Red Bull Munich

[Salzig]

It seems like Red Bull has some serious plans regarding to their hockey team in Munich. They're building a new arena (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/olympiapark-red-bull-plant-neues-stadion-in-muenchen-1.1730060) with 4 rinks.

Additionally, they're upgrading their team. Guys like Haydar and DiSalvatore have good reputations. I think we can expect a lot from Munich in the next couple of years.

Your thoughts on this process?

Click to read more...

 

[Maverick41]

It seems like Red Bull has some serious plans regarding to their hockey team in Munich. They're building a new arena (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/olympiapark-red-bull-plant-neues-stadion-in-muenchen-1.1730060) with 4 rinks.

Additionally, they're upgrading their team. Guys like Haydar and DiSalvatore have good reputations. I think we can expect a lot from Munich in the next couple of years.

Your thoughts on this process?

I like it. There's always a lot of complaining from "traditionalists" whereever Red Bull gets involved with any of the "old school sports". Whether it's Formula 1, football or now hockey, there are always some people who feel they are ruining their game.

But I actually like the way Mateschitz does these things. As much as I hate that horrible drink, the way he and his people market their product and the way they go about their sports sponsoring is impressive. Red Bull never seems to be doing anything half-hearted. They go all-in and they're usually successful. I fully expect this to turn out to be a great thing for German hockey in the long term.

Mateschitz is not some bored billionaire who is looking at a sports team as toy to play with until he gets fed up with it. He has a plan going in and he will execute it, if people let him.

 

[vorky]

KHL route.

 

[Joey Banana]

It's Munich. Let's just wait a few years and see what happens.

I won't deny it's good for german hockey in general but it still makes me wonder how Munich will screw it up this time. They always had a tendency to dream big and it usually ended horribly. Even mentioning the word "KHL" in the same sentence as Munich should scare any fan of that team.

But hey, most thought they had learned from the Barons fiasco and look what happened.

 

[Vicente]

One thing is clear. The DEL team in Munich needs urgently a new arena. Not sure though about the basketball team of FC Bayern.

If Munich should end up in KHL one day there are enough teams only waiting to replace them - Frankfurt, Kassel, Dresden etc. And hockey market in Bayern wouldn't be lost either with Nürnberg, Augsburg, Ingolstadt and Straubing.

 

[daforse]

A new, luxurious rink is coming in the next couple of years as media reports.

In my opinion the (expensive) signings of Haydar, DiSalvatore and goaltender-coach Groulx created some buzz, even overseas.

Yesterday, Munich won their first friendly this summer against KHL-club Magnitogorsk (4:3 after penalties).

 

[Maverick41]

A new, luxurious rink is coming in the next couple of years as media reports.

In my opinion the (expensive) signings of Haydar, DiSalvatore and goaltender-coach Groulx created some buzz, even overseas.

Yesterday, Munich won their first friendly this summer against KHL-club Magnitogorsk (4:3 after penalties).

If they stay in the DEL and don't join the KHL, it won't be long before they join Berlin, Mannheim and Cologne at the top of the league, they may even end up dominating in a few years.
The good thing is that Red Bull usually builds their sports endeavours around a solid youth program. In motor racing they have their junior teams, in soccer they built and are still building great facilities for their youth teams and hired good coaches for them. And now they appear to do the same.
They are not taking the long road, they take a few "short cuts" by hiring very good players for their level of competition, but they plan long term and that is why I think this will work, regardless if they stay in the DEL or make the move to the KHL some time down the road.

 

[vorky]

when speaking about youth program. Are there any Munchen players in MHL Red Bulls? It is project of both clubs if I know.

 

[Maverick41]

when speaking about youth program. Are there any Munchen players in MHL Red Bulls? It is project of both clubs if I know.

As far as I know only a few at this point: Kai Herpich, Artem Klein, and maybe Tim Bender and Kevin Reich. I guess other players may head from Munich to the MHL team, once Munich's DEL roster is finalized.

 

[vorky]

Thx, so this project can help Munchen as well, MHL is better junior league than german jr. Btw, maybe more MHL clubs from Germany would help german hockey? Dont want to be off topic here.

 

[Burgs]

Actually I'm not sure what Munich wants to achieve by sending 18 or 20 year olds halfway across Europe to play junior hockey. Most of these kids will never be real pro players, and they know it, so they study or learn a trade at this age. The sensible thing to do would've been starting a junior team in the DNL where all the other kids are. That league needs better competition.

