Red Wings Sell Out Their Brand (New Presenting Sponsor)

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
How is what Amway does any different than any other franchise oriented business? Amway's products are all **** and therefore you won't make any money on your franchise, but as a business it's no different than Avon or McDonalds.

you need to decide if this is about Amway or about corporate sponsorship... you keep moving the goalposts.

1) Comparing Amway to Avon or lets say Mark Kay (minus the pink Cadillac's) is fair game; only throw in a heaping helping of extreme right zealotry.

2) Like Wingman, my problems isnt with the concept or Corporate Sponsorships, its with Amway.

I know about their business practices. Did you know that numerous federal governments in multiple countries have dismissed claims that Amway is a pyramid scheme or otherwise a criminal organization?

That's a massive, massive, massive, massive stretch. You're lumping the entire self-help movement (which I think we can all agree is generally crap) with Synanon and Jonestown here.

Then your also aware that multiple charges, civil & criminal have in fact been upheld & awarded against them, and no, the indoctrination, the core philosophies share much with Synanonistic theory. Deconstruction of the individual.
 

crashman

Guest
I know about their business practices. Did you know that numerous federal governments in multiple countries have dismissed claims that Amway is a pyramid scheme or otherwise a criminal organization?

I honestly don't, but acting criminally and practicing good ethics are two different things. I'm not 100% sure what the definition of what a pyramid scheme is, but I do understand how being an Amway IBO works and I still consider them a pyramid scheme, I don't care what the courts say.

Like so many other controversial corporations out there, I'm know they've kept themselves out of trouble a few times by just settling out of court.
 

Brodie

the dream of the 90s is alive in Detroit
Mar 19, 2009
15,399
359
Chicago
1) Comparing Amway to Avon or lets say Mark Kay (minus the pink Cadillac's) is fair game; only throw in a heaping helping of extreme right zealotry.

2) Like Wingman, my problems isnt with the concept or Corporate Sponsorships, its with Amway.

So the issue is less with the corporation and more with the political and religious philosophy of their owners? Got it.


Then your also aware that multiple charges, civil & criminal have in fact been upheld & awarded against them, and no, the indoctrination, the core philosophies share much with Synanonistic theory. Deconstruction of the individual.

You're talking about Amway distributor groups, not Amway itself.

The only judgments against them have been the tax evasion case in Canada and a fine for false advertising. They've settled several cases out of court, but that's not the same thing as you know.
 

Brodie

the dream of the 90s is alive in Detroit
Mar 19, 2009
15,399
359
Chicago
I honestly don't, but acting criminally and practicing good ethics are two different things. I'm not 100% sure what the definition of what a pyramid scheme is, but I do understand how being an Amway IBO works and I still consider them a pyramid scheme, I don't care what the courts say.

Like so many other controversial corporations out there, I'm know they've kept themselves out of trouble a few times by just settling out of court.

but

like

you choose to become an Amway IBO. nobody forces you to buy a franchise. It's like buying a McDonalds franchise that fails and then claiming that McDonalds is unethical.
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

HFWF Tourney Undisputed Champion
Apr 30, 2004
32,442
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Lansing, MI
What's with Detroit teams pairing with skeevy corp's anyway? I'd rather live on the streets homeless than work for Amway, and Rock Financial/Quicken is notorious for loaning out high interests loans to just about anyone, and also selling off the loans they write immediately to someone else, and helping us create the massive mortgage crisis and all the confusion that entails. Of course I have a couple buddies who work for Quicken and hear stories about how they rip people off all the time as well. Of course with the Pistons, its not like a brand that could really be hurt by any moves anyway.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
So the issue is less with the corporation and more with the political and religious philosophy of their owners? Got it...... You're talking about Amway distributor groups, not Amway itself.

Actually no Brodie, my issue is with the Corporation, its fundamentals, its Mission Statement, its modus-operandi. The majority of independent distributors simply dont know what their doing, having lost their free-will through indoctrination, perpetuated through further brainwashing techniques visa-vie their Conferences, Workshops & Seminars. Massive peer pressure. Conform. Comply. Assimilate or face castigation. Often joining during periods in their lives of loss, loneliness, financial difficulties, emotional problems. Very reminiscent of the types you see handing out copies of the Watch Tower dressed in their Sunday Best on streetcorners. Very sincere, the lights appear to be on, but........ The Amway Executives become their New Messiahs'.
 

crashman

Guest
but

like

you choose to become an Amway IBO. nobody forces you to buy a franchise. It's like buying a McDonalds franchise that fails and then claiming that McDonalds is unethical.

