Red Wings best young player voting - #1

[MBH]

Dude, we are 30/31 in team SV %.

You gotta stop isolating stats like this and thinking it is going to tell you everything. Hronek is getting all of the tough assignments on a team with god awful goaltending. Obviously his GA/60 is going to be bad.

And you should not ignore data just because it's uncomfortable for your opinion.

Sure. But his GA/60 is virtually the same as Bowey's - and Bowey is considered a disaster.
His GA/60 is 1/2 goal higher than Cholo - and we know what people think of his GA.

And yes, I know Hronek generally plays tougher minutes.

But his defensive play needs a ton of work.

Hronek's on ice save percentage is the 2nd lowest on the D. Only Bowey's is lower.

 

[Henkka]

The poll says "young." not rookie.

Yeah, this time we go with the "waiver" status.

Hronek will lose it after 160 games.

It's really tough to draw a perfect line, who should be in the voting and who shoudn't. This kind of limits like "rookie" (25 NHL games) or waiver eligibility (160 or 80 games, depending on when ELC signed) are easy to check and base the polls on those. I could be more detailed, but this time I wanted to go easy. Just takes too much time to check every possible guy, and even then it leads to debate in here, who should and shoudn't.

Still, even this waiver eligibility will leave a guy like Turgeon out, who in certain circumstances could have some future at Detroit.

 

[SirloinUB]

The poll says "young." not rookie.

Thanks for your invaluable input but obviously I consider Hronek in a different tier than everyone else at this point of their careers.

He is established and will not see the AHL again. Notice how our young guys were assigned to the AHL with the bye week and ASG? Notice Hronek was not included? He is clearly at a different spot in the organization than the rest of these guys.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

And you should not ignore data just because it's uncomfortable for your opinion.

Sure. But his GA/60 is virtually the same as Bowey's - and Bowey is considered a disaster.
His GA/60 is 1/2 goal higher than Cholo - and we know what people think of his GA.

And yes, I know Hronek generally plays tougher minutes.

But his defensive play needs a ton of work.

Hronek's on ice save percentage is the 2nd lowest on the D. Only Bowey's is lower.

Hronek's save percentage?

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

It was tossup between Seider and Hronek to me but I went with Mo

 

[Frk It]

And you should not ignore data just because it's uncomfortable for your opinion.

Sure. But his GA/60 is virtually the same as Bowey's - and Bowey is considered a disaster.
His GA/60 is 1/2 goal higher than Cholo - and we know what people think of his GA.

And yes, I know Hronek generally plays tougher minutes.

But his defensive play needs a ton of work.

Hronek's on ice save percentage is the 2nd lowest on the D. Only Bowey's is lower.

Doesn’t make me uncomfortable at all, it just lacks context.

There are some guys on this team where we have a sub-900 SV% when they are out there. How do we know if they are contributing to that or just happen to have crap goaltending while they are out there? With how up and down the goaltending has been this year, and overall poor it's been, I don't know that GA/60 is going to give you a great indication of how well these guys are playing defensively this year with the shit show we have had in net so far.

If you want to say I think he is bad defensively because when I watch him he does X, Y, Z, I can totally understand that and would agree it is the #1 thing Hronek needs to continue to work on. I do not think he excels there at the current moment either.

 

[MBH]

Doesn’t make me uncomfortable at all, it just lacks context.

There are some guys on this team where we have a sub-900 SV% when they are out there. How do we know if they are contributing to that or just happen to have crap goaltending while they are out there? With how up and down the goaltending has been this year, and overall poor it's been, I don't know that GA/60 is going to give you a great indication of how well these guys are playing defensively this year with the **** show we have had in net so far.

If you want to say I think he is bad defensively because when I watch him he does X, Y, Z, I can totally understand that and would agree it is the #1 thing Hronek needs to continue to work on. I do not think he excels there at the current moment either.

He does poorly defensively for several reasons.
He's not all that fast. He's small and struggles in front of the net and on the boards against strong forward with longer reach. He's young and prone to coverage mistakes. And he coughs up the puck too much.

I've said 5-6 times that I have hope for Hronek on the defensive side of the game because he competes. He plays bigger than he is.
But right now, he's struggling.

As for context, the context is within the Red Wings' defensive core.
I'm not comparing him to Nashville or Minnesota or Boston.
I'm comparing him to his own team.
His CF% is OK for this team (3rd).
His SF% is OK for this team (4th after removing Hickets and Lashoff)
His GF% is good for this team (3rd after eliminating Lashoff and Dekeyser).

But that's because he provides some offense. He's 2nd to Bowey in GF/60.
But he's second last in GF/60 among 400-minute D.

On-ice sv percentage only explains away so much.
88.89 is second lowest to Bowey;s 88.69.
But this isn't like AA's 84.77 or Flip's 85.36 or even Glendening's 86.9.
Those save percentages are pretty close to the norm on the Wings.

I'm seeing some people in here talk about Hronek like he's already a really, really, good defenseman.
And I don't see that as accurate. I see people saying there's no reason he can't be like Letang or Subban, who were two of the best in the last 10 years. And I think that kind of talk just sets him to fail to meet expectations.

Right now...
If everything turns out well, I see Seider/Hronek playing 1RD/2RD, with Seider handling matchups and PK and Hronek handing the PP.
Depending on who we have at LD, that could be very good for Detroit.

At the end of the day, I see Hronek being a lot like the guy I hoped XO would be - but on the right side.

 

[MBH]

Hronek's save percentage?

