RED FISCHER CONFERENCE FINALS: Pittsburgh AC (1) v. Orillia Terriers (2)

[ResilientBeast]

Pittsburgh AC:

Original Red and White colours of the AC

"Speed is the essence of war"
Sun Tzu​

Coach: Pete Green

Captain: Scott Stevens
Alternate: Bobby Orr
Alternate: Yvan Cournoyer
Alternate: Joe Malone


ROSTER:

FORWARDS:

Johnny Bucyk - Joe Malone (A) - Vladimir Martinec
(21 minutes)

Bun Cook - Jacques Lemaire - Yvan Cournoyer (A)
(15 minutes)

Rusty Crawford - Dale Hawerchuk - Glenn Anderson
(14 minutes)

Nick Metz - Dave Poulin - Bill Guerin
(This line will play a touch more due to Gretzky, 10/11 minute range)


Spares:

Phil Goyette
Alex Tanguay

DEFENSEMEN:

Scott Stevens (C) - Bobby Orr (A)
Orr - 30 minutes
Stevens - 26 minutes

Jacques Laperriere - Earl Seibert
Seibert - 26 minutes
Laperriere - 24 minutes

Flash Hollett - Ken Morrow
Hollett - 10 minutes
Morrow - 4 minutes

Spares:

Gennady Tsygankov



GOALIES:​

Johnny Bower
Hap Holmes

SPECIAL TEAMS:

PP1

Malone

Seibert - Cournoyer - Bucyk

Orr​

PP2

Martinec - Lemaire - Anderson/Hawerchuk
Hawerchuk/Orr - Hollett

*Orr will rotate with Hawerchuk on the 2nd unit to keep him as fresh as possible for ES. If Orr comes on Hawerchuk will move up to replace Anderson. Either way, Hawerchuk will play the most among 2nd unit F's.

PK1

Cook - Metz
Stevens - Orr*

*When leading by 1 or more, Laperriere will move up to 1st unit and Orr down to 2nd. Another way to manufacture Orr an extra shift at ES

PK2

Poulin - Crawford/Martinec*
Laperriere - Morrow/Seibert*

*When leading in the 3rd period, Seibert will replace Morrow on the 2nd unit.

*Martinec will play on this unit if trailing

vs

Lester Patrick

Tommy Phillips - Wayne Gretzky "C" - Charlie Conacher "A"
Brad Marchand - Marty Barry - Bobby Bauer
Artemi Panarin - Cooney Weiland - Claude Provost
Brian Sutter - Camille Henry - Floyd Curry

Scott Niedermayer "A" - Drew Doughty
Pat Stapleton - Bill White
Ryan McDonagh - P.K. Subban

Jacques Plante
Henrik Lundqvist

Spares: Lynn Patrick, Jack Marshall, Carol Vadnais

PP1: Conacher-Gretzky-Henry-Subban-Stapleton
PP2: Marchand-Barry-Bauer-Doughty-Niedermayer

PK1: Weiland-Provost-McDonagh-White
PK2: Phillips-Curry-Niedermayer-Doughty
PK3: Marchand-Gretzky

​

Forwards	ES	PP	PK	Total
Wayne Gretzky	16	5	1	22
Tommy Phillips	14		3	17
Charlie Conacher	15	5		20
Marty Barry	14	2		16
Brad Marchand	13	2	1	16
Bobby Bauer	13	2		15
Cooney Weiland	12		3	15
Artemi Panarin	11			11
Claude Provost	12		3	15
Camille Henry	4	5		9
Brian Sutter	8			8
Floyd Curry	6		3	9
Totals	138	21	14	173

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Defensemen	ES	PP	PK	Total
Scott Niedermayer	19	2	3	24
Drew Doughty	19	2	3	24
Pat Stapleton	17	5		22
Bill White	17		4	21
Ryan McDonagh	10		4	14
P.K. Subban	10	5		15
Totals	92	14	14	120

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

​

Click to read more...

