Releasing the Kraken on Dale Tallon

[Dread Clawz]

Seriously, did you not read what i wrote or something? I didn't say I'd stick a bunch of 18 year olds in the line-up, that's absurd. I clearly metioned how I rather have our young guys in the AHL such as Howden, Shore, Trocheck, Petrovic, Robak, etc. on the roster rather than the garbage vets we have right now.

You said you were disappointed in Tallon signing all those free agents in 2011 and thought that signaled that he had veered off course from his blueprint. Well, who were the prospects you would have inserted into the lineup instead then? Bjugstad, Petrovic, and Howden were only 19 at the time. And as you point out, Howden still isn't ready 2 years later. Grimaldi and Trocheck were only 18 and putting them in the lineup back then would have been completely ridiculous. You said it was smart of Tallon to send Huby back to junior for another year. So who then?

Maybe I should clarify this a little bit. The reason I'm upset with what Tallon did this off-season is because he started off the summer with the "we're going young" attitude, and changed his mind three weeks before the season. Buffalo is awful, but at least Darcy Regeir committed to going young and piling young assets. They'll be much better off for it in the future, as you can see their young core guys in Risolainen, Zadorov, Girgensons, and Grigorenko making strides.

He only said "we're going young" because ownership wouldn't let him spend any money. He wanted to spend money all along, which was evident when he splurged at the end of free agency once the purchase by Viola and Cifu went through. He never wanted to go the Buffalo route. And, Buffalo isn't really rushing any kids. Grigorenko was a 2012 pick, he should be in the NHL right now with his skillset. Girgensons is a big physically developed kid. Same with Risto and Zadorov, that's why they are playing at 18. If they were smaller, they would have been developed slower like Mark Pysyk, another Buffalo blueliner who is playing well for them. He's a 2010 pick, that was 3 years ago. They aren't rushing any kids. Unfortunately, a lot of their kids are ready, and most of ours are not. 2014-15 is "our year". Our kids are still one year away.

When it comes to the draft, I undersand it's a bit of a crap shoot. I just get the sense of a pattern with Tallon taking college bound kids in rounds 2-4 and taking over agers in rounds 5-7. I'm not saying none of these guys are going to work out, as Josh Brown has been good for Oshawa this year and Mackenzie Weegar was my favorite pick Tallon made all draft. It just seems to me that Tallon tends to avoid CHL player early, when he should be taking them. I mentioned the Trocheck, Shaw, and Racine picks. Those guys were all very good finds, and are already playing their first pro season. Meanwhile, some of the college guys from Tallon's first draft such as Connor Brickley, Joe Basaraba, and Ben Gallacher are still in college and none of them look like NHL prospects at the moment. Again, not saying I expect the team to hit on every pick, but I'd like to say him take more risk, especailly with a prospect base considered as deep as ours.

You can't draft all CHL kids, because every team is only allowed 50 pro contracts. So you have to have some kids sitting in the NCAA for 3-4 years to space things out. It holds especially true for us, because we have so many prospects. Tallon has still taken several CHL/Euro kids in 4 drafts.

 

[JP Mick]

Could they be that much worse than Gilbert, Whitney, and Gilroy?

That's a very good point actually. I think 2 of the 3 were expected to perform a little better then they have been.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

One thing I think is often overlooked with Tallon is how he makes poor decisions in player contracts. This includes his big spending spree in the summer of 2011. Everyone always says, "We had to spend all that money to reach the cap floor." But why did he have to sign EVERYONE to 3-4 yr deals? Especially why sign a guy that's a 35+ deal to 4 yrs (Jovo) or a player who was injury prone as well to 4 yrs (Upshall, more recently Versteeg). We could have just as easily reached the cap floor by signing those guys to 2 yr deals, even if we had to overpay more than we did. And if those were isolated incidents of how he handles player contracts that would be one thing but he's consistently had issues, dating back to his run with Chicago. Those mistakes have continually hamstrung the team and it makes it difficult to make other moves because no one wants these bad contracts unless you give up something else to compensate or take a bad contract back.

