Regarding Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Gurglesons]

MOD OVERRIDE STICKY POST: (ColePens)

It looks like we are going through out stages as this virus frustrates all of us. Anger is quite the overall response right now. I just want to reiterate to please be careful on political discussion. Obviously it will play a slight role but we just have to be aware.

Let's learn to respect and love one another. Heated discussion is good, but learn when to agree to disagree.

Click to read more...

 

[Ogrezilla]

No. The company I work for is honouring all contracts with the janitorial service and all of us are still getting paid.

Doesn't interfere with me donating my money, time and helping the homeless in a country I'm not from.

What are you doing to help, mate.

I think the point is why should the players be the ones responsible for this and not the owners? The owners are the ones not paying the people, and they have way more money than the players. If the players want to help, great. They shouldn't be criticized if they don't though. That's them going above and beyond to make up for a failure of their owners.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think the point is why should the players be the ones responsible for this and not the owners? The owners are the ones not paying the people, and they have way more money than the players. If the players want to help, great. They shouldn't be criticized if they don't though. That's them going above and beyond to make up for a failure of their owners.

No I get that. The players donating should make the teams owners look and feel like shit.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Do NHLers not do this?

Why are you bashing NHLers for not contributing their wages to others if you’re not doing the same? They work a job similar to us. They are compensated at a vastly different scale, but they certainly aren’t lesser people for only donating specific amounts to the staff.

The organization owes it to them, not the laborer. If the organization doesn’t do it, it just reveals what type of ownership they have. Bruins not doing it is literally the least surprising thing I’ve heard all week.

More so out of anger post on my part. But my stance was from the start, the teams should be doing it and not the players. But the teams that aren't and the players are, knowing their teams are not doing much I felt what they did decide to give didn't feel like they understood the impact it has on those full time and part time employees. But yeah the players shouldn't have to do a thing, the owners should.

 

[Gurglesons]

More so out of anger post on my part. But my stance was from the start, the teams should be doing it and not the players. But the teams that aren't and the players are, knowing their teams are not doing much I felt what they did decide to give didn't feel like they understood the impact it has on those full time and part time employees. But yeah the players shouldn't have to do a thing, the owners should.

It’s kinda like how we close “non-essential financial functions” like restaurants and bars. But nobody closes “non-essentially financial functions” like rent or mortgages.

I’m so tired of corporations and hopefully this shit ruins them.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I’m so tired of corporations and hopefully this shit ruins them.

So you want hundreds of thousands of people out of work? Because that's what happens when corps go under

Are there bad corporate actors? Yup
Are there also good corporations? Yes yes

It's almost like corporations are like people where some land on the spectrum of selfish and altruistic. Weird.

 

[Gurglesons]

So you want hundreds of thousands of people out of work? Because that's what happens when corps go under

Are there bad corporate actors? Yup
Are there also good corporations? Yes yes

It's almost like corporations are like people where some land on the spectrum of selfish and altruistic. Weird.

Sure. The world is at a point where we need to have a basic world income and need to focus on community and healing the outrageous extents of late stage capitalism.

This crisis is a perfect example of how stunted the world is.

Business are like people. Corporations are like kings. I hope they all collapse.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Sure. The world is at a point where we need to have a basic world income and need to focus on community and healing the outrageous extents of late stage capitalism.

This crisis is a perfect example of how stunted the world is.

Business are like people. Corporations are like kings. I hope they all collapse.

What's the difference between a Corporation and Business?
Who is going to monitor and establish what the "basic income is"?
Who will distribute it?
Is it going to be based on your area? Standards of living are different across the country

The problem w/ this basic income idea is that it removes incentives for excellence

I bet there are a good percentage of NHL players who play for the money. Same thing with your favorite music and hollywood stars. They found out they were good at something and identified it was the easiest path for $$ and/or stardom

So now we'll have less talented musicians/NHL players to watch. We'll have less entrepreneurial spirit in the US as well

Switzerland has it and it's easier to do in a less populous and homogeneous country. It'd fail in the US or any other country that doesn't have such income disparities

 

[Shady Machine]