 

[Dreakmur]

Good luck IE. I'm glad your very unique team build worked out. I think we both took risks in our team construction.

Looking forward to a good debate here.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Good luck RB. I'm glad your very unique team build worked out. I think we both took risks in our team construction.

Looking forward to a good debate here.

Thanks sir.

Just an FYI. I'm not feeling well at all. Fever, chills, and lightheaded. Going for a covid test first thing tomorrow. Apologies if I don't participate much tomorrow.

I'll at least get an overview by Friday/Saturday.

 

[Dreakmur]

Thanks sir.

Just an FYI. I'm not feeling well at all. Fever, chills, and lightheaded. Going for a covid test first thing tomorrow. Apologies if I don't participate much tomorrow.

I'll at least get an overview by Friday/Saturday.

No worries. I’m sure my analysis will be 100% fair and you will have no disagreement.

Hope you’re well soon!

 

[ImporterExporter]

No worries. I’m sure my analysis will be 100% fair and you will have no disagreement.

Hope you’re well soon!

Thanks sir. I think a bunch of rest and water/OJ is in store!

 

[Dreakmur]

I suppose I'll start with something unconventional... defending one of my opponent's players - Johnny Bucyk.

Last series, it appeared that he was portrayed as a product of the Bruins PP, which bugged me, since it is not accurate. While it is true that he was a big part of those Bruin PPs, he was an elite ES scorer before Orr and Esposito even arrived.

Lets use 1969 as the cut-off, since that is when the team's offensive game really took off. What did Bucyk do before the 1968-69 season? Before that point, he didn't score much on the PP, so his overall point totals weren't as impressive, but his ES scoring was extremely impressive. Between 1958 and 1968, Bucyk piled up a 7 season ES vs.X score of 87.3. Only one season after that would even count in the math to calculate the 7 season score - which is 88.6 for his entire career.

Bucyk is a legit offensive threat.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Thanks sir.

Just an FYI. I'm not feeling well at all. Fever, chills, and lightheaded. Going for a covid test first thing tomorrow. Apologies if I don't participate much tomorrow.

I'll at least get an overview by Friday/Saturday.

Damn, good luck man.

 

[Dreakmur]

With Bobby Orr in a line-up, it's impossible to remove him from the offense, so I'll try to put together an offensive comparison that takes him into account.

I have calculated the ES vs. X scores for the following defensemen:
Bobby Orr - 88.1 (that’s an incredible score for a defenseman, since they tend to skew heavily towards Pp scoring)
Pat Stapleton - 49.1
Scott Niedermayer - 48.4
PK Subban - 44.1
Earl Seibert - 41.6



Since Orillia's defensemen are all so close together, I think I'll just use a 48 across the board. For Pittsburgh, I'll do an Orr and Seibert comparison.

First Lines: Phillips-Gretzky-Conacher vs. Bucyk-Malone-Martinec
-Orillia has an ES score of 385 (337+48)
-Pittsburg has a score of 350.4 (262.3 +88.1) with Bobby Orr and 303.9 with Earl Seibert.
-Even with Orr out there, Orillia has an edge of 385 to 350.4, which is a pretty substantial margin. Without him, it's dominating.

Second Lines: Marchand-Barry-Bauer vs. Cook-Lemaire-Cournoyer
-Orillia has an ES score of 302.7 (254.7+48)
-Pittsburgh has a score of 312.7 (224.6+88.1) with Orr and 266.2 (224.6+41.6) with Seibert.
-With Orr, Pittsburgh has an edge. Without Orr, Orillia has a significant edge.

Third Lines: Panarin-Weiland-Provost vs. Crawford-Hawerchuk-Anderson
-Orillia has an ES score of 292.6 (244.6+48)
-Pittsburgh has a score of 299.7 (211.6+88.1) with Orr and 253.2 (211.6+41.6) with Seibert.
-Again, with Orr Pittsburgh has an edge and without they are a large disadvantage.