Oh and quick point to MR regarding Tallon and the draft. Don't you think he told his scouting staff to focus on drafting guys headed to college in the middle rounds? Yeah he's probably not saying pick player X in round 3-5 but I'm sure he's wanting his staff to come up with their lists with a favorable edge to guys going the NCAA route. That way the team has: (a) longer time before they have to sign that player, (b) get free development time for at least 2-3 yrs, and (c) it doesn't use one of the 50 reserved spots in the org on a prospect that may never develop into a good enough pro.

 

[Dread Clawz]

One thing I think is often overlooked with Tallon is how he makes poor decisions in player contracts. This includes his big spending spree in the summer of 2011. Everyone always says, "We had to spend all that money to reach the cap floor." But why did he have to sign EVERYONE to 3-4 yr deals? Especially why sign a guy that's a 35+ deal to 4 yrs (Jovo) or a player who was injury prone as well to 4 yrs (Upshall, more recently Versteeg). We could have just as easily reached the cap floor by signing those guys to 2 yr deals, even if we had to overpay more than we did. And if those were isolated incidents of how he handles player contracts that would be one thing but he's consistently had issues, dating back to his run with Chicago. Those mistakes have continually hamstrung the team and it makes it difficult to make other moves because no one wants these bad contracts unless you give up something else to compensate or take a bad contract back.

A quality UFA is not going to sign for only 2 years when he's probably got multiple 3-4 year offers, if not longer. We did what we had to do.

Oh and quick point to MR regarding Tallon and the draft. Don't you think he told his scouting staff to focus on drafting guys headed to college in the middle rounds? Yeah he's probably not saying pick player X in round 3-5 but I'm sure he's wanting his staff to come up with their lists with a favorable edge to guys going the NCAA route. That way the team has: (a) longer time before they have to sign that player, (b) get free development time for at least 2-3 yrs, and (c) it doesn't use one of the 50 reserved spots in the org on a prospect that may never develop into a good enough pro.

I already mentioned this, and what's wrong with that? As I said, you have to do that, you can't take all CHL kids. But Tallon is not personally making the draft picks. The scouts are doing that.

 

[luby3131]

I already mentioned this, and what's wrong with that? As I said, you have to do that, you can't take all CHL kids. But Tallon is not personally making the draft picks. The scouts are doing that.

Nobody said take all CHL kids, but nobody said take all NCAA bound kids either. And drop the inserting 18 year olds into the line up thing, I clearly never said that, your point is moot.

 

[PanthersHockey1]

For all the reasons the op pointed to the majority of fault should be pointed at ownership and scouting which has given us a losing battle for the last 20 years.

 

[LUUUUUIS]

.... Then came the Aleksander Barkov selection. I like Barkov, and think he's going to be a very good player in this league. Problem is, I think Seth Jones will be a great one. Tallon made a mistake good GMs don't, and that's drafting positional need over best player available. ...

Your entire post is essentially just about this small bit here.

Could they be that much worse than Gilbert, Whitney, and Gilroy?

Hindsight.


P.S. Omar Kelly is clown shoes.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

You have to look at his FA signings in context. Kuba for example was for 2 reasons: 1. During the Devils series Guddy showed he could take up G52's spot and not miss a beat. That made Garrison expendable. 2. Kuba played a good year with the Norris winner. At the time he looked like an insurance vet to keep the seat warm for Guddy next to Campbell.

 

[Laus723]

GMs who don't have crystal balls should be fired!

 

[RogerRoger]

Could they be that much worse than Gilbert, Whitney, and Gilroy?

Not much, but it could greatly hinder their development.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Nobody said take all CHL kids, but nobody said take all NCAA bound kids either. And drop the inserting 18 year olds into the line up thing, I clearly never said that, your point is moot.

