Regarding Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Jaded-Fan]

We built an economic machine to help win WW2. It wasn't on our soil. The countries who won WW2 in Europe were devastated; it's why we created the Marshall Plan for them.

Conversely, we're deconstructing our economy now to its bare essentials now.

Having said all of that, if people are as optimistic as you are potentially they'll be happy tiding themselves over and readying themselves for a BOOM 2H. In which case the short-term government subsidies will work and business won't close. I'm not going to violate the politics thing, so I'll only say that the former host of the Celebrity Apprentice said as much today. Hoping you and him are right, Jaded.

Yes, I certainly am not trying to derail this into politics.

The opposite in fact. Again, the one good that likely comes is a reminder that we are all in this together, United and not divided.

 

[Turin]

This is why society doesn't work. Precisely.

All of that is based around money. Pieces of paper and coin with an imaginary value attached to them. The hypocrisy is astounding. You claim to be the voices for the "collective" yet you are consumed for <insert likely wants rather than needs> that can help YOU. The ironic thing is money is worthless once the world goes to shit. A billionaire will be torn from his empty throne.

The people perpetuating this hysteria are just smarter than the masses. And they get very, very rich off it. And the ground level hysteria are people afraid of their own mortality.

Money is the root of all evil. Government was created to consolidate it.

Well, I agree that fiat currency is not really a good thing.. and that central banks present a huge long term problem. I don’t believe the existence of currency is a bad thing at all, or that a utopia exists under the bedrock of greed. Life is too complex, civilization is precarious.

The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil*

 

[Turin]

Blah. I was just forwarded an article telling the readers to expect long last effects up to 18 months...

Guess I should start growing my own food...

Nothing wrong with being self-sufficient anyway. I’ve wanted to grow/hunt my own food for a while already. For now I just married into a family that has never ending eggs and chicken from their hobby farm.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Disclaimer: I have a very secure job where I can work from home and a decent rainy day fund in the bank. I'm hardly inconvenienced by this social distancing at all. I'm fine with it lasting months. It will protect a lot of my immediate family members.

With that said, a huge amount of young and middle age people live paycheck to paycheck. This shutdown is going to create a major recession that will leave a bunch of those people unemployed or under employed if it drags on much past a few weeks. That is real human suffering too.

That suffering will lead some of these people to spiral into addiction, depression, crime or even suicide. These are real costs beyond dollars and cents. Would you be okay getting a 25 year old hooked on fentanyl to save an 85 year old's life? Two 85 year olds? 20?

I won't judge anyone who has a different opinion on what the right balance is than I do. I don't like seeing people pretend that the only costs of the shut down are financial.

In the case of your above example of the unemployed 25 year old on heroin/fentanyl, her/his issues stemmed from her/his joblessness and financial situation.

Unless you're just trying to make a financial argument and then say "it's not the only perspective" in which case I agree.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

It's acceptable to lock down for 2-3 weeks. Maybe a month. People won't accept longer. As of now it's the immediately obvious thing to do. We'll see how our society feels at the start of April.

People will find ways to adjust, that is our nature. This thing won't be past the embryonic stage in early April in any case. **** hits the fan in late May. That's when it gets real, if the epidemiologists are correct.

 

[Sideline]

In the case of your above example of the unemployed 25 year old on heroin/fentanyl, her/his issues stemmed from her/his joblessness and financial situation.

Unless you're just trying to make a financial argument and then say "it's not the only perspective" in which case I agree.

I was trying to make the point that we can't just say death is worse than economic hardship so quarantine everyone for a year until the vaccine is ready. Economic hardship causes death too.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

I am not sure about that. The human cost will be great, but think back to my war analogy. What happened after the world wars ended? They didn't call the following decades the roaring 20s and Happy Days for no reason..

Umm... The Great Depression?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Umm... The Great Depression?

A decade after the roaring 20s.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Well, I agree that fiat currency is not really a good thing.. and that central banks present a huge long term problem. I don’t believe the existence of currency is a bad thing at all, or that a utopia exists under the bedrock of greed. Life is too complex, civilization is precarious.

The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil*

And we are still ok with millions of human beings being murdered/left to die every single year. Hey, it's not us right?

What's the point of civilization if people can't act in a civilized way?

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

A decade after the roaring 20s.

True..

 

[Pens1566]

True..

Roaring 20s --> Depression --> ???