Obviously, that's looking at nothing but the offensive numbers, but I think that's a fair representation of what Bobby Orr does to a team's offense when he's on and off the ice. In this series, I would assume that's about a 50/50 split.

Busy day, so I'll leave it at this for now. I'm really looking forward to breaking this series down further... but I figured I would get the hated vs.X out of the way!

Hopefully, IE is feeling well enough to respond later tonight.

 

[Dreakmur]

More Analysis - First Lines

The Bucyk-Malone-Martinec is a reasonably solid first line. That's actually quite impressive considering how long you waited to draft these guys. Joe Malone is certainly on the low end, but he scores at a legit first line level. He's not inept defensively, though I wouldn't say he will contribute there - he just won't hurt you. Bucyk was a huge steal. As a scorer, he's a legit first liner, but he brings so much more. He's an excellent cornerman and puckwinner. He's better than average defensively. He proved that he can thrive as both a primary player and a complimentary one. I think Martinec - as I expressed in the assassination thread - is a weak link here. His offensive game doesn't do it for me - I have him with an assigned vs. X score of 80.0 - and I'm not sure what else he brings. Was he good defensively compared to the other Czechs? Yeah, but what does that mean? How good was he compared to the best in the world? That's a really tough comparison. As a whole unit, I think they function well enough. None of the group relied on better linemates to carry the offensive load during their careers. I think they mesh pretty well and bring a balance of all elements, though mostly in the average range more than the good or elite.

I think Orillia's top line is the best in the draft (Lindsay/Richard and Moore/Richard were close). Obviously, Gretzky drives the offense, but Conacher is an elite scorer as well. The previous opinion that he had a short peak is somewhat dispelled by the fact that he played defense to finish his career. What we thought were poor offensive seasons were actually excellent considering his position - he was 2nd among defensemen both seasons he played full seasons there, and was almost an all-star in 1940. Phillips brings exactly what that duo need - an elite defensive safety valve who can contribute as a secondary offensive threat. I think Conacher probably needs a playmaker to be full effective, but Gretzky covers that.

In the play-offs, I think all three of the Pittsburgh skaters are perfectly fine. None are particularly good or bad. Orillia, on the other hand, has quite a bit of play-off pedigree. Gretzky 's play-off exploits are obviously ridiculous. Phillips was a multi-time Stanley Cup Challenge scoring leader. Conacher led the play-offs in scoring once, but he also scored well across his career. From 1932 to 1936, he led the league in play-off goals and was second in points. From 1931 to 1940, he led the lead in play-off goals and points. I think that gives Orillia an even large edge in the play-offs.

Pittsburgh did an excellent job getting good value selecting later first round players, but they're still just good value players, and that just doesn't match up against Orillia's elite guys. Even with the support of Bobby Orr, they can't compete with the offensive power Orillia's unit bring to the table.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Making some adjustments for this matchup:

*Poulin will remain in the lineup for the obvious matchup vs Gretzky. Certainly will never shut 99 down completely but I am glad to have at least 1 Selke level C to give him tougher shifts. Greztky will also see some of Lemaire on Pittsburgh ice as he's certainly a good defensive C and plays a physical brand of hockey that should lean well on 99.

*Metz will shift to LW on the 4th line to check Conacher.

*Crawford will shift up to 3LW, again as a great defensive check against Conacher. With Bun Cook and Bucyk also on the left side + Stevens/Laperriere I think Pittsburgh is in a fantastic situation to really limit Gretzky's only legitimate 1st line scorer, in a draft this size.

*Guerin is back in the lineup. He'll play on the 4th line RW spot. With Tommy Phillips on the top line at LW, he's certailny much more slanted to the defensive and with Gretzky/Conacher as the other player son the top line, he'll have to really focus on playing a conserative gam ein the offensive zone, so I'm not at all worried about Guerin being exposed, especially coming off a weeklong rest as he didn't play vs Arizona.

