Red Wings at the deadline

[Hammettf2b]

The problem with that argument is that Mantha is 20, near the beginning of his development cycle. Myers is 25 and near the end. The only point in his career where I'd concede that he had Chara potential was his rookie season. Since then he's regressed, he's learned nothing but bad habits playing on a god-awful team that has next to no system (which would be difficult to adjust to). Chances are, he's as good as he gets right now. And right now he doesn't hold a candle to even a declining Chara. He's not Norris caliber. He's not even a #1 defenseman on a good team.

Compare that to a 6'5" goalscorer who has plus skating and hands, whose biggest problem is in his head and can be fixed with good leadership. A player like that is exceptionally rare. Now add to that the fact that it's likely going to cost Mantha++ for Myers. At the end of the day it's 50/50 you're giving up the best player in the deal plus two additional assets. I do not make that trade. In fact I stay far away from that trade.

Just playing devils advocate here but, what makes you so sure that Meyers can't learn from the Wings players and coaching staff and learn the system. It's often said that defensemen develop later than forwards.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

Myers is not done developing and will very likely improve substantially at his next stop. He still has done very little to merit moving Mantha for him who has limitless potential. They shouldn't move Mantha for Myers in my opinion. There are suitable trades, maybe not to the Buffalo fan-base but there are options where we don't have to send Mantha or Larkin and if they don't win that fine, but there is no reason to become fixated on him and pay too steep of a price.

However, he is by no means done developing. 25 year old D-man are absolutely still developing.

I didn't mean to imply he was done. I said near to the end, just like Mantha is near the beginning. And at the end of the day it's anyone's guess as to what Mantha will become, but I'd be willing to bet he'll one day be a great top six winger. Myers on the other hand, is nowhere near Chara level. To suggest that he will become that good with a couple more years of development is unrealistic imo. You throw in the additional assets on top of Mantha that it'll cost us, and I think it'd be foolish to even consider the deal.

 

[detredWINgs]

Myers is not done developing and will very likely improve substantially at his next stop. He still has done very little to merit moving Mantha for him who has limitless potential. They shouldn't move Mantha for Myers in my opinion. There are suitable trades, maybe not to the Buffalo fan-base but there are options where we don't have to send Mantha or Larkin and if they don't win that fine, but there is no reason to become fixated on him and pay too steep of a price.

However, he is by no means done developing. 25 year old D-man are absolutely still developing.

Substantially? That's highly debatable.

Goligoski, Edler, Kindl, Enstrom, Jackman, Hammer, Liles, Gleason, Leopold, Hainsey, Meszaros, Coburn...I mean, the list is practically endless of guys who either improved marginally, made no progress, or even regressed around the age of 25 or 26 and still haven't gotten that back.

There is this amazing phenomenon where people forget that many guys who are now considered "meh" players at the age of 29 or 30 were once "the next big thing" or "untradeable" or "the only way to go from here is up" kind of players. I mean, the fact that we're even talking about trading for Myers when many Sabres fans were probably ordaining him as a franchise player 5 years ago speaks volumes.

As a Wings fan, I'd be extremely hesitant to say a defenseman is "absolutely still developing at 25." We, better than anyone, know that not all players have the same development trajectory, given how many people like to detract from our youngsters who weren't NHL regulars at 21.

With that said, I do think Myers will look better on a winning team. I think we as fans often underestimate the toll it takes on players who have to carry the lunch pail to the junkyard every day. I think players who can keep the hardhat on while playing for a tanking team are few and far between and I don't fault them for that. There's little fun in giving 100% for a lost cause. But development wise, I wouldn't bank on Myers developing "substantially" just because he's 25. Most NHL defenseman don't have 130 games under their belt before they could legally crack open a cold one stateside either.

 

[Yemack]

btw I didnt mean to come of as saying Myers is a trash. I never said that.

