OT: Relationship Advice Thread

[will1066]

The thing is I'm not sure if I mentioned this since I've been posting a lot. On my first date through the program, the girl seemed to really like me, but one of only two things negative that she mentioned other than not knowing why she's not interested is that I'm "not far enough along in my career as she hopes." THAT was definitely about salary BUT I made the mistake of telling her I'm not making as much as I'd like. I never made that mistake again. My job sounds pretty good if you don't know my salary. The girl before this girl worked at McKinsey which is much more impressive than some digital media job and said in her feedback that she appreciated my job. My guess about the ambition part is that I didn't sound super passionate about it, which is not really true. I said that I didn't do have much to do the day of and the reason I got the job was that my friended recommended me because it wasn't a good fit for him. Sure you CAN extrapolate that as "it sounds like a job where there's nothing to do and he got sloppy seconds". But it could also been "this ONE day I didn't have much to do because it's Christmas time and his friend was looking for a different job so he turned this one down", that could mean he was looking for a less prestigious job. It's a complete reach to think that I'm not super passionate about the job based on that and also another stretch to think that being not super passionate means I'm not ambitious. My previous job I was absolutely miserable in and had zero passion for it, doesn't mean I wasn't ambitious and didn't want to change jobs and build my career in a different direction. And we spoke about my job for like 5 minutes. It's just A LOT of assumptions. And this is what makes this difficult. People make snap judgments on you based on very weak data that may be 5 minutes in length. VERY WEAK data. If she asked me if I liked the job, I'd say yes and tell her why. But she didn't.

But what else can they do? They have only the info you give them. How you tell the story is just as important as what your story is about. Think of a PowerPoint, which I personally hate. Most people put info on it and recite it verbatim. Boring af. But put interesting pictures, humorous metaphors to the subject and now you engage and stimulate people. What about body language? Are you low energy on body language? You mentioned light touching. Are you animated enough while taking or are you talking stiff literally? Do you think your projecting energy? Are you coming off as too reserved?

 

[kovazub94]

I just can't fathom how some people seem to latch on to one thing said and it gets extrapolated based on no info and then you get judged based on the figment of her imagination. It feels like most women (and maybe men, I don't know) are legit going into this to find people to rule out rather than people to date. It's just maddening, I don't know how I'm supposed to date in that type of climate.

Just keep even keel. Stay free from feeling “maddening” as reaction.

BTW, the recent dates you’re referring - are these in person or via zoom etc?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

But what else can they do? They have only the info you give them. How you tell the story is just as important as what your story is about. Think of a PowerPoint, which I personally hate. Most people put info on it and recite it verbatim. Boring af. But put interesting pictures, humorous metaphors to the subject and now you engage and stimulate people. What about body language? Are you low energy on body language? You mentioned light touching. Are you animated enough while taking or are you talking stiff literally? Do you think your projecting energy? Are you coming off as too reserved?

I'm one of the most animated talkers that you'll see. My energy is both a strength and weakness. I've gotten feedback from career coaches and friends that I need to rein in my hand gestures as I talk with my hands too much. I smile a ton. I've had to work on toning it down in fact. I will admit some dates where I wasn't as comfortable I wasn't as animated. This was NOT the case on this date, it just wasn't, this was possibly one of the more comfortable dates I had and was energetic, which is why I'm confused by her "shy" feedback.

Also, to answer your first question, how about just don't judge someone by one word based on absolutely no information? This isn't a "I made a sexist comment but I'm a good guy why doesn't she look past that and give me a chance". It's close to zero information that isn't bad and she's extrapolating. How about not making decisions about something as complicated as my career ambitions based on no information at all? I spoke about my job for 5 minutes tops and said nothing controversial. Why is it so accepted that you're going to be judged based on nothing that your response is empathy and what can the poor girl do but judge you? If you noticed I didn't blame the other girl to whom I revealed that I make less than I'd like even though someone might think it's shallow on her end. At least it was a decision based on solid data. But here, I'm supposed to be 100% perfect in HER mind? I'm supposed to know how she'll perceive something even if what I said is uncontroversial? How does that elicit empathy for her from you?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Just keep even keel. Stay free from feeling “maddening” as reaction.