*Hollet is back in for Tsygankov, as a very sheltered #5, playing mainly on the PP and a handful of offensive zone draws for Pittsburgh. He's a nice boon as a depth scoring option/puck mover.


Coach: Pete Green

Captain: Scott Stevens
Alternate: Bobby Orr
Alternate: Yvan Cournoyer
Alternate: Joe Malone


ROSTER:



FORWARDS:

Johnny Bucyk - Joe Malone (A) - Vladimir Martinec
(21 minutes)

Bun Cook - Jacques Lemaire - Yvan Cournoyer (A)
(15 minutes)

Rusty Crawford - Dale Hawerchuk - Glenn Anderson
(14 minutes)

Nick Metz - Dave Poulin - Bill Guerin
(This line will play a touch more due to Gretzky, 10/11 minute range)


Spares:

Phil Goyette

Alex Tanguay



DEFENSEMEN:

Scott Stevens (C) - Bobby Orr (A)
Orr - 30 minutes
Stevens - 26 minutes

Jacques Laperriere - Earl Seibert
Seibert - 26 minutes
Laperriere - 24 minutes

Flash Hollett - Ken Morrow
Hollett - 10 minutes
Morrow - 4 minutes

Spares:

Gennady Tsygankov



GOALIES:​

Johnny Bower

Hap Holmes



SPECIAL TEAMS:

PP1

Malone

Seibert - Cournoyer - Bucyk

Orr​

PP2

Martinec - Lemaire - Anderson/Hawerchuk
Hawerchuk/Orr - Hollett

*Orr will rotate with Hawerchuk on the 2nd unit to keep him as fresh as possible for ES. If Orr comes on Hawerchuk will move up to replace Anderson. Either way, Hawerchuk will play the most among 2nd unit F's.


PK1

Cook - Metz
Stevens - Orr*

*When leading by 1 or more, Laperriere will move up to 1st unit and Orr down to 2nd. Another way to manufacture Orr an extra shift at ES


PK2

Poulin - Crawford/Martinec*
Laperriere - Morrow/Seibert*

*When leading in the 3rd period, Seibert will replace Morrow on the 2nd unit.

*Martinec will play on this unit if trailing​

 

[ImporterExporter]

@ResilientBeast

Hey sir, could you edit the first post with my updated roster I just posted. Just want to make sure people see that easily. Thanks!

Also @Dreakmur

Thanks for the defense of Bucyk. He's certainly not a sexy pick and in most years, he' someone you can needle a bit. But like you said, his ES scoring was fantastic and he produced even prior to Orr. Obviously without Orr, he's not an 88 VsX type, but given Orr is present, along with a very strong goal scorer at C, and Martinec at RW, should be looked at as at least close to that mark. And he also does bring a ton of intangibles to the table. One of the all time great cornermen, and also had a devastating hip check. Not a guy that pops, but absolutely is the type you want on a winning roster.

Also, I don't find anything you said so far to be out there in left field. Appreciate you getting things kicked off!

I'd only counter that while Gretzky/Conacher are certainly the best F's in the series, Pittsburgh is very much designed to take away/limit those types by having an insanely dominant top 4 on the back end and 3 competent scoring lines, especially the top unit.

Any great F (Gretzky included) is going to feast on liabilities, be it at F or D. With Pittsburgh having home ice and possessing the top 4 we do, Gretzky and company simply don't have any easy shifts. In fact they are brutal, certainly looking at the F to D comparison.

Tommy Phillips is not much of a threat offensively and will have to play a very conservative game in the offensive zone as neither Gretzky or Conacher are going to be difference makers defensively and in fact are probably at least slight liabilities.

This means that Conacher will have to face Metz, Crawford, Cook, and Bucyk which is the best collection of defensive LW's in the draft, none of them being black holes offensively by any means.

Couple those LW's with Stevens and Laperriere and I think Conacher will be hard pressed to generate high end output consistently.