He's not taking all NCAA bound kids. He's mixed it up. He has to take a lot of NCAA kids because we have a ton of prospects. CHL/Euro kids we've drafted under Tallon: Gudbranson, Howden, McFarland, Petrovic, Donskoi, Durocher, Huberdeau, Trocheck, Shaw, Racine, Bengtsson, Kosov, Pakarinen, Hodges, Delnov, Beauvillier, Nielsen, Barkov, Clapperton, Brown, Weegar.

In your response to JP Mick, you said Tallon veered off of the blueprint in the summer of 2011. What is that supposed to mean then? Who were the several prospects that were ready to step into our lineup back then, that would have replaced all the UFAs we signed?

 

[SoupyFIN]

I don't see your point. These are two separate scenarios. Weiss to Detroit was not a well known lock. Toronto was the destination everyone was pointing to around the time of the draft if I remember correctly. Garrison to Vancouver was talked about for months. I'm not saying not trading Weiss' rights was a major mistake, but it's something he should've done.

Garrison to Vancouver was talked, but I don't think anyone bet their head that it's going to happen with the capspace Vancouver had at the time.

SW's wife was from Michigan, don't recall how close to Detroit exactly, but from the area anyway, and that was well known around here.

GMs who don't have crystal balls should be fired!

Exactly. This is just a bunch of what-ifs and assumptions that Tallon should how a trade/signing/pick is going to turn out even before he's played one game in a Panthers uniform. Not really fair IMO.

 

[ProjectPanthers]

I have to be honest, I came into this post thinking "great, here we go".

But you've made some strong points. I can't say I disagree with a lot. Tallon has been handling the team very poorly over the last year and a half.

The thing is, I'm not ready to fire him yet. He hasn't ruined our franchise or set us back 5 years like previous GMs have. It was obvious the ownership was holding out on him, hence the flood of PTOs that came in during training camp. To me that screams of desperation from Tallon, and that he wasn't confident in the kids ever, but money stopped him from filling those holes with actual NHLers.

We use to complain that our youngsters are rushed, but now we want them in the NHL ASAP? No. Who cares if Scott Gomez blows? Him playing for us this year give Trocheck an extra season to build confidence and (like you said) dominate the AHL. I bet he's going to feel pretty damn good going into training camp next season.

I still want to wait and see with Tallon. The on-ice product is awful but we shouldn't be THIS awful. Not saying we should be a lot better, but we shouldn't be THIS bad. I want to see how he handles the coaching situation, and how this draft and off-season will go before I really get hard on Tallon. If his hands were tied with a lack of money, can we really blame him?

He has made his fair share of mistakes. Grabner and Kuba are probably his biggest blunders. The Grabner situation I will forever be pissed about because I always wanted another speedy, scoring winger on this team since Pavel left and Grabner could've been that for us. The Kuba signing was a disaster and you could even say the same for Jovo. Losing Garrison was probably one of the worst things to happen to this team. We're still recovering from it.

So as I said, let's wait and see. I'm confident in Tallon's drafting ability and I want to see what he can do with another summer with a lot quality guys available and a fat wallet. I'm confident he can turn this team around and make us the contenders we should be.

Oh, and in regards to drafting Barkov, I think it was the right move. Seth Jones will be great, but 2 other teams also passed on him. Seth Jones is in the perfect scenario with Weber as a mentor. Tampa, Colorado or Florida wouldn't have had that kind of mentor for him. Weber will have a massive part in that kid's success, trust me. Jones will be a great player but we haven't even seen a fraction of what Barkov's game is going to be. Wait until he gets some actual linemates and the team plays with confidence again.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

I want to see what he does this off season before I judge him, since apparently the team will be able to spend for once.

 

[SufferingCatFan]

Fact: we have been close to a salary cap floor team with an inflated number due to padding with ELC bonuses

Fact: we have had cheap ownership who refused to allow Tallon to sign UFAs last offseason

Fact: 25% of the players on our team are vet castoffs that pretty much no one wanted- Boyes, Gomez, Gilbert, Whitney, Gilroy etc.