 

[Kristopher Letang]

We’re basically living like all the bums with no ambition on government cheques right now. The memes, movies and video games are cool for a while but this shit is super boring. Not sure how they do it all year long tbh

 

[Gurglesons]

We’re basically living like all the bums with no ambition on government cheques right now. The memes, movies and video games are cool for a while but this shit is super boring. Not sure how they do it all year long tbh

Reality of the threat. If people want something else they can work and perish.

As soon as the corporations fall from the lack of consumers there will be nothing left but to protect the consumers. Which will be a nice change.

 

[vikingGoalie]

The shortness of breath is the more annoying thing. Like getting winded getting up the stairs or just walking around is frustrating.

get well

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

A decade after the roaring 20s.

Not quite. The Depression started in 1929... ;-)

 

[Factorial]

It's acceptable to lock down for 2-3 weeks. Maybe a month. People won't accept longer. As of now it's the immediately obvious thing to do. We'll see how our society feels at the start of April.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I was trying to make the point that we can't just say death is worse than economic hardship so quarantine everyone for a year until the vaccine is ready. Economic hardship causes death too.

Society will not stand for a long-term quarantine. Not over something with a mortality rate of <.5% for non-seniors. If this was the Spanish Flu again killing 6-10% of people infected, that would be different.

We will quarantine fully but it has to be timed right to get the biggest bang for our buck over a 2-4 week period in terms of flattening that curve. I can't do the integration modeling but my sense is that we're still too early. Right now the distancing thing with MOST people adhering is still the correct course. That will progress with greater adherence mitigating the per-person spreading even as the # of infected grows. At some point we do a full lockdown, 1x-per-3-days-leaving-house kinda deal for 2 weeks but we're not there yet. If we do it too early then the virus explodes again on the other side.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Sounds like you're a risk. If you make it to the other side will you donate money to all the young people who sacrificed their jobs and livelihoods for your well-being?

Based on your emoji logic, I doubt it.

 

[Factorial]

Sounds like you're a risk. If you make it to the other side will you donate money to all the young people who sacrificed their jobs and livelihoods for your well-being?

Based on your emoji logic, I doubt it.

I have three kids so I'm doing that anyway. f*** off.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I have three kids so I'm doing that any way. f*** off.

Strangers are sacrificing their jobs and setting up GoFundMes to tide themselves over for you. You should do more than just protect your own. At least say "Thank You." But you won't, will you?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Society will not stand for a long-term quarantine. Not over something with a mortality rate of <.5% for non-seniors. If this was the Spanish Flu again killing 6-10% of people infected, that would be different.

We will quarantine fully but it has to be timed right to get the biggest bang for our buck over a 2-4 week period in terms of flattening that curve. I can't do the integration modeling but my sense is that we're still too early. Right now the distancing thing with MOST people adhering is still the correct course. That will progress with greater adherence mitigating the per-person spreading even as the # of infected grows. At some point we do a full lockdown, 1x-per-3-days-leaving-house kinda deal for 2 weeks but we're not there yet. If we do it too early then the virus explodes again on the other side.

People are more resilient than you think. They can sacrifice and accept a lot. If they believe that it is necessary. But they do need to believe that it is necessary.

So far I think that they do, and will continue as long as respected medical experts agree that it is needed.

 

[ChaosAgent]

People are more resilient than you think. They can sacrifice and accept a lot. If they believe that it is necessary. But they do need to believe that it is necessary.

So far I think that they do, and will continue as long as respected medical experts agree that it is needed.

You're right.

But playing Devil's Advocate...the trajectory in deaths needs to accelerate for people to keep believing. And quickly.

Also if the government does indeed just give people $1K, $3K, $5K...whatever it is. That would help significantly.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

You're right.

But playing Devil's Advocate...the trajectory in deaths needs to accelerate for people to keep believing. And quickly.

Also if the government does indeed just give people $1K, $3K, $5K...whatever it is. That would help significantly.

Sadly I believe that the deaths are going to climb to levels that will shock people. 100,000 plus in this country alone. Maybe 200,000. Over a million world wide.

That is a change of opinion for me from only a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

You're right.

But playing Devil's Advocate...the trajectory in deaths needs to accelerate for people to keep believing. And quickly.

Also if the government does indeed just give people $1K, $3K, $5K...whatever it is. That would help significantly.

I expect footage of an Italian hospital will go viral and do that, tbh.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We also had the best president in history from an economic, psychological and global context with a cabinet that absolutely supported those methods.

I’m not sure Biden or Trump are anywhere near the leadership FDR even winked at, let alone delivered. I’m not even sure they are on Truman’s level.

Best president? He was a gul dang socialist!

*boos rain down*