Poulin/Lemaire will be tasked with getting in Gretzky's grill once he crossed into the neutral/offensive zones. And Stevens especially will have the green light to step up if the situation presents itself (when Orr is already behind him). Just his presence is enough to keep any player on their toes and any amount of focus that is shifted to him by a F is a win in Pittsburgh's book.

I'll touch on the D and G at some point.

 

[Dreakmur]

I'd only counter that while Gretzky/Conacher are certainly the best F's in the series, Pittsburgh is very much designed to take away/limit those types by having an insanely dominant top 4 on the back end and 3 competent scoring lines, especially the top unit.

Any great F (Gretzky included) is going to feast on liabilities, be it at F or D. With Pittsburgh having home ice and possessing the top 4 we do, Gretzky and company simply don't have any easy shifts. In fact they are brutal, certainly looking at the F to D comparison.

I think you do have excellent defensemen, certainly better than mine. The question is, 5 on 5, will my strong forwards being supported by average defenseman be better than your average forwards being supported by strong defenseman?

With Gretzky, though, the danger isn't just that he's easily the best playmaker of all time, but he's also an elite goalscorer (is he a top-5 scorer all time?). It's not like you cheat off him like Joe Thornton or Adam Oates, who aren't scoring threats. Gretzky is actually a better goalscorer than Conacher...

Tommy Phillips is not much of a threat offensively and will have to play a very conservative game in the offensive zone as neither Gretzky or Conacher are going to be difference makers defensively and in fact are probably at least slight liabilities.

Gretzky and Conacher are not good defensively, but that doesn't mean Phillips has to play defensively all the time. Phillips gets to play 3rd wheel, and he's totally capable of that.

Much like Orr helps out your team's whole offense, Tommy Phillips helps out my whole team's defence.

This means that Conacher will have to face Metz, Crawford, Cook, and Bucyk which is the best collection of defensive LW's in the draft, none of them being black holes offensively by any means.

It is a really deep defensive LW position you managed to put together. Metz and Crawford are borderline black holes though.

Couple those LW's with Stevens and Laperriere and I think Conacher will be hard pressed to generate high end output consistently.

Conacher vs Stevens is going to be a damn car crash all series long. That's a bloodbath in the making....

Poulin/Lemaire will be tasked with getting in Gretzky's grill

I don't think either of them are truly equipped to handle the high end matchups, let alone Gretzky.

once he crossed into the neutral/offensive zones. And Stevens especially will have the green light to step up if the situation presents itself (when Orr is already behind him). Just his presence is enough to keep any player on their toes and any amount of focus that is shifted to him by a F is a win in Pittsburgh's book.

The biggest issue with Orr here is that, while he is a very good defender, you appear to be relying on him for so much offense that he's going to be caught up ice a lot. He can't be consistently being up ice without making sacrifices in his defensive game.

Stevens is an excellent defender, but how many 2-on-1s with Gretzky and Conacher coming at him is he going to be able to handle?

How often can he step up looking for a big hit when he's the last man back? That's pretty riksy!

Not trying to say Orr will always be out of position, but it will happen pretty regularly... assuming he's your primary offensive driver, which it appears he is.

 

[Dreakmur]

More Analysis - First Lines

Pittsburgh's second line looks to be reasonably well, with a good mix of all elements needed to work together. Bun Cook was a solid glue-guy for the Bread Line. He was good defensively, he was energetic, and he was good enough offensively to be an effective third wheel. Lemaire is a nicely well-rounded centre. Cournoyer is a decent opportunistic scorer, though his ES scoring isn't particularly good. The biggest weakness in this line is that all 3 of it's members are complimentary players rather than guys that drove their lines. Cook had his brother and Boucher. Lemaire had Lafleur. Cournoyer was probably the least reliant on linemates, but he also has the weakest ES score (70.3) by a wide margin. I don't think any of these guys is really capable to taking the offensive load on their shoulders. Who drives this line when all three guys are used to watching other guys do that for them?