What's the difference between a Corporation and Business?
Who is going to monitor and establish what the "basic income is"?
Who will distribute it?
Is it going to be based on your area? Standards of living are different across the country

The problem w/ this basic income idea is that it removes incentives for excellence

I bet there are a good percentage of NHL players who play for the money. Same thing with your favorite music and hollywood stars. They found out they were good at something and identified it was the easiest path for $$ and/or stardom

So now we'll have less talented musicians/NHL players to watch. We'll have less entrepreneurial spirit in the US as well

Switzerland has it and it's easier to do in a less populous and homogeneous country. It'd fail in the US or any other country that doesn't have such income disparities

There is a lot to this topic that needs to be sorted through, but one BIG barrier to entrepreneurship and/or people doing what they are best gifted to do is economic barriers to entry and those are a big concern in America (in my estimation at least). Cost of education, cost of healthcare, and lack of a social safety net DISCOURAGES risk, not the other way around.

I am not arguing for socialized medicine or free college, per se, but let's say you had those things. I graduate college with $0 debt and my healthcare is taken care of. I now have incentive to take a risk because I know I won't go bankrupt if I have a medical emergency or because my business fails to start and I can't afford my student loans (oh wait, I still have to pay my student debt AFTER bankruptcy). Anyway, you get the point.

I should say my personal story is a kid with $45K out of undergrad. I was blessed with a corporate job out of undergrad during the financial crisis, worked hard to pay off that debt so I'm not complaining. Just saying I know many people would consider taking a risk if they knew the economic downside wasn't potentially catastrophic.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

There is a lot to this topic that needs to be sorted through, but one BIG barrier to entrepreneurship and/or people doing what they are best gifted to do is economic barriers to entry and those are a big concern in America (in my estimation at least). Cost of education, cost of healthcare, and lack of a social safety net DISCOURAGES risk, not the other way around.

I am not arguing for socialized medicine or free college, per se, but let's say you had those things. I graduate college with $0 debt and my healthcare is taken care of. I now have incentive to take a risk because I know I won't go bankrupt if I have a medical emergency or because my business fails to start and I can't afford my student loans (oh wait, I still have to pay my student debt AFTER bankruptcy). Anyway, you get the point.

I should say my personal story is a kid with $45K out of undergrad. I was blessed with a corporate job out of undergrad during the financial crisis, worked hard to pay off that debt so I'm not complaining. Just saying I know many people would consider taking a risk if they knew the economic downside wasn't potentially catastrophic.

I agree there are many barriers- everything you said in that regard is very true.

Let's take 1 step back with your scenario: $0 debt and no healthcare to worry about

If my college is paid for, then what's my incentive to do well at university?
What's enticing me to even go and work hard to get a job when I know me and the person next to me are going to get rewarded/paid the same when we graduate?

In regards to healthcare, what's my incentive to eat well? If I balloon to 400lbs it won't hurt my pocket...

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think the vast majority of people WANT to succeed and WANT to make something out of their lives. I think the things you outline would be a reality but I think, much like "welfare abuse," that it would be a massively overblown talking point that represents, in reality, a very small percentage.

 

[Gurglesons]

I agree there are many barriers- everything you said in that regard is very true.

Let's take 1 step back with your scenario: $0 debt and no healthcare to worry about

If my college is paid for, then what's my incentive to do well at university?
What's enticing me to even go and work hard to get a job when I know me and the person next to me are going to get rewarded/paid the same when we graduate?

In regards to healthcare, what's my incentive to eat well? If I balloon to 400lbs it won't hurt my pocket...

College was effectively nothing for the majority of people in their 50s. They seem to have done fine.

The healthcare comment is one of the stupider arguments I’ve seen when arguing these topics.

The fact people think that this current situation is favorably effecting anyone is silly. It suits those that have already obtained wealth or have the opportunity to do something. If you’re poor you stay poor.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

College was effectively nothing for the majority of people in their 50s. They seem to have done fine.

The healthcare comment is one of the stupider arguments I’ve seen when arguing these topics.