BTW, the recent dates you’re referring - are these in person or via zoom etc?

Last date was on Zoom, the one before that was in person.

 

[kovazub94]

Last date was on Zoom, the one before that was in person.

Record yourself on zoom. Watch afterwards - maybe you see something - lexicon, gestures, body language etc

 

[mrmovies779]

Best advice i can give is dont try to analyze every date or the woman.You'll drive yourself crazy trying to understand it.Just be yourself and let everything else you cant control not get to you.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Record yourself on zoom. Watch afterwards - maybe you see something - lexicon, gestures, body language etc

That's good advice but I don't know if I'll have the stomach for that, haha.

 

[will1066]

I'm one of the most animated talkers that you'll see. My energy is both a strength and weakness. I've gotten feedback from career coaches and friends that I need to rein in my hand gestures as I talk with my hands too much. I smile a ton. I've had to work on toning it down in fact. I will admit some dates where I wasn't as comfortable I wasn't as animated. This was NOT the case on this date, it just wasn't, this was possibly one of the more comfortable dates I had and was energetic, which is why I'm confused by her "shy" feedback.

Also, to answer your first question, how about just don't judge someone by one word based on absolutely no information? This isn't a "I made a sexist comment but I'm a good guy why doesn't she look past that and give me a chance". It's close to zero information that isn't bad and she's extrapolating. How about not making decisions about something as complicated as my career ambitions based on no information at all? I spoke about my job for 5 minutes tops and said nothing controversial. Why is it so accepted that you're going to be judged based on nothing that your response is empathy and what can the poor girl do but judge you? If you noticed I didn't blame the other girl to whom I revealed that I make less than I'd like even though someone might think it's shallow on her end. At least it was a decision based on solid data. But here, I'm supposed to be 100% perfect in HER mind? I'm supposed to know how she'll perceive something even if what I said is uncontroversial? How does that elicit empathy for her from you?

You should realize that the extent to which I'm poking into your experience is actually empathy for you. Again like I said before it's hard not to sound judgmental while giving you my interpretation of what happened. Im trying to help, not judge. Im also imagining if I'm in your date's shoes how she would react. If the things I suggested you feel you have sufficiently delivered during your date and you feel the subjects you broached in conversation were not risque, then you need to ask yourself what's the common denominator that's stopping you from finding romance.

Maybe it's unfortunate you're having dates with judgmental types who can't get past that one trip-up you seem to commit on each date. The only other advice is maybe have less deep or intense convos on a first date. You seem to want to dive into deep intellectual talk. It's hard to get a read when you say that you're doing nearly everything right, whether you're gregarious and animated or conservative and reserved depending on the date.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

You should realize that the extent to which I'm poking into your experience is actually empathy for you. Again like I said before it's hard not to sound judgmental while giving you my interpretation of what happened. Im trying to help, not judge. Im also imagining if I'm in your date's shoes how she would react. If the things I suggested you feel you have sufficiently delivered during your date and you feel the subjects you broached in conversation were not risque, then you need to ask yourself what's the common denominator that's stopping you from finding romance.

Maybe it's unfortunate you're having dates with judgmental types who can't get past that one trip-up you seem to commit on each date. The only other advice is maybe have less deep or intense convos on a first date. You seem to want to dive into deep intellectual talk. It's hard to get a read when you say that you're doing nearly everything right, whether you're gregarious and animated or conservative and reserved depending on the date.

I appreciate the help and I hope I didn't come off too harsh in my last post. I was just responding to "what is she supposed to do?" If she judged me based on the Morocco story I'd be with you. But it wasn't the case here with the ambition. And not every girl was that judgmental, I think this one was on the extreme end of it. But she's the most recent. And her feedback was legit the most perplexing. It was easily the biggest discrepancy between how I felt and how she felt. The thing that I've thought it was for a while because I'd get a lot of dates and a lot of positive feedback a lot of the dates just said they didn't feel romantic connection. I thought and still think that I might lack in terms of flirting and maybe giving compliments. Both things are very unnatural and uncomfortable on a first date to me. And flirting is a complicated thing that I feel like requires you to tap into emotions and creativity that I don't have access to on the first date. I'll be honest even my sense of humor doesn't always translate. This last date I thought it did, but not always. But just banter and jokes I'm much more comfortable with because I have more experience with. Flirting to me is another matter.