Orillia's line is also reasonably well balanced. Marchand brings elite agitation, good puck pursuit, and is developing into a really good scorer and playmaker. Bobby Bauer brings little outside his offense, but he's a good score and playmaykr. Marty Barry is a bit harder to gauge. He's obviously a very good scorer and playmaker, but his overall game has mixed reviews. Depending on your view of Barry, this line could be considered a bit soft. The biggest difference between these lines is that all of the Orillia line members are capable of driving offense. Marty Barry was far-and-away the best offensive player on his championship teams. Brad Marchand leads the Perfection Line in scoring most years. Bobby Bauer wasn't the complete player Milt Schmidt was, but they were just about co-leaders of the offense.

In the play-offs, both of these lines have some good performers. I think both Cook and Bauer have mixed results, and should probably be considered average. Marchand's scoring rate goes up pretty substantially - 0.88 ppg to 0.98 ppg. Adding his addition rat factor in a long series, I think he might be the best play-off performer on either line. Marty Barry is a multi-time play-off scoring leader, and his scoring rate goes up slightly. Jacques Lemaire has some really good scoring finishes, but is that a result of playing for a dynasty? His scoring rate goes very slightly down in the play-offs. He was definitely a good play-off scorer, but I don't think it's elite. Cournoyer is the same - his scoring rate goes slightly down in the play-offs.

Even with Orr on the ice, I'm not sure the Pittsburgh line will be able to produce like the Orillia line. Yeah, adding Orr gives Pittsburgh a slightly higher vs.X score, but with added context, I don't think they actually match that number. Without Orr, Orillia's line has a significant advantage, especially considering how much the Pittsburgh forwards will tend to rely on somebody else to create the offense.

 

[Dreakmur]

Coaching:
I'm probably as high on Pete Green as anyone else. I have him in the second tier, with Al Arbour and Barry Trotz.

I have Lester Patrick in the top tier.

To be honest, I'm not sure exactly how big or small the gap is. The reason I have Patrick in the top tier is because he has the flexibility to be full effective with any type of team. Green doesn't have the same flexibility, but with the right team construction, he might be just as good as Patrick. The question is, does he have that team make-up? Based only on the fact that both of his real life dynasty teams were built around an elite centre (Nighbor and McGee), which Pittsburgh doesn't have.

Based on the slight coach/roster mismatch, I think Orillia has a coaching advantage.


Goaltending:
While Jacques Plante's puck-handling expertise will likely come up at times during this match-up, I'm not sure it will be a deciding factor. Neither the Pittsburgh roster nor coach appear likely want to play a dump and chase game. It still happens a little bit, and Plante can help there, but it's not a team strategy that Plante can almost eliminate entirely.

I like Bower more than most I think. I have him somewhere in the 12-15 range of goalies, and ahead of Turk Broda. He has his most successful years playing for a super hard-working group of low-skill players. Based on my research on Punch Imlach, those Leaf teams weren't built around structure, but instead on hard work and sacrifice.

Jacques Plante is quite securely in the #3 slot in goalie rankings. He's also an all-time elite play-off performer. He has his best years playing behind the team that popularized the term "firewagon hockey" with their high-flying offensive game.

I think Orillia has a strong goaltending advantage.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

This match-up features two of my favorite "historical-case-study" players: one on each team... Charlie Conacher (who gets too much flack for insufficient defense) and Earl Seibert (who gets too little credit for his offense). About the mid-30s Hawks teams where Seibert was toiling...

I'd like to see Pierre Pilote try to lead Defensemen in scoring passing to that collection of s. I don't think anybody this side of Orr would've had a chance of making scorers out of those dudes. What a stench.

For a non-expansion, non-tank-command team, their collective forward scoring offense emanated putrescence on an historically-significant level.

Seibert's counting stats are suppressed because he had a significant portion of his career making passes to people who were either in the throes of hangfire, scuffing their shots, squarely hitting central mass, or missing the target entirely.