The fact people think that this current situation is favorably effecting anyone is silly. It suits those that have already obtained wealth or have the opportunity to do something. If you’re poor you stay poor.

I'm 41, grew up in an area surrounded by drive by shootings. I was the minority when I went outside to shoot hoops.
Went to college FT and worked a FT job- I had zero scholarships available to me. Granted, the cost of college was JUST starting to jump when I was in school, but I still graduated with about $55k loan debt in 2001. Then 9/11 happened. Yea the job prospects for me were zippo

I tightened my belt and paid off that loan in ~7 years. It wasn't easy as I purchased a home and raised 2 kids. Did I want to have discretionary spending and go on vacations and get hammered during that timeframe of college? Duh. There's another thread going on about how college kids spent hardly any dollars on food but kept their loan money for weed and alcohol. I mean I'm not knocking it or jealous, but people can survive and pay down debt if they align their priorities correctly. If I can do it, anyone can.

I use the analogy of people at my work saying "we have a parking problem". Well no, we don't have a parking space problem...we have a walking problem. Because there are spaces, it's just not convenient for people to hike those 50 extra yards.

Same situation here: is it super convenient to not grab that case of beer every week and instead use that to pay your debt? Is it super convenient to make that meal at home or just go out to eat? Nope.
I just dislike people who act entitled in respect to believing there should be an endless spigot of money and somehow things are "free".

If there is no sacrifice, then there is no value.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm 41, grew up in an area surrounded by drive by shootings. I was the minority when I went outside to shoot hoops.
Went to college FT and worked a FT job- I had zero scholarships available to me. Granted, the cost of college was JUST starting to jump when I was in school, but I still graduated with about $55k loan debt in 2001. Then 9/11 happened. Yea the job prospects for me were zippo

I tightened my belt and paid off that loan in ~7 years. It wasn't easy as I purchased a home and raised 2 kids. Did I want to have discretionary spending and go on vacations and get hammered during that timeframe of college? Duh. There's another thread going on about how college kids spent hardly any dollars on food but kept their loan money for weed and alcohol. I mean I'm not knocking it or jealous, but people can survive and pay down debt if they align their priorities correctly. If I can do it, anyone can.

I use the analogy of people at my work saying "we have a parking problem". Well no, we don't have a parking space problem...we have a walking problem. Because there are spaces, it's just not convenient for people to hike those 50 extra yards.

Same situation here: is it super convenient to not grab that case of beer every week and instead use that to pay your debt? Is it super convenient to make that meal at home or just go out to eat? Nope.
I just dislike people who act entitled in respect to believing there should be an endless spigot of money and somehow things are "free".

If there is no sacrifice, then there is no value.

So basically you are scraping by and everyone else should too so corporations can influence every facet of our lives because you did it?

Healthcare and education are a human right. Not sure how that is people being “entitled”.

I graduated with no debt, have lived away from home since I was 18, etc etc etc. Doesn’t mean everyone else should suffer because I did it.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

So basically you are scraping by and everyone else should too so corporations can influence every facet of our lives because you did it?

Healthcare and education are a human right. Not sure how that is people being “entitled”.

I graduated with no debt, have lived away from home since I was 18, etc etc etc. Doesn’t mean everyone else should suffer because I did it.

Are you saying if we eliminate Corps and have basic income Corp's won't exist? I don't think that'll be the case at all. Well unless the government makes it illegal to own any business. That's a scary thought because the US government has a problem delivering mail without issues. And have you seen the VA hospitals with their boondoggles? Not sure I want them in control of my income...

And the states have mandated that K-12 education is a human right. So you may want to amend that to say "higher education".
And there are healthcare safety nets in place too, so I'm not sure that statement holds much water either. Again maybe you meant to say a specific level of education/healthcare?

And not "everyone else" is going to suffer like we did. There are plenty of rich kids who go to college who will still maintain their lifestyle.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are you saying if we eliminate Corps and have basic income Corp's won't exist? I don't think that'll be the case at all. Well unless the government makes it illegal to own any business. That's a scary thought because the US government has a problem delivering mail without issues. And have you seen the VA hospitals with their boondoggles? Not sure I want them in control of my income...