As far as reserved and gregarious, is there really one right way? I've had people say that gregarious is good and you've said that. But I've also had people say that women like reserved guys. Probably the best thing I heard is be yourself. Gregarious is closer to my natural state but reserved happens when I'm a little uptight and on guard and when the girl is the same. Same on interviews, some interviewers allow me to be a bit more gregarious if they act the same.

 

[Roo Returns]

@SnowblindNYR a few more pieces of information.

-For the Morocco story, my best friend who does pretty well with ladies gave me some of the best advice when I was dating a girl in my early-20s who would get angry at me for anything and everything: "look you gotta be yourself. At the end of the day you're a decent human being with a big heart and if some chick can't see that and is going to be appalled by some one-liner or joke, how the $^## are they gonna do 10 years into a marriage?"

-The "not ambitious" thing: look up hypergamy. New York/Miami/Los Angeles are the three most exponentially hypergamous cities in the US. It's nothing with you, she just may want someone who is making 250K per year. There's also social hypergamy. About 7-8 years ago my friend tried to set me up with this lawyer. Pretty girl and I knew she wasn't marriage material (I didn't feel it with her on interactions other than a physical attraction). She wouldn't go on a date with me because I wasn't part of that elite NYC professionals scene, was "only then working on an advanced degree," and as everyone on this board knows, I'm never going to wear dress shoes or tuck my shirt in on weekends when I'm just lounging. I'm in band or Rangers t-shirts/shorts/baseball caps most of the time when I'm not working or at a formal event. She wanted me to be in a suit and tie at all times and do the whole socialite dinner party nonsense. Nope.

-As for conversations, I'm sure you are 100% a great conversationalist. I am too. There's this certain type of charm or "messing" you may have to improve on. I've never met you so I can't say. And I'm not trying to offend you. As with all my posts on this board I am coming with the mindset of what the teacher told Holden in "Catcher In The Rye" or the Star Trek mentality which is write down your journeys and experiences and share them with other people so you can help them in their journey and live better lives. If you or anyone on this board thinks I'm full of bologna/salami/prosciutto that's ok. You can ignore it.

I was very shy and had low self esteem at various points in my life. I've learned that I'm on par or better at conversing than 90% of the people out there. I'm sure you are too. Remember, everyone has problems that they hide. You're probably smarter than most.

A lot of time my friends who do best with women know how to tease them or play with them. It's not so straightforward. They make them laugh and also put them down a little. Not in a bad way, but playful way. Women want to feel.

You will improve with flirting and playfulness. Read books on it and practice.

The last thing is about drama. Women are more emotional creatures. My ex from my mid-20s who I am still very good friends with (she texted me today messing with me about my stomach, saying I'm an old lightweight and don't drink wine anymore lol) once told me that she didn't enjoy or handle things well when everyone was getting along, she needed a little gossip or spice, and even today a coworker via Skype said "what's a day without a little good drama?" and I hah hah'd but then in my mind referred back to the beginning of this paragraph.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

@SnowblindNYR a few more pieces of information.

-For the Morocco story, my best friend who does pretty well with ladies gave me some of the best advice when I was dating a girl in my early-20s who would get angry at me for anything and everything: "look you gotta be yourself. At the end of the day you're a decent human being with a big heart and if some chick can't see that and is going to be appalled by some one-liner or joke, how the $^## are they gonna do 10 years into a marriage?"

-The "not ambitious" thing: look up hypergamy. New York/Miami/Los Angeles are the three most exponentially hypergamous cities in the US. It's nothing with you, she just may want someone who is making 250K per year. There's also social hypergamy. About 7-8 years ago my friend tried to set me up with this lawyer. Pretty girl and I knew she wasn't marriage material (I didn't feel it with her on interactions other than a physical attraction). She wouldn't go on a date with me because I wasn't part of that elite NYC professionals scene, was "only then working on an advanced degree," and as everyone on this board knows, I'm never going to wear dress shoes or tuck my shirt in on weekends when I'm just lounging. I'm in band or Rangers t-shirts/shorts/baseball caps most of the time when I'm not working or at a formal event. She wanted me to be in a suit and tie at all times and do the whole socialite dinner party nonsense. Nope.