What? I was never an Amway IBO, I just said I know how it works. I don't understand what you're saying.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
but...like...you choose to become an Amway IBO. nobody forces you to buy a franchise. It's like buying a McDonalds franchise that fails and then claiming that McDonalds is unethical.

Its nothing at all like buying a McDonalds, Arbys' or any other kind of franchise. That actually takes some real money, due dilly & is in no way delivered in a "hard sell" environment. Once again, app. 2% of the people who get involved with Amway actually make any money. When the other 98% fail, they are blamed. Peer pressure & its structures are such that Amway gets away with it. To become an IBO, investment initially is minimal, unlike a traditional franchise where your looking at $100,000+ minimum, often well north of $500K. Pyramid Schemes & MLM benefits only a few at start-up at the top. Everyone else is just fodder; expendable. You simply cannot compare an Amway IBO to a Ruby Tuesdays or Boston Pizza etc. Totally different world.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
In what way does it "cheapen it"? Do board ads "cheapen" your game experience? Do corporate arena names "cheapen" the arena experience? It's a logo that will appear around the arena and on tickets. It means absolutely nothing except to the moralist crowd and the usual "WAAAAH CORPORATIONS WAAAAH" folks.

My favorite soccer team is currently the only one in the EPL without a shirt sponsor and you know what? I'd trade the clean kit look for the money in a heartbeat. Sports is a business, pretending otherwise in 2011 is just silliness.

It cheapens it because the Wings are considered the gold standard of the league, and they're in bed now with a company whose name is synonymous with cheap, pyramid-like, untrustworthy.... you name it. It doesn't really matter how much of it is true, it's the perception of that brand. If you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.

It's the first time in my life as a Wings fan that I have been embarrassed over something the franchise has done. I'm not going to apologize for it because I'd be lying if I said it doesn't bother me.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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What's with Detroit teams pairing with skeevy corp's anyway? I'd rather live on the streets homeless than work for Amway, and Rock Financial/Quicken is notorious for loaning out high interests loans to just about anyone, and also selling off the loans they write immediately to someone else, and helping us create the massive mortgage crisis and all the confusion that entails. Of course I have a couple buddies who work for Quicken and hear stories about how they rip people off all the time as well. Of course with the Pistons, its not like a brand that could really be hurt by any moves anyway.

Tom Wilson?


PNC Bank is the Piston's presenting sponsor currently, not Rock Financial any longer. I think PNC started with them in 2009.
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

HFWF Tourney Undisputed Champion
Apr 30, 2004
32,442
9,701
Lansing, MI
Tom Wilson?


PNC Bank is the Piston's presenting sponsor currently, not Rock Financial any longer. I think PNC started with them in 2009.

Well I can't whine about PNC since im a member. Excellent customer service, some nice cool banking features, and I think they're highly well regarded in their business circle. I usually prefer credit unions but don't have anything bad to say about em.

Seems weird the Pistons would want to be with Rock anyway since Quicken is owned by the Cavs guy anyway.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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Well I can't whine about PNC since im a member. Excellent customer service, some nice cool banking features, and I think they're highly well regarded in their business circle. I usually prefer credit unions but don't have anything bad to say about em.

Seems weird the Pistons would want to be with Rock anyway since Quicken is owned by the Cavs guy anyway.

I could be wrong, but I think that one of the Cavaliers owners is also a Michigan guy. His name came up during the chatter about Pistons potential owners when Karen Davidson was trying to sell the team. I don't remember when he bought into the Cavs (too lazy to look it up), but it's possible the Rock Financial deal pre-dates his affiliation with the Cavs. Just a thought.

(Edit: Agree about PNC. I use their banking services too.)
 

