Referees: Ref Slaps kid, Brawl Ensues

Goonzilla

Welcome to my house!
Feb 18, 2014
2,528
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The rink ..too often
Not semantics at all.

If I brought this case to the DA, and wanted "assault" charges against any of those parties I would be laughed out of the building.

There is no such thing as "lower level assaults" in New York, if there is no injury there is no assault, it's pretty cut and dry.

Not quite sure what it is with some people. Have you travelled much dude?

If I walked past you on the street and shoved you down on your backside, but you weren't hurt, I will have assaulted you by most any definition on the planet, dictionary, legal or otherwise.

It would appear in New York though, that whatever charge was laid would be called something other than 'assault'. That is semantics.

Is it legal to hit, kick or punch someone without justification where you live as long as you don't cause injury? That's a rhetorical question because you and everyone will know the answer. They just clearly choose to call it something different where you are.

Do you know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in Paris?

It's still a quarter pounder whatever it's called. Not semantics?
 

Goonzilla

Welcome to my house!
Feb 18, 2014
2,528
24
The rink ..too often
I tried to stay out of this link, but that observation brought me in. Without the players, referees wouldn't have a job.

On the flip side, how much hockey or how good would it be without referees?

I know the leagues I play in always have a surplus of players or people wanting to play, but a shortage of refs.

The players pay to play, and have to pay the refs. How would it work out the other way? I imagine where you play it's pretty much the same no?
 

ForeverJerseyGirl

Registered User
Dec 14, 2014
11,854
35
New Jersey
Lol at the posters that keep calling these brats poor abused "children". Or if they're indeed
children, they should've NEVER hit an adult, NEVER. It's simply a cultural taboo, in a civilized
society at least.

Children shouldn't be hitting adults, but adults shouldn't be hitting children, and we would hope that adults, like referees, would set a good example for children, such as not hitting. The referee started the hitting, and really he had no right to hit the athlete like that, and most civilized societies in the modern world would recognize that. Most civilized societies don't just allow referees to slap kids, and honestly child abuse (which the referee arguably committed) is a much more serious social taboo than a child slapping an adult who isn't their parent who hit them first.
 

FLYLine27*

BUCH
Nov 9, 2004
42,410
14
NY
Not quite sure what it is with some people. Have you travelled much dude?

If I walked past you on the street and shoved you down on your backside, but you weren't hurt, I will have assaulted you by most any definition on the planet, dictionary, legal or otherwise.

It would appear in New York though, that whatever charge was laid would be called something other than 'assault'. That is semantics.

Is it legal to hit, kick or punch someone without justification where you live as long as you don't cause injury? That's a rhetorical question because you and everyone will know the answer. They just clearly choose to call it something different where you are.


Do you know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in Paris?

It's still a quarter pounder whatever it's called. Not semantics?

K bud. You were proved wrong, and now you want to try to save some face and call it semantics. Just cause its assault where YOU live, doesn't mean its considered assault where EVERYONE lives. Get out of your bubble, there is a whole world out there.

And where the hell did I say it's legal to do any of those as long as it doesn't result in injury. Did you bother to read any of the post clearly defining what the charge is? Wow. I can assume you are NOT a supervisor wherever the hell you work. Patrol for life huh?
 

Goonzilla

Welcome to my house!
Feb 18, 2014
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The rink ..too often
I don't play. I refereed for 35 years and am now retired and as I said, without the players, no job.

I guess if it's a full time gig a referee might have a different perspective, but by the same token, I'm very thankful to have referees every week; and they all have day jobs too. Undoubtedly most don't/wouldn't do it for free, but by the same token, I don't think it pays handsomely and all the ones I know do it to give back to or gif their love of the game..and you would know it's pretty thankless.

I know there will always be hockey and hockey players, they can play pick up; but there may not always be referees, depending how they are treated, by players, administrators and anyone in the stands.
 

mbhhofr

Registered User
Dec 7, 2010
698
89
Las Vegas
I guess if it's a full time gig a referee might have a different perspective, but by the same token, I'm very thankful to have referees every week; and they all have day jobs too. Undoubtedly most don't/wouldn't do it for free, but by the same token, I don't think it pays handsomely and all the ones I know do it to give back to or gif their love of the game..and you would know it's pretty thankless.