-As for conversations, I'm sure you are 100% a great conversationalist. I am too. There's this certain type of charm or "messing" you may have to improve on. I've never met you so I can't say. And I'm not trying to offend you. As with all my posts on this board I am coming with the mindset of what the teacher told Holden in "Catcher In The Rye" or the Star Trek mentality which is write down your journeys and experiences and share them with other people so you can help them in their journey and live better lives. If you or anyone on this board thinks I'm full of bologna/salami/prosciutto that's ok. You can ignore it.

I was very shy and had low self esteem at various points in my life. I've learned that I'm on par or better at conversing than 90% of the people out there. I'm sure you are too. Remember, everyone has problems that they hide. You're probably smarter than most.

A lot of time my friends who do best with women know how to tease them or play with them. It's not so straightforward. They make them laugh and also put them down a little. Not in a bad way, but playful way. Women want to feel.

You will improve with flirting and playfulness. Read books on it and practice.

The last thing is about drama. Women are more emotional creatures. My ex from my mid-20s who I am still very good friends with (she texted me today messing with me about my stomach, saying I'm an old lightweight and don't drink wine anymore lol) once told me that she didn't enjoy or handle things well when everyone was getting along, she needed a little gossip or spice, and even today a coworker via Skype said "what's a day without a little good drama?" and I hah hah'd but then in my mind referred back to the beginning of this paragraph.

Thanks for this I needed the pick me up before going to sleep. The one thing from that where my confidence has gone down a bit is conversation, I used to think I was amazing at it lately I've run out of things to say quicker. That said I had a 6 hour conversation on video chat with my coworker the other day (she's married). So maybe it depends on the situation.

 

[LokiDog]

 

[will1066]

I appreciate the help and I hope I didn't come off too harsh in my last post. I was just responding to "what is she supposed to do?" If she judged me based on the Morocco story I'd be with you. But it wasn't the case here with the ambition. And not every girl was that judgmental, I think this one was on the extreme end of it. But she's the most recent. And her feedback was legit the most perplexing. It was easily the biggest discrepancy between how I felt and how she felt. The thing that I've thought it was for a while because I'd get a lot of dates and a lot of positive feedback a lot of the dates just said they didn't feel romantic connection. I thought and still think that I might lack in terms of flirting and maybe giving compliments. Both things are very unnatural and uncomfortable on a first date to me. And flirting is a complicated thing that I feel like requires you to tap into emotions and creativity that I don't have access to on the first date. I'll be honest even my sense of humor doesn't always translate. This last date I thought it did, but not always. But just banter and jokes I'm much more comfortable with because I have more experience with. Flirting to me is another matter.

As far as reserved and gregarious, is there really one right way? I've had people say that gregarious is good and you've said that. But I've also had people say that women like reserved guys. Probably the best thing I heard is be yourself. Gregarious is closer to my natural state but reserved happens when I'm a little uptight and on guard and when the girl is the same. Same on interviews, some interviewers allow me to be a bit more gregarious if they act the same.

Nothing to worry about. I know you're talking from a standpoint of frustration. I agree that the most important thing is to be your genuine self. I do feel on a first date, you should let the date lead, and you should try to read off that and get a feel of what topics (and subtopics) she is comfortable with. If you're reading that the person likes gregarious, then go with the flow. I realize there's a fine balance with this, being too reserved or too aggressive in trying to initiate. There's just no formula. It just depends on the person you're on the date with. As far as humor, mine's predominantly the dry type with a little sarcasm and sometimes corniness. People do find me funny. I can be a clown straight-up; it depends on the people and situation. Being self-deprecating and making jokes about yourself might be attractive to some people.

Also, what @Roo Returns said about verbal sparring. That's a component of flirting. In addition to reading about it, watch some rom-coms. Seriously. Although they're obviously scripted, you still can get a sense of what it's like to flirt via verbal jousting.

