin Dineen the past couple of years despite the mess this has become.

If you blame one, you have to blame the other.

Yeah, uh, no. It's not. I stick by what I said, and as chief decision maker, Tallon has to stick by his decisions to save face. To think otherwise is...absurd.
 

Erick*

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Yeah, uh, no. It's not. I stick by what I said, and as chief decision maker, Tallon has to stick by his decisions to save face. To think otherwise is...absurd.

:laugh:

You just like one guy and don't like the other. I just don't play favorites, I guess.

If you're going to call out one guy for poor coaching, call out the other guy who brought in all the dumbass players and who brought in the coach you're criticizing to coach all of the dumbass players. It's pretty simple.

A large % of the players and coaches involved in this mess were brought in by Dale Tallon. He should be held accountable for plenty of what's going on.

You're basically saying that this team isn't talented enough to score goals in other threads and that no goalie can save this mess. Who do you think put the talentless roster together? Let me guess...it's all because Dineen doesn't know how to put the lines together, right? :laugh: Not because these guys have been checking line players their whole careers. Nope, that has nothing to do with it. :shakehead
 

CHGoalie27

Don't blame the goalie!
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:laugh:

You just like one guy and don't like the other. I just don't play favorites, I guess.

If you're going to call out one guy for poor coaching, call out the other guy who brought in all the dumbass players and who brought in the coach you're criticizing to coach all of the dumbass players. It's pretty simple.

A large % of the players and coaches involved in this mess were brought in by Dale Tallon. He should be held accountable for plenty of what's going on.

You're basically saying that this team isn't talented enough to score goals in other threads and that no goalie can save this mess. Who do you think put the talentless roster together? Let me guess...it's all because Dineen doesn't know how to put the lines together, right? :laugh: Not because these guys have been checking line players their whole careers. Nope, that has nothing to do with it. :shakehead

That's dumb, maybe just MAYBE it's as simple as I think we would appear talented if we were organized properly. Not ANY of what you said.

Hey, if these guy don't have talent, how the ****ing hell did they make the NATIONAL ****ING HOCKEY LEAGUE?!?!~?
 

zeroG

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Thinking that Tallon and Dineen aren't on the same page is absurd.

Dale Tallon brought Dineen in to coach this team. It's not as if he's not Tallon's choice. Furthermore, Tallon has fully supported Kevin Dineen the past couple of years despite the mess this has become.

If you blame one, you have to blame the other.

tallon brought dineen in because he was a good, defendable choice. he'd earned a chance, came with the cache of a former NHL captain. once he commits to the guy, he's gotta have his back and give him a reasonable chance. having said that, i'm certain he's aware that this team's had some systemic issues. the hot start in 2011 covered it up a bit but they've never played really good hockey under dineen. i'm sure tallon has tried to work with dineen and be supportive but there's a point at which you have to realize that you've made a mistake.

you keep saying if you blame one, you have to blame the other. i don't agree at all. however, we're both just spouting off. let's see how this roster does under another coach, then revisit the issue.
 

Ghoste

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I just want to see a whole new coaching approach. I believe these guys are talented and just need a different vision.

-ghoste
 

zeroG

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1. Dallas is likely to miss the playoffs for a 6th consecutive season, and the Canes have made the playoffs twice in the previous 9 seasons (assuming they miss this year), so I wouldn't exactly say they are well run and don't stay down for long

2. I (at least this is the case for me) use Steeg as the whipping boy because he doesn't back check or seem to care at all, and is a turnover machine, it has nothing to do with his production

well, that's embarrassing. my bad. didn't double check. i guess it'd be better to say that those two franchises are usually at least competing for a playoff spot and, thanks to that and their championships, have a bit more appeal. if you sign on, you at least know you're going to be competitive.

re: versteeg: he's always been this type of player. where the criticism in 2011?
 

EnforceTheLaus

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tallon brought dineen in because he was a good, defendable choice. he'd earned a chance, came with the cache of a former NHL captain. once he commits to the guy, he's gotta have his back and give him a reasonable chance. having said that, i'm certain he's aware that this team's had some systemic issues. the hot start in 2011 covered it up a bit but they've never played really good hockey under dineen. i'm sure tallon has tried to work with dineen and be supportive but there's a point at which you have to realize that you've made a mistake.

you keep saying if you blame one, you have to blame the other. i don't agree at all. however, we're both just spouting off. let's see how this roster does under another coach, then revisit the issue.

Dineen was also the guy because he had a history if getting the most out if young players. He did wonders in Buf go their prospects and always seemed to get the best out of them.

Now the situation has obviously changed and he has lost the bench and locker room . Either we ride out Ramsay this season or bring in Lavy and go from there.
 

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