I know there will always be hockey and hockey players, they can play pick up; but there may not always be referees, depending how they are treated, by players, administrators and anyone in the stands.

It's nice to see a player appreciate the need for referees. Over the years, I've been called every name in the book, spit on, had beer poured on me and assaulted a couple of times. One time resulted in the player and his coach being suspended for one year.
 

Goonzilla

Welcome to my house!
Feb 18, 2014
2,528
24
The rink ..too often
K bud. You were proved wrong, and now you want to try to save some face and call it semantics. Just cause its assault where YOU live, doesn't mean its considered assault where EVERYONE lives. Get out of your bubble, there is a whole world out there.

And where the hell did I say it's legal to do any of those as long as it doesn't result in injury. Did you bother to read any of the post clearly defining what the charge is? Wow. I can assume you are NOT a supervisor wherever the hell you work. Patrol for life huh?

Some people are just strange. More concerned with winning the minutiae or insisting there's is bigger. What is it with those types do you reckon? You win..you are the winner.

I always figure they must have some real frustrations going on elsewhere.

I come here to talk and learn more about hockey stuff. You?

FYI, I'm actually not a supervisor because I choose not to be, qualified by exams, but I don't want to be responsible for others, have a whole life outside of the workplace and a work/life balance the envy of everyone I know, including friends who earn a lot more and work a lot harder. They're always working poor guys. I still manage to pull six figures, commensurate with my skills and experience and more than some supervisors.

It never amazes me the pay and conditions some people either have to put up with or perceive of others; because you or others may view it as a lesser profession where you live. Success in life is about choices..and how many you have. I choose where I live, what I do, what schools my kids go to, when and where I want to holiday.

What do you do by the way? I'm sure yours is bigger and better.
 

FLYLine27*

BUCH
Nov 9, 2004
42,410
14
NY
Some people are just strange. More concerned with winning the minutiae or insisting there's is bigger. What is it with those types do you reckon? You win..you are the winner.

I always figure they must have some real frustrations going on elsewhere.

I come here to talk and learn more about hockey stuff. You?

FYI, I'm actually not a supervisor because I choose not to be, qualified by exams, but I don't want to be responsible for others, have a whole life outside of the workplace and a work/life balance the envy of everyone I know, including friends who earn a lot more and work a lot harder. They're always working poor guys. I still manage to pull six figures, commensurate with my skills and experience and more than some supervisors.

It never amazes me the pay and conditions some people either have to put up with or perceive of others; because you or others may view it as a lesser profession where you live. Success in life is about choices..and how many you have. I choose where I live, what I do, what schools my kids go to, when and where I want to holiday.

What do you do by the way? I'm sure yours is bigger and better.

No, its just if you were proven wrong man up? You asked for the statues in New York because you found it hard to believe what i said, I provided it, then you went off on some semantics rant about cheeseburgers.

Just can't stand that, especially from people in the SAME profession as me. I deal with enough street lawyers on a daily basis.
 

Goonzilla

Welcome to my house!
Feb 18, 2014
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It's nice to see a player appreciate the need for referees. Over the years, I've been called every name in the book, spit on, had beer poured on me and assaulted a couple of times. One time resulted in the player and his coach being suspended for one year.

So you must have a better or more qualified opinion on the sections of both the referee and the player who attacked him from behind?

I'll wager the player and coach suspended for a year possibly did a lot less than that player in the video?

For me the ref was out of order, but clearly let the stress of situation get the better of him and affect his decision making. Refs get it wrong, they're human. In spite of that, his actual push, slap or punch or whatever anyone wants to call it was trifling and a lot lower down on any scale than the subsequent attack on him from the other player from behind.

The two games or whatever he got mentioned earlier wouldn't instill a lot of confidence in me if I was a referee wanting a message sent by hockey administrators. It sets a very low benchmark or precedent.
 

Goonzilla

Welcome to my house!
Feb 18, 2014
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No, its just if you were proven wrong man up? You asked for the statues in New York because you found it hard to believe what i said, I provided it, then you went off on some semantics rant about cheeseburgers.

Just can't stand that, especially from people in the SAME profession as me. I deal with enough street lawyers on a daily basis.

Well you'll know then two people don't always see the same thing the same way who may have seen the same thing.

As I said before, you were right about New York, but I am not wrong. Check any dictionary, which is probably more universal by way of definition than any local statutes.