I just finished some annual compliance training yesterday. I said to my co-worker, damn, I almost flunked blahblahblah (self-deprecating), and she laughed and said she almost did the same with ethics. So, I said jokingly, "I knew you were always unethical."Another time, I was talking to someone else, who was commenting about a third person in the company being a great person, saying, "greater than you and I." So, I just said reflexively, "Oh, c'mon, we both know that you and I are the greatest." (in a way, a flirtatious statement about my relationship with her and a subtle compliment)

I always go back to the subtle, flirtatious jabs that Bill Murray makes at Scarlett Johansson in Lost in Translation. Just make little things funny.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Nothing to worry about. I know you're talking from a standpoint of frustration. I agree that the most important thing is to be your genuine self. I do feel on a first date, you should let the date lead, and you should try to read off that and get a feel of what topics (and subtopics) she is comfortable with. If you're reading that the person likes gregarious, then go with the flow. I realize there's a fine balance with this, being too reserved or too aggressive in trying to initiate. There's just no formula. It just depends on the person you're on the date with. As far as humor, mine's predominantly the dry type with a little sarcasm and sometimes corniness. People do find me funny. I can be a clown straight-up; it depends on the people and situation. Being self-deprecating and making jokes about yourself might be attractive to some people.

Also, what @Roo Returns said about verbal sparring. That's a component of flirting. In addition to reading about it, watch some rom-coms. Seriously. Although they're obviously scripted, you still can get a sense of what it's like to flirt via verbal jousting.

I just finished some annual compliance training yesterday. I said to my co-worker, damn, I almost flunked blahblahblah (self-deprecating), and she laughed and said she almost did the same with ethics. So, I said jokingly, "I knew you were always unethical."Another time, I was talking to someone else, who was commenting about a third person in the company being a great person, saying, "greater than you and I." So, I just said reflexively, "Oh, c'mon, we both know that you and I are the greatest." (in a way, a flirtatious statement about my relationship with her and a subtle compliment)

I always go back to the subtle, flirtatious jabs that Bill Murray makes at Scarlett Johansson in Lost in Translation. Just make little things funny.

I think the biggest problem I have is that I feel this pressure to flirt rather than have in my toolkit and it's making me shut off. I know some women that I flirt with who I either have no romantic interest or know that it won't work. So it's not like I can't do it. I just don't feel like I can do it on command when I have to.

 

[NYSPORTS]

From what i recall, dating was social whereas some seem to think it's scientific.

 

[New York RKY]

I think the biggest problem I have is that I feel this pressure to flirt rather than have in my toolkit and it's making me shut off. I know some women that I flirt with who I either have no romantic interest or know that it won't work. So it's not like I can't do it. I just don't feel like I can do it on command when I have to.

I had a similar struggle and the reason to me seems to be that I could flirt with people I didn’t have a romantic connection to because there was no pressure there. I wasn’t trying to pursue anything with that person. When you try to force yourself to flirt that’s when it gets really difficult.

If you have a genuine connection with someone, the conversation flows freely, and you are attracted to them the concept of flirting isn’t really something that you think about, it kind of just happens naturally in the conversation.

I just don’t know if you’ve found the right person yet because if you have to analyze the conversation that much that means there’s no natural connection there. From my story earlier I. The thread, I honestly did very little thinking and analyzing when I had my first 4 hour conversation with my girlfriend. Through our conversation flow I was able to move from subject to subject and there was never a moment where we ran out of stuff to talk about.

 

[YoSoyLalo]

From what i recall, dating was social whereas some seem to think it's scientific.

based comment from francesa?

 

[NYSPORTS]

based comment from francesa?

i dated for ova 50 years!!! Ya gadda hav da talk. Widout da talk ya got nuthing. Some got the Objective then you gots the procedure, ya know, the steps, then have to observe the steps and den ya try to formulate dat conclusion and before ya know it she went to bathroom and neva come bak. So i'm tells ya all, ya need da talk or ya got nutting.

bak afta dis

Life is short, live it up

 

[kovazub94]

From what i recall, dating was social whereas some seem to think it's scientific.

If you don't have anything constructive to contribute then try to keep your condescending comments to yourself. Thank you.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

If you don't have anything constructive to contribute then try to keep your condescending comments to yourself. Thank you.

Whoever that was looks like I made the right choice to ignore him.

 

[NYSPORTS]

If you don't have anything constructive to contribute then try to keep your condescending comments to yourself. Thank you.