Fact: We are in the midst of a rebuild with most picking us to finish in the bottom 3

Fact: We have one of the best prospect pools in the NHL

Opinion: Tallon is making the best of a bad situation

 

[CapeShamrock]

Fact: we have been close to a salary cap floor team with an inflated number due to padding with ELC bonuses

Fact: we have had cheap ownership who refused to allow Tallon to sign UFAs last offseason

Fact: 25% of the players on our team are vet castoffs that pretty much no one wanted- Boyes, Gomez, Gilbert, Whitney, Gilroy etc.

Fact: We are in the midst of a rebuild with most picking us to finish in the bottom 3

Fact: We have one of the best prospect pools in the NHL

Opinion: Tallon is making the best of a bad situation

FACTS: DT has had terrific drafts and has loaded up for several years to come. We have 1 R.O.Y. (Huby) with another potential (Barbov). Excellent. Panthers have done quite well. We do not win with young developing players. We win with seasoned proven gritty young men who want and can compete; which allows the young guns time to mature and to establish their foothold in the league.

Since 2010 DRAFT year (Tallon's first ) here is the list of teams with the number of players that have played in the NHL (greater than 1 game). Not many, with Florida leading the list.


Minnesota6
Florida 6
Anaheim 5
Buffalo 5
Carolina 4
Edmonton4
Boston 3
Calgary 3
Colorado 3
Columbus 3
Montreal 3
Philadelphia3
St. Louis 3
Chicago 2
Dallas 2
Nashville 2
New Jersey2
NY Islanders2
Pittsburgh2
San Jose 2
Tampa Bay2
Washington2
Winnipeg 2

 

[Chino Oscar]

Could they be that much worse than Gilbert, Whitney, and Gilroy?

Did you watch the preseason games?

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

A quality UFA is not going to sign for only 2 years when he's probably got multiple 3-4 year offers, if not longer. We did what we had to do.

I disagree with this a lot, both now and back then. Everyone at the time said we overpaid for the guys we signed...mostly because of the term, not just salary. Guys were signed for too long because Tallon thought he was saving money by doing so. But I think its pretty obvious that Tallon was hit & miss on evaluating the actual talent too. So that evaluation actually has ended up costing more money in the long run.

Now if we look back at 2011, there were plenty of UFAs that signed for less than 3 yrs, guys that had similar or better reputations to what we signed. Instead of signing Jovo for his leadership for 4 yrs, could've signed Roman Hamrlik for the same thing for 2 yrs (not a big upgrade but produced the same amount their 1st yr and then we actually we would've been free from that deal anyway in the 2nd yr when he was waived) and not stuck with an injury prone player for the last 2 yrs. Another guy we could've had for less yrs was Kaberle (3 yrs @ 4.25M/yr so same price as Jovo) and while he didnt work in Carolina, at least they traded him pretty quickly and got out from under that contract. Instead of sigining Upshall who was injury prone and only had one proven yr, he could've signed Michael Ryder to a 2 yr deal (same price too) and he was a more proven goalscorer. Heck sign Raffi Torres for 3 yrs instead of 4 and at least get more consistent play. There were plenty of guys too that would've signed for 1 yr instead of signing Matt Bradley for 2 yrs and having to buy him out (Konopka, Carcillo, re-sign Dvorak, Glass).

I already mentioned this, and what's wrong with that? As I said, you have to do that, you can't take all CHL kids. But Tallon is not personally making the draft picks. The scouts are doing that.

I think that tells you a lot actually. First, it means Tallon is relying on the talent he has already brought in here because he is going to wait the 3-5 yrs for those college guys to develop (which as we've now seen, isnt working). Second, while the quality of the NCAA has improved, its still not the main source of talent for most NHL teams when drafting & developing. Sprinkling some NCAA guys to your pool is good but we've been focusing way more heavily on that instead. Lastly, when you draft a few more CHL kids and have to develop them on your own, it means you have to be smarter about how you manage your AHL team as well. The Rampage has had such up & down success since we re-affiliated with them which seemed to be a direct reflection of the talent there and how to manage the roster. They've either never had enough good talent (because most prospects were in college) or they've had to sign mediocre (and/or the wrong) veterans to bridge the gap that they havent had any sustained success in the AHL.