 

[Dreakmur]

This match-up features two of my favorite "historical-case-study" players: one on each team... Charlie Conacher (who gets too much flack for insufficient defense) and Earl Seibert (who gets too little credit for his offense). About the mid-30s Hawks teams where Seibert was toiling...Seibert's counting stats are suppressed because he had a significant portion of his career making passes to people who were either in the throes of hangfire, scuffing their shots, squarely hitting central mass, or missing the target entirely.

While I do agree that playing with poor forwards would hurt his assist totals, there are some other potential factors that would reverse that impact.

Playing on a poor team would likely mean he got more ice time, especially on the PP.

Playing on a poor team would likely mean he plays a much larger role in the offense, which would put the puck on his stick more often, which would lead to him picking up more points.

If I remember right, he was known well for his rushing. That could be because he was the key piece to the offense, which, as indicated above, likely boosted his scoring. Also, he might have just been a poor passer, or a poor play-reader, or just selfish.... which would hurt his forward’s scoring totals rather than the other way around. Do we actually know which one is the case?

Put him on another team, and he may not even get offensive opportunities, which would reduce his offense.

Or maybe you’re right, and he was totally dragged down by poor forwards.

 

[Dreakmur]

More Analysis: Third Lines
Neither of these lines is built like a traditional checking lines. Both has an offensive ringer, a two-way guy, and a defensive specialist.
Dale Hawerchuk is a good offensive player, but a high percentage of that scoring came on the PP. He doesn't bring anything outside scoring either. Panarin is also a good offensive player, but he does a huge percentage of his scoring at ES (84.7 vs. 81.9). Panarin is also a bit better defensively. Both of these guys have put up decent numbers in the play-offs, but neither has been part of a good enough team to truly rack up points.

Glenn Anderson is a strong ES scorer, brings a reckless physical style, and he plays a responsible defensive. Weiland brings similar scoring, a chippy style of play, and good defensive ability. Anderson was a good play-off scorer. Weiland has some elite years, and some off years. They're probably equal in the playoffs.

The big difference in these lines is Claude Provost vs. Rusty Crawford. Crawford is a good defensive forward, but brings very little offense. Provost is an elite defensive forward, and he also brings really good scoring at ES.

Offense: Panarin > Hawerchuk > Provost > Weiland > Anderson >>> Crawford
Defense: Provost >> Crawford > Weiland >> Anderson >> Panarin > Hawerchuk

With Bobby Orr on the ice, these lines are about even. Without him, it's a clear edge for Orillia.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

I like your team, Dream. Stapleton is 3rd all-time in Hawks only +/- behind only Mikita and Hull.

 

[Dreakmur]

Dealing With Bobby Orr

#1: Play-off Inconsistencies:
While Orr dominated the regular season like no other, he didn't do nearly as well in the play-offs. Even at his absolute peak, his teams lost in the 1st round of the play-offs half the time. For whatever reason, it seems that those Orr-led Boston teams couldn't consistently perform in the play-offs. It wasn't just Montreal either - they lost to New York and Chicago.

It was clearly possible to beat his teams - given the right personnel, coaching, and tactics.

#2: Coaching:
With an elite coach in Lester Patrick, Orillia should be able to effectively game-plan to slow Orr down.

#3: Game Tactics
Obviously, the best way to limit Orr's impact on the game is make him play defense instead of offense. While he is good defensively, that's not where he truly contributes. Any amount of time Orillia can control the puck is time where Bobby Orr doesn't. With a team built with skill throughout the lineup, I think Orillia has the ability to control the puck well. Combining Orillia's skilled forwards with Lester Patrick's strategic game plan, I think we'll be able to control the puck more than Pittsburgh.

As an added bonus, defensive minutes are a lot harder. Hopefully, playing in the defensive zone will drive his minutes down a tad.