And the states have mandated that K-12 education is a human right. So you may want to amend that to say "higher education".
And there are healthcare safety nets in place too, so I'm not sure that statement holds much water either. Again maybe you meant to say a specific level of education/healthcare?

And not "everyone else" is going to suffer like we did. There are plenty of rich kids who go to college who will still maintain their lifestyle.

This is shifting a little too much into the realm of politics so I’m betting we get dinged by the mods.

My point is that massive corporations control the US. We need a Teddy Roosevelt type to come in and clean this shit up.

Education of any form and healthcare of any form should be a human right as it is in 99% of the developed countries around the globe that are not the US.

Empathy and assistance aren’t bad words and I’m confused when they became so in the US.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

This is shifting a little too much into the realm of politics so I’m betting we get dinged by the mods.

My point is that massive corporations control the US. We need a Teddy Roosevelt type to come in and clean this shit up.

Education of any form and healthcare of any form should be a human right as it is in 99% of the developed countries around the globe that are not the US.

Empathy and assistance aren’t bad words and I’m confused when they became so in the US.

I can't deny that Corps control a MASSIVE TON of info and products as it sits now. I remember seeing a chart somewhere that like 9 corps basically own 90% of products/food/and content that we consume.

That alone is scary...I mean look at Disney and all the stuff they own, including media.

Certainly wish the government would have prevented these essential monopolies. But guess why no one has stepped in and said "hey, maybe this isn't right"? Because politicians have made bribery sanctioned in the form of lobbying

It's a nasty smelling onion because we started talking about businesses and then income and peeling back the layers it all comes down to the government

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Nuke the world and let it start over. We had our chance and f***ed it.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think the vast majority of people WANT to succeed and WANT to make something out of their lives. I think the things you outline would be a reality but I think, much like "welfare abuse," that it would be a massively overblown talking point that represents, in reality, a very small percentage.

Not me, I'd rather be an abject failure so some dope on AM radio can rant about me and or threaten me with physical violence. That seems like the ticket!

 

[Peat]

As someone who's grown up in a country where higher education was (until recently-ish) free at point of use, the idea that with-holding this is needed for ambition and functioning societies seriously doesn't compute. As for the idea that there's no motivation to be healthy in a society with free at point of use healthcare, that's basically saying people have no ambition to be free of pain unless it costs them money. Which sounds a bit out there to me.

Thread subtitle should be changed to “This is it.”.

I wasn't going to go with this isn't it.

 

[The Old Master]

Education of any form and healthcare of any form should be a human right as it is in 99% of the developed countries around the globe that are not the US.

we have that! its that you need to pay for it. why should i pay for someone else's over priced ed. or third world health care. there is a reason.... No-one had ever died trying to paddle a rubber boat from Miami to Cuba. If America is as bad as the left maintains why would anybody risk their life to come here? And why don’t THEY leave?

 

[Gurglesons]

we have that! its that you need to pay for it. why should i pay for someone else's over priced ed. or third world health care. there is a reason.... No-one had ever died trying to paddle a rubber boat from Miami to Cuba. If America is as bad as the left maintains why would anybody risk their life to come here? And why don’t THEY leave?

So we don’t have it.

 

[The Old Master]

So we don’t have it.

we have health care...any one who's ever been to a dr. office along our northern border has seen it full of people from canada. they have the free but they don't have the care. and why should i pay someone for a $100,000 for a degree in basket weaving?

 

[Gurglesons]

we have health care...any one who's ever been to a dr. office along our northern border has seen it full of people from canada. they have the free but they don't have the care. and why should i pay someone for a $100,000 for a degree in basket weaving?

This isn’t true. Why should we pay to bail out the airlines?

 

[ColePens]

Since the topic is appearing in numerous threads, we're going to have a thread for the virus. The rules, as always, apply here. However, due to the sensitivity of the topic, this thread will be closely watched. Therefore...

- No flaming
- No trolling
- No politics
- No spam
- No thread hijacking

If it turns out that everyone gets worked up and can't be civil, then this thread will be closed.