And again, Tallon may not be personally making the picks but he HAS to be directly influencing the scouts to select those guys. So Tallon is responsible in one way or another, even if he's not specifically saying, "draft that kid from University of Michigan/Minnesota/Denver/etc". You cant totally put this on the scouts.

 

[Pantherfan12]

I have to be honest, I came into this post thinking "great, here we go".

But you've made some strong points. I can't say I disagree with a lot. Tallon has been handling the team very poorly over the last year and a half.

The thing is, I'm not ready to fire him yet. He hasn't ruined our franchise or set us back 5 years like previous GMs have. It was obvious the ownership was holding out on him, hence the flood of PTOs that came in during training camp. To me that screams of desperation from Tallon, and that he wasn't confident in the kids ever, but money stopped him from filling those holes with actual NHLers.

We use to complain that our youngsters are rushed, but now we want them in the NHL ASAP? No. Who cares if Scott Gomez blows? Him playing for us this year give Trocheck an extra season to build confidence and (like you said) dominate the AHL. I bet he's going to feel pretty damn good going into training camp next season.

I still want to wait and see with Tallon. The on-ice product is awful but we shouldn't be THIS awful. Not saying we should be a lot better, but we shouldn't be THIS bad. I want to see how he handles the coaching situation, and how this draft and off-season will go before I really get hard on Tallon. If his hands were tied with a lack of money, can we really blame him?

He has made his fair share of mistakes. Grabner and Kuba are probably his biggest blunders. The Grabner situation I will forever be pissed about because I always wanted another speedy, scoring winger on this team since Pavel left and Grabner could've been that for us. The Kuba signing was a disaster and you could even say the same for Jovo. Losing Garrison was probably one of the worst things to happen to this team. We're still recovering from it.

So as I said, let's wait and see. I'm confident in Tallon's drafting ability and I want to see what he can do with another summer with a lot quality guys available and a fat wallet. I'm confident he can turn this team around and make us the contenders we should be.

Oh, and in regards to drafting Barkov, I think it was the right move. Seth Jones will be great, but 2 other teams also passed on him. Seth Jones is in the perfect scenario with Weber as a mentor. Tampa, Colorado or Florida wouldn't have had that kind of mentor for him. Weber will have a massive part in that kid's success, trust me. Jones will be a great player but we haven't even seen a fraction of what Barkov's game is going to be. Wait until he gets some actual linemates and the team plays with confidence again.

I have to agree with you here. You make some great, valid points.
My opinion is, that I am happy with what Tallon has done here so far. The one thing I did not like that Tallon did was trade Frolik for Skille. Skille did not pan out at all and Frolik won a Cup. I am not mad at the Grabner situation because Tallon AND Dineen did what they thought was best. Grabner hasn't been the only player to be sent through waivers due to poor performance in training camp/pre-season, he just happened to be claimed off waivers. You can't fault Tallon for that.
With regards to the free agents he has and hasn't signed, well I think it's obvious that Tallon was severely handcuffed by ownership about what he can and can't spend. Hopefully this is not the case anymore and Tallon can finally finish this blueprint he started.
One other point I'd like to make is that I think the lack of success right now is due to coaching. I like Dineen and I'd hate to see him go, but this team isn't giving 110% every night and that's on coaching. We may not have great players and we may be in transition of a rebuild, but I expect our coaches to have whomever puts on that jersey to play hard each and every shift or not play at all. There's no excuse for lazy,sloppy play and that's exactly what we have. I feel as though Dineen needed to be benching players who just coast through the game or not give 110% and so far, he hasn't. We can blame Marky for his soft goals, the entire team for always shooting the puck wide, the constant turnovers,or our D for not pinching properly, but we all know it comes down to coaching. If Whitney,Gilbert, and Gilroy don't want to play hard every night, I'm sure Petrovic or Robak would seize the moment. If Versteeg or Boyes wants to coast on their way back to help defend a three on two, I'm sure Shore or Trocheck would hustle their entire shift.
My point is, if Dineen and co. aren't holding the players accountable, then it falls on coaching for not correcting that problem.