 

[vorky]

MHL is better than DNL, Red Bull had chance to play MHL, so why not? Travelling is not so complicated, they will play 4 times with division teams and 2 times with other division.

Centrálna Divízia
Mytiščinskí Atlanti (Rusko)
MHK Spartak Moskva (Rusko)
HK MVD Balašicha (Rusko)
Červená Armáda Moskva (Rusko)
MHK Chimik Voskresensk (Rusko)
Amurskí Tigri Chabarovsk (Rusko)
Energie Karlovy Vary (CR)
Patriot Budapešť (Maďarsko)
Mladá Garda Doneck (Ukrajina)
Red Bull Salzburg (Rakúsko)

Severná Divízia
Dinamo-Šinnik Bobrujsk (Bielorusko)
Junosť Minsk (Bielorusko)
HK Riga (Lotyšsko)
Almaz Čerepovec (Rusko)
Loko Jaroslavl (Rusko)
Ruskí Víťazi Čechov (Rusko)
Kapitan Stupino (Rusko)
SKA 1946 Petrohrad (Rusko)
Strieborné Levy Petrohrad (Rusko)
Dinamo Petrohrad (Rusko)

 

[Maverick41]

MHL is better than DNL, Red Bull had chance to play MHL, so why not? Travelling is not so complicated, they will play 4 times with division teams and 2 times with other division.

Centrálna Divízia
MytiÅ¡činskí Atlanti (Rusko)
MHK Spartak Moskva (Rusko)
HK MVD Balašicha (Rusko)
Červená Armáda Moskva (Rusko)
MHK Chimik Voskresensk (Rusko)
Amurskí Tigri Chabarovsk (Rusko)
Energie Karlovy Vary (CR)
Patriot BudapeÅ¡ť (Maďarsko)
Mladá Garda Doneck (Ukrajina)
Red Bull Salzburg (Rakúsko)

Severná Divízia
Dinamo-Å innik Bobrujsk (Bielorusko)
Junosť Minsk (Bielorusko)
HK Riga (Lotyšsko)
Almaz Čerepovec (Rusko)
Loko Jaroslavl (Rusko)
Ruskí Víťazi Čechov (Rusko)
Kapitan Stupino (Rusko)
SKA 1946 Petrohrad (Rusko)
Strieborné Levy Petrohrad (Rusko)
Dinamo Petrohrad (Rusko)

Those are still long journeys compared to travel within Germany. And while it's no big deal for Red Bull, no, and I mean no other team could or, in case of Mannheim, would spend this kind of money for travelling for their youth team, when they are likely to get nothing out of it. If players do ok or worse, they won't help them in the long run, and if they do well, they likely end up in the NHL or KHL and their youth team gets pretty much nothing in return.
And even if a few players eventually make an impact on their own team, it won't be enough to justify the higher costs, because even if a team wins in the DEL it doesn't mean they make a lot of money. On the contrary, Berlin, because of all their success had to pay their player so much in bonusses that they were in the red pretty much every year.

I see 1 or maybe 2 German KHL teams in the future who will probably also have their youth teams play in the MHL, but Red Bull aside, I don't think we will see an existing DEL franchise make that move. The only way that could happen is if a team is bought by some billionaire who wants to go that way. And in that case it would be pretty much the same thing as building a team from scratch because the team will lose most of its fans.

 

[vorky]

I agree with MHL and higher costs. Sure, if there was "normal" transfer market, as is in football, clubs would want to develop as best players as possible (to sell them for more money). That is a problem.

If we had more clubs from Europe in MHL, lets say 10-12, they would create own division/conference and would not travel to Russia at all. Yes, travelling within Germany would stay cheaper.

According to Red Bulls roster from yesterday´s game, there are Slovaks, Czechs, Swedes, Germans, Austrians etc in RB´s camp. Not all will stay, especially 93ers will leave club (too many - only 3 can play).

I dont understand why should DEL clubs lose fans if join KHL. Slovan did not lose them, Jokerit as well it seems, are german/swedish clubs so special?? The thesis "our fans would not care about KHL" is a mystery for me. I dont believe that 100% current fans of DEL/SHL team would leave if clubs join KHL. Sure, some would leave but others would come.

 

[Maverick41]

I agree with MHL and higher costs. Sure, if there was "normal" transfer market, as is in football, clubs would want to develop as best players as possible (to sell them for more money). That is a problem.

If we had more clubs from Europe in MHL, lets say 10-12, they would create own division/conference and would not travel to Russia at all. Yes, travelling within Germany would stay cheaper.