Next time I'm in New York, I'll know that if I assault anyone, I'll probably only be charged with such if I cause them an injury and clearly intended to or was reckless about it, otherwise they'll charge me with something else, ultimately merely because their law makers chose to make that element a point of differentiation in their definitions around such laws.
 
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mbhhofr

Registered User
Dec 7, 2010
698
89
Las Vegas
So you must have a better or more qualified opinion on the sections of both the referee and the player who attacked him from behind?

I'll wager the player and coach suspended for a year possibly did a lot less than that player in the video?


I do not approve of any official striking a player. Protect yourself in a non violent way and let the league handle the discipline.

As for the player and coach, my situation was different. It was an International Midget Tournament in Edina, Minnesota. Teams from Winnipeg and Chicago were playing the championship game. Winnipeg vastly outplayed the Chicago team, shots on goal were 52-16, but Chicago won the game. It wasn't a chippy game at all. The game ended while play was in the Chicago end of the ice. The Winnipeg bench emptied and rushed the Chicago players, my partner and myself. One player was coming at me full speed and knocked me onto my back. He then put his hands around my throat and started squeezing. Not only was I trying to get him off of me but I also was trying to prevent the skates of other players who were mixing it up from striking me in the head and face.

After everything was over and we were in the dressing room, one of the Edina Police Officers, who was security at the rink, came in and asked if I wanted to press charges. I declined.

I'm originally from Winnipeg but was now living in the Twin Cities and I knew the Referee In Chief of the Manitoba Hockey Association. I called him when I got home and told him what happened. A couple of days later I got a call at work from the President of the MAHA and was on the phone with him for 45 minutes. The eventual outcome was the year suspensions. International cooperation. I had a sore throat for a few days.
 

selyak

Registered User
Dec 1, 2015
16
0
Philadelphia
If it helps any of you guys, the common law definition of "assault" is an attempt or threat to commit a battery. The common law definition of a "battery" is an unconsented to touching. New York's definition of "assault" is in derogation of the common law and is therefore not the way the word is most commonly understood.

Oh, in case you haven't noticed, I'm a lawyer too. A criminal defense lawyer at that.
 

DyerMaker66*

Guest
Lol at the posters that keep calling these brats poor abused "children". Or if they're indeed
children, they should've NEVER hit an adult, NEVER. It's simply a cultural taboo, in a civilized
society at least.

:amazed: What?!? It's taboo for a child to hit an adult who's hit them, but not for an adult to randomly hit a child?

Sorry, but you have this backwards: An adult should NEVER hit a child, NEVER. An your point of view is quite honestly disgusting.
 
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Goonzilla

Welcome to my house!
Feb 18, 2014
2,528
24
The rink ..too often
If it helps any of you guys, the common law definition of "assault" is an attempt or threat to commit a battery. The common law definition of a "battery" is an unconsented to touching. New York's definition of "assault" is in derogation of the common law and is therefore not the way the word is most commonly understood.

Oh, in case you haven't noticed, I'm a lawyer too. A criminal defense lawyer at that.

As I was saying..works just fine for me.

Got an opinion?
 

DyerMaker66*

Guest
Watch the video again,

He slaps the kid once....a few seconds goes by and he gets attacked,
A few seconds? It's almost instantaneous, nice attempt at spin, though.


And you are a first class moron if you think what the second kid did was "justifiable" hate to be blunt, but there really is no other way to put it.
Don't worry, that's how I feel about you people who are defending child abuse. There's really no way around: The guy hit a kid for no reason and got hit by a kid for it.

You dudes can be idiots and support power abuse and child abuse, but I won't.

The ref screwed up, absolutely, no reason to slap a kid in the helmet, but holy christ man, think for once, the kid...was wearing...a helmet...and absorbed, a short...cuff...to the side...of the head...
What does that have to do with the ref attacking a child? Maybe he's emotional scarred him for life, who knows?

From similar point of view, the ref was also protected by a helmet from this kid

I had to spell that out there, because you seem to believe the ref cold-cocked him from behind and didn't let up....oh wait...that was the other kid, who didn't even see what happened....
The ref was unconscious? Again, your spinning things to make it seem like he didn't hit a defenseless person.
BTW, try explaining self defense...when the kid who attacked him, DIDN'T SEE WHAT HAPPENED.