He can definitely brings a package that Wings can use. He's RH also he's not afraid to use his body. Having him on the team would definitely lessen the load on Kronwall who needs any relief he can get which, I think, is alot more crucial than some of you may think. (for both short+long term)

but get him for a kings ransom? sorry i'll pass. I'm not the one who use stats to evaluate players but 2 goals? for mantha + roster player + pick? something just doesnt sit right with me.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

Just playing devils advocate here but, what makes you so sure that Meyers can't learn from the Wings players and coaching staff and learn the system. It's often said that defensemen develop later than forwards.

On the contrary, I think a new system is what will make him look better. He'll look better because of who he's paired with and playing on a team whose primarily defensive minded. That takes time to adjust though and probably doesn't happen by the end of the year (food for thought for anyone who thinks he'll make an immediate impact). You combine that with the fact that he needs to improve his own shortcomings and he has his work cut out for him.

It's possible to see drastic improvements in a defenseman between ages 20 and 25. It's rare to see drastic changes in a player's game between 25 and 30. And he has a lot to do to be in the same realm as Chara (my biggest problem with that initial argument). Long story short, I can see Mantha one day being as good as Vanek. I cannot see Myers ever being as good as Chara. Which means you likely give up the best player in the trade, plus you add additional assets on top. Seems like a bad idea to me.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Now that's just silly. You have "no choice" but to believe both? People can be of the opinion that Myers will not become anything more than he is and that Mantha will become an elite player. Its not like there is zero precedent for players flying out of the gate early in their careers and then falling off and zero precedent for goal scorers not being NHL shoe-ins at 20.

woah, sure but something actually happening isnt the same as arguing/hoping one unproven guy becomes a superstar while another does not inorder to increase/decrease value

while i am hopeful for mantha or larkin i am not about to ordain them nhl superstars who if traded to a division rival surely will team up to make one of the most feared twosomes in the league

 

[SirloinUB]

I didn't mean to imply he was done. I said near to the end, just like Mantha is near the beginning. And at the end of the day it's anyone's guess as to what Mantha will become, but I'd be willing to bet he'll one day be a great top six winger. Myers on the other hand, is nowhere near Chara level. To suggest that he will become that good with a couple more years of development is unrealistic imo. You throw in the additional assets on top of Mantha that it'll cost us, and I think it'd be foolish to even consider the deal.

Prior to turning 25, Chara had never scored 23 points in a season. He spent time in the Czech national
Tier 2 league, Czech junior league, the whl and NHL. He was a consistent minus player, and had both skating and discipline issues. Chara was drafted in the third round while Myers was a top 12 pick who lit up the WHL and went on to win the calder. Simply put, thus far Tyler Myers has accomplished a hell of a lot more than chara had by the same age.

The point in all of this?

Chara was even further from the player that he became than myers currently is.

Players don't develop in consistent Linear programming. Myers certainly has the tools. What he will do with them is anyone's guess

 

[Claypool]

Prior to turning 25, Chara had never scored 23 points in a season. He spent time in the Czech national
Tier 2 league, Czech junior league, the whl and NHL. He was a consistent minus player, and had both skating and discipline issues. Chara was drafted in the third round while Myers was a top 12 pick who lit up the WHL and went on to win the calder. Simply put, thus far Tyler Myers has accomplished a hell of a lot more than chara had by the same age.

The point in all of this?

Chara was even further from the player that he became than myers currently is.

Players don't develop in consistent Linear programming. Myers certainly has the tools. What he will do with them is anyone's guess

I love how people continue to use the Chara comparisons. Myers has progressively gotten worse and worse throughout his career, so when he goes to a contender he's going to magically turn his career around? For every Chara example you use I can name 100s of players that peaked in their first couple years then never reached their potential. The fact is Myers will likely never be a top pairing defenseman again in this league, especially on a good team.

The point in all this? Stop using the Chara example. It's wishful thinking.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I love how people continue to use the Chara comparisons. Myers has progressively gotten worse and worse throughout his career, so when he goes to a contender he's going to magically turn his career around? For every Chara example you use I can name 100s of players that peaked in their first couple years then never reached their potential. The fact is Myers will likely never be a top pairing defenseman again in this league, especially on a good team.