 

[JdRoar]

Another point that hasn't been brought up (this season)
Our medical/training staff worries me
Last year we had most of our players playing hurt and getting more serious injuries
Did we see that happen to TThomas this year?
He pulled his groin and then was back on the ice a week later, I would have liked to see him come back a little more healthy, who knows he might have stayed healthy.

Just my opinion, nothing really concrete to back that up.

 

[RogerRoger]

Now if we look back at 2011, there were plenty of UFAs that signed for less than 3 yrs, guys that had similar or better reputations to what we signed. Instead of signing Jovo for his leadership for 4 yrs, could've signed Roman Hamrlik for the same thing for 2 yrs (not a big upgrade but produced the same amount their 1st yr and then we actually we would've been free from that deal anyway in the 2nd yr when he was waived) and not stuck with an injury prone player for the last 2 yrs. Another guy we could've had for less yrs was Kaberle (3 yrs @ 4.25M/yr so same price as Jovo) and while he didnt work in Carolina, at least they traded him pretty quickly and got out from under that contract. Instead of sigining Upshall who was injury prone and only had one proven yr, he could've signed Michael Ryder to a 2 yr deal (same price too) and he was a more proven goalscorer. Heck sign Raffi Torres for 3 yrs instead of 4 and at least get more consistent play. There were plenty of guys too that would've signed for 1 yr instead of signing Matt Bradley for 2 yrs and having to buy him out (Konopka, Carcillo, re-sign Dvorak, Glass).

Hindsight is always 20/20. I don't think it's possible to know if the players Tallon signed were his first choice. Maybe Upshall was his 3rd option. On the lot, I'm fairly confident they were not all his first choice.

 

[gudzilla]

wow, are people really trashing on bradley? the guy got concussed and retired(?)

he was a GREAT energy player. played good, hard, fought etc

i miss him. a lot

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

Hindsight is always 20/20. I don't think it's possible to know if the players Tallon signed were his first choice. Maybe Upshall was his 3rd option. On the lot, I'm fairly confident they were not all his first choice.

As I said, it wasnt just a highsight is 20/20 scenario. A lot of people were saying we overpaid then and mostly it was about term just as much as salary. They were saying at that time we overpaid because there was such huge question marks about all of the guys. I'm just saying, through those examples, that there was still ways to reach the cap floor and have more flexibility without sacrificing talent too.

And I'm sorry but if you're investing over $12+M in a player for the next 4 yrs, he better be one of your top choices. Otherwise, you dont sign that guy for all those yrs and just sign them for 2 yrs like I was saying. Heck even if you have to pay MORE per yr, then its smarter to do that than lock yourself in to guys who arent you 1st choice for long term.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

wow, are people really trashing on bradley? the guy got concussed and retired(?)

he was a GREAT energy player. played good, hard, fought etc

i miss him. a lot

Um, FYI you cant buyout a player who is injured with a concussion and would've been on LTIR. He was bought out of his last yr because he didnt work out in our lineup and just wasnt good enough really. Again, its not about trashing on any of the players themselves but the evaluation on the talent and the money spent.

 

[gudzilla]

Um, FYI you cant buyout a player who is injured with a concussion and would've been on LTIR. He was bought out of his last yr because he didnt work out in our lineup and just wasnt good enough really. Again, its not about trashing on any of the players themselves but the evaluation on the talent and the money spent.

i know you cant buy out injured players, but if he wasn't concussed earlier, would he have been bought it? it was pretty bad and buying him out was cheaper than all the potential set backs

im not sure about the whole story, but people keep trashing instead of evaluating. this board puts all the blame on certain players and ignore everything good they did and just blows the bad stuff out of porportion.