The Bob Cole

Ohhhh Baby.
Apr 18, 2004
7,700
11
Centre Ice
Well of course you wouldnt see it there yet, their just getting started. Just take a look at the logo Wingman posted........ now, you dont see anything wrong with that?. In any form?. IMO it cheapens the logo & the trademark. If it was Goodyear, Ford or Budweiser, something complimentary, respected & respectable, secure, no problem. Perhaps someone from Orlando (Amway Center) or San Jose (Earthquake have Amway as their jersey sponsors) could weigh in with an opinion if theyve ever born witness to or been the recipient of their over zealous proselytizing of the Religion of Amway at a Magic or soccer game.....

I dont have a problem with the concept of "Presentation Rights", just that particular sponsor. It may be hypocritical as I dont have a problem with liquor, beer or even tobacco sponsorships, all perfectly legal substances, whereas Amway I find repugnant, odious, morally offensive & insulting to ones intelligence. I dont want to see the name anywhere. Period. In 1997, they actually tried to re-brand themselves & changed their name to Quixtar in the hopes that people would forget about their unsavory reputation & past. Amongst other things; accusing the Chairman of Proctor & Gamble of being "the leader of the Church of Satan" & the old P&G logo as being a Pentagram; fined 10's of million here in Canada for Criminal Conspiracy to avoid paying taxes; ripping off copyrighted music from RIIA for use in their promotional videos etc etc etc.....

Right, that's fine, I'm not arguing over whether or not they are the right sponsor. But Fugu was getting antsy on the first page saying it's all downhill from here for the league when in reality many teams use these sponsorship methods already.

I'm not here to say whether or not they are a good company, just to comment on whether or not it's ok for teams in the league to find sponsors to help initiatives with the teams that they don't have the money to do on their own.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
Right, that's fine, I'm not arguing over whether or not they are the right sponsor... I'm not here to say whether or not they are a good company, just to comment on whether or not it's ok for teams in the league to find sponsors to help initiatives with the teams that they don't have the money to do on their own.

Oh for sure. The Canucks (and other teams) in partnership with McDonalds Ronald McDonald House; the sponsors who stepped up to the plate in promoting the teams 40th you cited earlier; lots of cases of complimentary & beneficial sponsors so yes, I agree they have their place provided care & discretion is used logistically & executionally. Fact is though, I dont care for on-ice or rink-board ads, "game presentations" with commercials & draws, pre-recorded music. Id be what you'd call a Neanderthal. Rarely have I seen anything truly "complimentary" to the team or game itself in terms of sponsorships, but it is what it is and we cant turn the clock back. The franchises (and the league) depend on that revenue, in many cases the difference between losing a little or a lot, turning a profit. Suite sales etc. Its all tied together. Its all for sale. I believe we will eventually see naming rights sold to the leagues Silverware, ad patches on jerseys. Certain categories & firms with either controversial & or notorious reputations however should be weeded out. Its one thing to set up a Red Light District, quite another who you let in.
 

Eaglepride*

Guest
It cheapens it because the Wings are considered the gold standard of the league, and they're in bed now with a company whose name is synonymous with cheap, pyramid-like, untrustworthy.... you name it. It doesn't really matter how much of it is true, it's the perception of that brand. If you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.

It's the first time in my life as a Wings fan that I have been embarrassed over something the franchise has done. I'm not going to apologize for it because I'd be lying if I said it doesn't bother me.

Thanks exactly my thoughts this has been a very bad offseason as a wingsfan especially the selling out.

The Wings are rightfully holding themselves to a high standard (taking care of players, fans, families and make the team actually a family) companies like Amway are operating with a pyramide system, which is - lets face it - the exact opposite of what the Wings are standing for.

Pyramide system ->first guys are making money by utilizing the down-guys (fresh starters) money.

Something a lot of people here are overlooking is the fact, that this is just the start nor the end, can't you see a trend?

1. corporate logos on practice jerseys
2. third gear
3. team presented by "..."
4. ads on team jerseys!
5. more ads on team jerseys
6. teams named AFTER sponsors
7. ?
8. profit
9. ?
.....

This so reminds on how all this sponsorscrap started in Europe if you guys don't fight it you'll have the same problem in NA, mark my words.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
Right, that's fine, I'm not arguing over whether or not they are the right sponsor. But Fugu was getting antsy on the first page saying it's all downhill from here for the league when in reality many teams use these sponsorship methods already.