The point in all this? Stop using the Chara example. It's wishful thinking.

the chara example is about as bad as those who use myers stats from the buffalo sabres as some how indicitive of his play on any other cub

 

[Yemack]

Prior to turning 25, Chara had never scored 23 points in a season. He spent time in the Czech national
Tier 2 league, Czech junior league, the whl and NHL. He was a consistent minus player, and had both skating and discipline issues. Chara was drafted in the third round while Myers was a top 12 pick who lit up the WHL and went on to win the calder. Simply put, thus far Tyler Myers has accomplished a hell of a lot more than chara had by the same age.

The point in all of this?

Chara was even further from the player that he became than myers currently is.

Players don't develop in consistent Linear programming. Myers certainly has the tools. What he will do with them is anyone's guess

Chara's case is different from some of other elite D man but then you can use Chara's case to any of under 25 D man in NHL. I think it's more of rarity than the norm.

Still, the Chara's case makes me pause and think about Myers one more time. I really need to catch one of Buffalo's game to see if he actually has it.

 

[Yemack]

the chara example is about as bad as those who use myers stats from the buffalo sabres as some how indicitive of his play on any other cub

that's right his stat says nothing about his play

 

[Claypool]

the chara example is about as bad as those who use myers stats from the buffalo sabres as some how indicitive of his play on any other cub

How many perceived "good players on a bad team" saw significant increases in production and play when moving to a contending team? I'd argue one of the reasons Buffalo is doing poorly this season is because Myers isn't playing well. If Myers can't play defense in Buffalo what makes you think he can play defense in Detroit? And it's not this is his first bad season, he's gotten worse, in terms of production, for the past five seasons. It's not going to magically change overnight. He is what he is right now.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

that's right his stat says nothing about his play

i guess i feel that looking at the offensive output of one young dman on a terrible hockey team isnt overly telling

i dont think that if kronwall were on the sabres this year he would have significantly more points than myers currently does

i take his stats on the sabres with a grain of salt

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

It seems to me this wouldn't even be a debate if Mantha had come in and lit up the AHL like people thought he would. Regardless, this is all moot anyways, Holland says Mantha is untouchable (as he should be). Let Anaheim pay the sun, stars and moon to get Myers, there are better options out there.

 

[Yemack]

i guess i feel that looking at the offensive output of one young dman on a terrible hockey team isnt overly telling

i dont think that if kronwall were on the sabres this year he would have significantly more points than myers currently does

i take his stats on the sabres with a grain of salt

I sure do as well. But contrary to your belief, I think Kronwall would have scored more than 2 goals. Also if Kronwall was on that team, I think he would have more impact. I think you are underestimating Kronwall. He's a huge part of our team and has alot of influence in how this team executes the system. (maybe I'm bit biased because I like Kronner)

Also I dont care if Myers is playing on the worstest team in history of NHL. If he's getting all the opportunities to produce, (5-5 and PP opportunities) he should damn be scoring more than 2 goals if Sabres wants that kind of package.

That's my preliminary evaluation. I would prolly add more after I watch bit of his next game.

 

[SirloinUB]

I love how people continue to use the Chara comparisons. Myers has progressively gotten worse and worse throughout his career, so when he goes to a contender he's going to magically turn his career around? For every Chara example you use I can name 100s of players that peaked in their first couple years then never reached their potential. The fact is Myers will likely never be a top pairing defenseman again in this league, especially on a good team.

The point in all this? Stop using the Chara example. It's wishful thinking.

I am not wishing for anything. I am not even suggesting Myers will be the next Chara. I am simply sharing the fact that players develop at different ages and paces. People weren't projecting Chara to become the best NHL dman when he was 23.


I would agree with those that suggest Chara is not the Norm, but there are plenty of other late bloomers including some Superstars on this very team we all support.

I will also add that I support those who say we shouldn't pay a kings Ransom for Myers. Myers has the tools to be a top pairing player but I am not ready to bet on it via a trade.

 

[SoupNazi]

Continue in Part II.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=96812607#post96812607