Easy, he heard the kid who got hit say he just hit him? Maybe you're deaf on the ice, but I'm not.
 

DyerMaker66*

Guest
Haven't checked this thread until now, but yes, I do want him banned for life for viciously assaulting an official. He doesn't deserve a second chance, nor does the official.

So the kid should be treated like a murderer? Worse than thieves?
 

DyerMaker66*

Guest
Number 15 should be banned for life. He attacked the ref from behind.
I don't give a **** that the ref slapped one of his teammates.

As for the ref, he should be suspended for the season.

The ref may have started it by slapping the kid but the response by the other team especially #15 was over the top.

It's quite clear that you do when you suggest he should be suspended for this season.
 

Trigger96

Registered User
Mar 3, 2006
446
1
I tried to stay out of this link, but that observation brought me in. Without the players, referees wouldn't have a job.

I think what he means is that you can never run out of players, but referee's are becoming harder to find because of the abuse they endure and incidents like these for example.
 

FLYLine27*

BUCH
Nov 9, 2004
42,410
14
NY
Well you'll know then two people don't always see the same thing the same way who may have seen the same thing.

As I said before, you were right about New York, but I am not wrong. Check any dictionary, which is probably more universal by way of definition than any local statutes.

Next time I'm in New York, I'll know that if I assault anyone, I'll probably only be charged with such if I cause them an injury and clearly intended to or was reckless about it, otherwise they'll charge me with something else, ultimately merely because their law makers chose to make that element a point of differentiation in their definitions around such laws.
Yea but you added in "semantics", kinda a nice slap in the face which wasn't warranted to since I was actually going by legal definitions in NY. I didnt start my post being a jerk, i clearly stated I was going by New York laws.

And yes, you can come to NY, and shove someone to the ground. If they don't have an injury, you will be charged with harassment in the 2nd degree, no worse than a speeding ticket.
 

FLYLine27*

BUCH
Nov 9, 2004
42,410
14
NY
If it helps any of you guys, the common law definition of "assault" is an attempt or threat to commit a battery. The common law definition of a "battery" is an unconsented to touching. New York's definition of "assault" is in derogation of the common law and is therefore not the way the word is most commonly understood.

Oh, in case you haven't noticed, I'm a lawyer too. A criminal defense lawyer at that.

Thank you.
 

GoldenBearHockey

Registered User
Jan 6, 2014
9,640
3,988
A few seconds? It's almost instantaneous, nice attempt at spin, though.



Don't worry, that's how I feel about you people who are defending child abuse. There's really no way around: The guy hit a kid for no reason and got hit by a kid for it.

You dudes can be idiots and support power abuse and child abuse, but I won't.


What does that have to do with the ref attacking a child? Maybe he's emotional scarred him for life, who knows?

From similar point of view, the ref was also protected by a helmet from this kid


The ref was unconscious? Again, your spinning things to make it seem like he didn't hit a defenseless person.


Easy, he heard the kid who got hit say he just hit him? Maybe you're deaf on the ice, but I'm not.

You might the only person who is calling this child abuse,

Again, WATCH THE VIDEO AGAIN, better yet, just....turn off the computer...it's better for everyone involved....it's pointless to argue with you, you certainly have no idea what goes on out there....to even try and justify the attack by the player on the ref is asinine, and absolutely no one is defending the ref, you do realize that BOTH can be wrong, right? Yea..didn't think you did....
 

selyak

Registered User
Dec 1, 2015
16
0
Philadelphia
As I was saying..works just fine for me.

Got an opinion?

I would have to know more about exactly what happened (I've seen a lot of cases where things look a certain way in a video, but once you get into the nitty gritty of what exactly happened and you question the people involved, your perception of the video changes), but under most circumstances, I would say that a referee hitting a player is an assault.

When you play a sport, especially a sport like hockey, you "consent" to a lot of the hitting that happens in the sense that you know that is part of the game and you still play the game. But you do not consent to being hit by the referee under any circumstances.

i would also say that the second kid that went after the referee also committed an assault because, even if he was coming to his teammate's defense, his response was not proportional to the threat.

Do I think anyone should be arrested or charged for what happened? No. But I do think there should be some kind of organizational discipline for everyone involved, the players and the referee.
 

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