Near the lowest on the team - but close to the norm. Nothing like AA/Flip or even Glendening.

 

[Frk It]

He does poorly defensively for several reasons.
He's not all that fast. He's small and struggles in front of the net and on the boards against strong forward with longer reach. He's young and prone to coverage mistakes. And he coughs up the puck too much.

I've said 5-6 times that I have hope for Hronek on the defensive side of the game because he competes. He plays bigger than he is.
But right now, he's struggling.

As for context, the context is within the Red Wings' defensive core.
I'm not comparing him to Nashville or Minnesota or Boston.
I'm comparing him to his own team.
His CF% is OK for this team (3rd).
His SF% is OK for this team (4th after removing Hickets and Lashoff)
His GF% is good for this team (3rd after eliminating Lashoff and Dekeyser).

But that's because he provides some offense. He's 2nd to Bowey in GF/60.
But he's second last in GF/60 among 400-minute D.

On-ice sv percentage only explains away so much.
88.89 is second lowest to Bowey;s 88.69.
But this isn't like AA's 84.77 or Flip's 85.36 or even Glendening's 86.9.
Those save percentages are pretty close to the norm on the Wings.

I'm seeing some people in here talk about Hronek like he's already a really, really, good defenseman.
And I don't see that as accurate. I see people saying there's no reason he can't be like Letang or Subban, who were two of the best in the last 10 years. And I think that kind of talk just sets him to fail to meet expectations.

Right now...
If everything turns out well, I see Seider/Hronek playing 1RD/2RD, with Seider handling matchups and PK and Hronek handing the PP.
Depending on who we have at LD, that could be very good for Detroit.

At the end of the day, I see Hronek being a lot like the guy I hoped XO would be - but on the right side.

I don’t know that you’re following the conversation that well. I said he is most likely to be a Justin Faulk kind of guy but said if his defense gets better then maybe more.

I also said he is a top 30ish point producer at his position... not a top 30 player.

Fact is we have not had a guy his age put up points like this at his position on this team in a very long time. Lots of young guys have started out raw defensively and improved there as he got older. Kronwall was like that. I have no clue how much he’ll be able to improve defensively. But he is also not a finished product yet, so we will see.

 

[MBH]

I don’t know that you’re following the conversation that well. I said he is most likely to be a Justin Faulk kind of guy but said if his defense gets better then maybe more.

I also said he is a top 30ish point producer at his position... not a top 30 player.

Fact is we have not had a guy his age put up points like this at his position on this team in a very long time. Lots of young guys have started out raw defensively and improved there as he got older. Kronwall was like that. I have no clue how much he’ll be able to improve defensively. But he is also not a finished product yet, so we will see.

I think Faulk might be a good comparable. I don't see him skating quite as well or being quite as finesse. But I see more heart in his game.

 

[Frk It]

I think Faulk might be a good comparable. I don't see him skating quite as well or being quite as finesse. But I see more heart in his game.

Yeah, and hey even that is a guy we have been wanting for years... right?

I hope Seider exceeds our expectations and becomes a Pieterangelo type of guy. But he also could become a Hampus Lindholm type of guy. I need to see him at the next level first to get a better feel for if he can run a PP unit and what kind of offense we can expect. I think it's a little early to have him #1 in this vote personally, behind two guys who have shown promise at the NHL level.

 

[14ari13]

And you should not ignore data just because it's uncomfortable for your opinion.

Sure. But his GA/60 is virtually the same as Bowey's - and Bowey is considered a disaster.
His GA/60 is 1/2 goal higher than Cholo - and we know what people think of his GA.

And yes, I know Hronek generally plays tougher minutes.

But his defensive play needs a ton of work.

Hronek's on ice save percentage is the 2nd lowest on the D. Only Bowey's is lower.

1. He is 2 years younger, which is huge at this point in their careers.
2. He players more min and tougher min
3. His stats is worsened by empty net goals

 

[Henkka]

1. He is 2 years younger, which is huge at this point in their careers.
2. He players more min and tougher min
3. His stats is worsened by empty net goals

Not much from empty-net situations.

Wings + Hronek with empty net
5 goals for, 12 against, so -7 from that.

Wings + Hronek against opposite team empty net
5 goals for, 1 against, so +4 from there.

-3 in Total.

 

[Shaman464]

Went with Zadina because the OP said potential. I think Hronek positionally is capped at where he's currently at: #2 PMD. I think is offense increases a bit, but I don't think his potential is elite. He's going to be in that good/great category. But, still by leaps and bounds the best defender Detroit has drafted in since Fischer. I see Zadina's POTENTIAL as an elite winger. A guy good for 40 goals if he reaches it. Whether he reaches it is a question mark, but by potential I put him at the top.

 

[14ari13]

Not much from empty-net situations.

Wings + Hronek with empty net
5 goals for, 12 against, so -7 from that.

Wings + Hronek against opposite team empty net
5 goals for, 1 against, so +4 from there.

-3 in Total.

Regardless of if it is much or not, it adds to the 3 points I pointed out that drags his stats negative, which one has to consider when taking the whole picture.

 

[Lil Bert]

Not much from empty-net situations.

Wings + Hronek with empty net
5 goals for, 12 against, so -7 from that.

Wings + Hronek against opposite team empty net
5 goals for, 1 against, so +4 from there.

-3 in Total.

GA/60 doesn't account for goals scored and +/- If he's been out there for 12 empty net goals that drags him down to the same "range" as Bowey and Cholo. Is anyone actually arguing that Hroneks defensive game is as bad as theirs?? If so, how many games have you watched