Orillia is not a team that is built for the dump and chase game - but rather carrying the puck into the offensive zone. That should further limit Orr's ability to grab a puck behind his net and wind up down the ice. That's really when he's most dangerous - when he has wheels back, goes behind his net, and comes out full blast up ice. That doesn't happen very often - if ever - when the opposing team doesn't dump the puck in for him to retrieve.

Finally, early puck pressure is the best way to get the puck off his stick. He's clearly able to beat forecheckers, but hard pressure can often force a defenseman to make a pass. As soon as the puck is off his stick, there's no guarantee it ever goes back. On each line, Orillia has forecheckers to accomplish this: Phillips and Conacher on the 1st, Marchand on the 2nd, Weiland and Provost on the 3rd, Sutter and Curry on the 4th. That's not going to get the puck off his stick every time, since he can beat most of those guys on a regular basis, but any time he dishes early is a win for Orillia. Lester Patrick should be able to design an effective forechecking pattern to maximize this plan.

Simply put - control the puck, don't dump it in, and pressure Orr early.

 

[Dreakmur]

Bobby Orr - Scott Stevens

Both elite defensemen in their positions. Orr is the elite defenseman, and Stevens is a legit - though low end - #1 defenseman, even in a draft this small. Two elite parts, but how well do the actually work together?

Orr is the rushing defenseman. He's not bad defensively, but despite his skating ability, he physically cannot be in two places at once. If he's up ice, that leaves Stevens all alone.
Stevens is an excellent defender - at first glance, that seems like a perfect match. While Stevens is capable of playing a steady defensive game, what is the first thing people think of when they look at Scott Stevens? That big, devastating open ice body check! The problem is that it is extremely dangerous for a defenseman who is the last man back to risk his positioning to aggressively step up and try to make a check. If Orr is up ice, which he often will be, that leaves Stevens in a position where he can't do what he does best.

Being paired with Orr nearly eliminates Stevens' signature contribution. He's still a quality top-pairing defenseman, but Scott Stevens minus his open ice body checks isn't quite the #1 defenseman he otherwise would be.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bobby Orr - Scott Stevens

Both elite defensemen in their positions. Orr is the elite defenseman, and Stevens is a legit - though low end - #1 defenseman, even in a draft this small. Two elite parts, but how well do the actually work together?

Orr is the rushing defenseman. He's not bad defensively, but despite his skating ability, he physically cannot be in two places at once. If he's up ice, that leaves Stevens all alone.
Stevens is an excellent defender - at first glance, that seems like a perfect match. While Stevens is capable of playing a steady defensive game, what is the first thing people think of when they look at Scott Stevens? That big, devastating open ice body check! The problem is that it is extremely dangerous for a defenseman who is the last man back to risk his positioning to aggressively step up and try to make a check. If Orr is up ice, which he often will be, that leaves Stevens in a position where he can't do what he does best.

Being paired with Orr nearly eliminates Stevens' signature contribution. He's still a quality top-pairing defenseman, but Scott Stevens minus his open ice body checks isn't quite the #1 defenseman he otherwise would be.

That's an interesting point. I do think that if Orr is trapped up ice, Stevens can't do his open ice hitting thing, yes. It depends on how much you think Orr is suited for "steering the opponent into Stevens' lane," which is what his real life partners tended to do on his notable big hits.

Of course, it wasn't just Stevens' open ice hits that made him so feared - opponents didn't exactly enjoy taking it into the corners with him, either!

 

[Dreakmur]

That's an interesting point. I do think that if Orr is trapped up ice, Stevens can't do his open ice hitting thing, yes. It depends on how much you think Orr is suited for "steering the opponent into Stevens' lane," which is what his real life partners tended to do on his notable big hits.

Based on Pittsburgh's team make-up, Orr is going to be up ice a lot. They need him to drive the play.

I'd be happy if he decided to play more defensively, though!

Of course, it wasn't just Stevens' open ice hits that made him so feared - opponents didn't exactly enjoy taking it into the corners with him, either!

Oh definitely, Stevens did more than just throw open ice hits, but that was why he was feared most.