I'm not here to say whether or not they are a good company, just to comment on whether or not it's ok for teams in the league to find sponsors to help initiatives with the teams that they don't have the money to do on their own.


It's all linked though. It's really about how intrusive you allow the sponsors to be.

Do you believe that a team sponsor would rather have one static ad on the board, or one on the player jersey if that were allowed? I'd say they'd like to have the ability to put in the jersey because that gets replicated and sold to thousands of fans, so they have all these mini ads that proliferate and aren't confined to the arena. Also, you see the players the entire time during a game, not just hope that the camera glances by your spot on the boards. The TV-only ads behind the goalie nets are an example of how the sponsors want their commercial visible when the fans are actually watching (during playing time).

What I'm 'antsy' about is that every time I see anything with the Wings logo now, I also will see another company's logo paired with it. It's like they're married now, synonymous. Obviously what makes this completely unacceptable to me personally is that I loathe the choice of sponsor selected for this level of intrusiveness and proximity to something I love. The Wings logo is a stand-alone, Original Six, that has come to represent something in the sports world. Snuggling up to it something that I cannot believe they'd actually want anywhere close to their brand. To many people, the other brand has many negative connotations associated with it.

Why would the Wings organization do this for a paltry sum of money? (We don't know the exact figure, but high six figures or low sevens is worth the risk to their brand.) Furthermore when you have owners from the other company who are very active politically/religiously, isn't there a risk that you turn away your fans who are at the other extreme? That's why its not a good idea to mix sports with politics and religion, in my humble opinion. Sports is only divisive along competitive lines amongst teams. Fans shouldn't have to worry about their team "supporting" a group that will fight for values that they abhor.
 

Jonas1235

Registered User
Jan 8, 2008
4,611
90
Calgary
If this makes the team another 10 million a year, would people still have a problem with it?

Sports sold it's soul to companies a long time ago.

Every professional soccer stadium now has a ring of ads around the field when there is no purpose to have them.

Every CFL stadium has ads on those standing billboards on the sidelines.

Every hockey arena in the WORLD has advertising on the boards. Even the ones with no spectactor seating.

Every baseball stadium is covered in ads.

Every professional soccer jersey in the world has ads on them. Some of those companies paying 20 million a year to the club.

It's everywhere people. Even on kids playing midget hockey.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
I'm sure the tobacco companies would pay more than any other sponsor.

Why aren't there more tobacco sponsorships? Cigarettes are still legal.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
It's everywhere people. Even on kids playing midget hockey.

Sure its everywhere, and I've come to accept it. The first time I saw rink board advertising was during the 72 Summit Series, Eagleson selling space to his buddies at Air Canada. Quick cash & free flights, right into the old jeans. By the late 70's it was everywhere, wall-to-wall. It probably contributed to Conn Smythe's demise in 1980, seeing Hersheys', Pizza Pizza, Molsons etc plastered all over his once proud cathedral that for over 40yrs bore nothing but the Queens' portrait and a small unobtrusive "Export A" logo on the score clock.

Everyones sold out. They have to. Need the money. That doesnt mean you need to drop your standards for a few Drachmas. If your known by the friends you keep then surely a team is known by the sponsors it works with as well no?. I sure as Hell would not support any franchise that works with Amway nor for that matter any MLM company. I'll put up with the advertising provided the companies are ethical and share similar values to the teams they support in providing a competitive and quality product. What I wouldnt stand for is seeing the Wings, Leafs, Preds' or the NHL in totality signing deals with any company that employs predatory practices. This one crosses that line, and I dont care how much its worth because guess what?. My morals arent for sale..... cant lease or rent them either. Are you suggesting an Indecent Proposal Sir?. :laugh:
 
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obsenssive*

Guest
I'm sure the tobacco companies would pay more than any other sponsor.

Why aren't there more tobacco sponsorships? Cigarettes are still legal.

not sure I'm following.. are you implying Amway is a public health risk?
 

Brodie

the dream of the 90s is alive in Detroit
Mar 19, 2009
15,399
359
Chicago
how is saying "we're not going to advertise products that kill people" hypocritical? Amway's never killed anybody.
 

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