Happy Holidays to you too. If want constructive (see Jane run) advice, try to be social and not scientific. The woman is a human being and likely wants a social life too. She's out for fun. Being on the receiving end of an interview while a fella collects data or datamines is likely a dead end, a strikeout or downright uncomfortable for the poor woman. Unless you want to date a computer start treating the woman like she's a human. Does that make sense?

Happy Holidays

 

[Harbour Dog]

I think the biggest problem I have is that I feel this pressure to flirt rather than have in my toolkit and it's making me shut off. I know some women that I flirt with who I either have no romantic interest or know that it won't work. So it's not like I can't do it. I just don't feel like I can do it on command when I have to.

I understand the sentiment.

I've always done pretty well with women, and have no problem at all flirting when it feels like I'm taking the initiative; but if I'm put in a situation where I'm supposed to flirt, I can't.

For that reason, I have always found it much, much more effective to meet women outside of situations where I'm blatantly hitting on them. I play a lot of softball and dodgeball (lol), have a couple different groups of friends that do game and/or poker nights, or celebrate birthdays, or go out for an occasional meal together. Those are always the opportunities that I would take to get to know women and to let them get to know me.

Perhaps for you, it is possible that the structure of dating apps is a big handicap for you. I know they certainly would be for me.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I understand the sentiment.

I've always done pretty well with women, and have no problem at all flirting when it feels like I'm taking the initiative; but if I'm put in a situation where I'm supposed to flirt, I can't.

For that reason, I have always found it much, much more effective to meet women outside of situations where I'm blatantly hitting on them. I play a lot of softball and dodgeball (lol), have a couple different groups of friends that do game and/or poker nights, or celebrate birthdays, or go out for an occasional meal together. Those are always the opportunities that I would take to get to know women and to let them get to know me.

Perhaps for you, it is possible that the structure of dating apps is a big handicap for you. I know they certainly would be for me.

Well the thing is outside of the apps on this matchmaking service it's supposed to be much more serious than apps and especially going to the bar hitting on women. I just identified a lack of flirting as the problem because especially in the beginning a lot of the feedback was "gentleman, interesting to talk to, smart, attractive, no romantic connection". It seems like a "friendly" vibe and I assumed what made it friendly was the lack of flirting. I don't know for sure.

 

[romba]

Being yourself is of course KEY, but it's so important in the early stages with women to try to maintain some mystery, anything is ok as long as she's interested in it, just be a little coy with a smile instead of blabbing everything about it at once. And most importantly, be VERY interested in what she has to say. Follow up questions with genuine interests seemed to drive conversations all over the place for me.

 

[ponzu4u]

I think the hardest thing about it is that really the best thing to do is focus on self-improvement, and building yourself into the type of person that not just women, but everyone wants to be with or around. And this is obviously something that basically every person who's ever lived struggles with and for which there isn't really a "correct" answer.

As many people have mentioned, often the most "successful" times in many of our dating/hookup/relationship lives have been when we weren't trying. When we were just acting naturally and women were naturally drawn to that. If you're at a small dinner party and there's one person there who is making everyone laugh, and telling interesting stories and charming the pants off everyone, it's natural and genetic that the women there are going to be drawn to him. It can be easy to hate or dismiss those type of guys, but the truth is, it will benefit you in the long run to try to become that guy -- even if you never get another date in your life. Because the uncomfortable truth is, that guy's life is actually probably better than yours. Why wouldn't you want to be someone who has hobbies, passions, interests? Who's seen and done cool things? Who can relate to just about anyone through depth of experience and wisdom gained from practice? Yeah, you might be the greatest guy in the world inside your own head, but if you don't actualize that during your short time on this earth, what the hell does it matter?

So much gets made about "getting the girl" when in reality just as much if not more is about "what happens next." It's not like some BS rom-com where you fall in love and live happily ever after. Honeymoon phases end. Shit happens. If you want a serious relationship with a quality person who's going to stick by you when the going gets tough (and it will, inevitably - that's life!) then YOU need to be the kind of person that's worth sticking by. And if you truly pursue and cultivate becoming that person, I swear girls will consciously and subconsciously pick up on that and want to be with you.

Everyone (these days especially) thinks they are "special" and "unique" and "deserving of love and happiness." But life doesn't actually give a shit. You need to earn it.