According to Red Bulls roster from yesterday´s game, there are Slovaks, Czechs, Swedes, Germans, Austrians etc in RB´s camp. Not all will stay, especially 93ers will leave club (too many - only 3 can play).

I dont understand why should DEL clubs lose fans if join KHL. Slovan did not lose them, Jokerit as well it seems, are german/swedish clubs so special?? The thesis "our fans would not care about KHL" is a mystery for me. I dont believe that 100% current fans of DEL/SHL team would leave if clubs join KHL. Sure, some would leave but others would come.

Not 100%, but a siginificant number.
Even I would care less if my favourite team (Berlin) played in the KHL, and I am by no means a hardcore fans or even opposed to the idea of German teams in the KHL.
I mean I don't even attend games now, in part because because the closest DEL city for me is Mannheim which would be like an 1 hour drive per way. I try to watch many games on TV if they are on. If they joined the KHL I would still be interested in how they are doing and look up the results and the player statistics, but I wouldn't even bother trying to find a way to watch a game.

I'd say they would lose like 60-70% of their fans and probably gain a few new ones. So they would start with, at best, 50% of the attendance they have right now. Over time and with good marketing, they may be able to bring in more people, but early on they would either make heavy losses or be far from competitive and that would make it more difficult to build anything for the future.

This is such a complicated affair, and the views of many fans are so extreme, that it will be extremely difficult to transplant a DEL franchise to the KHL.

Should Red Bull join the KHL and be successful, then things could change. If they manage to build some interest for the KHL in Germany among regular hockey fans, have games shown on TV (preferbly Free-TV not Pay-TV), then couple years later it might be easier, but right now it would be too much of a gamble. At least that is the way I see it. I could be totally off base.

 

[vorky]

I heard the same reasons in cases of Lev Poprad, Slovan Bratislava Lev Prague, Jokerit Helsinki. We will see, what happens in Germany if DEL club joins KHL one day. I said it many times, Munchen and Berlin are my favorites in this KHL´s expansion game. Munchen because of Red Bull, Eisbaren Berlin because of Gazprom. I heard that Gazprom´s GER HQ is next to O2 Arena, where Gazprom has VIP seats? Look, IMO Red Bull and Eisbaren have ambitions, want to be strong euro clubs and it is not possible within DEL, it is possible only in euro competition. ET is a joke, CL wont be there, this new project is only a game of KHL. It is complicated affair, not so easy to move to KHL, but who knows? If I were Eisbaren, I would join KHL - look, why should Eisbaren be a farm of Slovan/Lev Praha/Jokerit/Medvescak!!!!!??? The hell, why? Eisbaren has backround to be part of the same entity as these clubs! The words I would say to Eisbaren´s ownership to persuade them to join KHL. Domestic leagues are history of euro hockey, pan-euro league/s are future.

 

[Burgs]

This is such a complicated affair, and the views of many fans are so extreme, that it will be extremely difficult to transplant a DEL franchise to the KHL.

Should Red Bull join the KHL and be successful, then things could change. If they manage to build some interest for the KHL in Germany among regular hockey fans, have games shown on TV (preferbly Free-TV not Pay-TV), then couple years later it might be easier, but right now it would be too much of a gamble. At least that is the way I see it. I could be totally off base.

No you're right. Most German hockey fans are very traditional and more fan of a single club than of the sport overall. They will follow the national team, too, but otherwise stick to their home team and its established rivalries etc. Fans will watch a Champions League style competition (without getting really passionate about it) as long as it's a bonus only.

I see it exactly the same way. KHL's best option is to find a multimillionaire who places a brand new club in a non-traditional market and then pumps millions into advertising and public relations to grow a new fanbase. That will take years, and will have no real payoff so why would anyone bother? Hockey is such a niche sport that they wouldn't even get credible TV coverage.

I heard the same reasons in cases of Lev Poprad, Slovan Bratislava Lev Prague, Jokerit Helsinki. We will see, what happens in Germany if DEL club joins KHL one day. I said it many times, Munchen and Berlin are my favorites in this KHL´s expansion game. Munchen because of Red Bull, Eisbaren Berlin because of Gazprom. I heard that Gazprom´s GER HQ is next to O2 Arena, where Gazprom has VIP seats? Look, IMO Red Bull and Eisbaren have ambitions, want to be strong euro clubs and it is not possible within DEL, it is possible only in euro competition. ET is a joke, CL wont be there, this new project is only a game of KHL. It is complicated affair, not so easy to move to KHL, but who knows? If I were Eisbaren, I would join KHL - look, why should Eisbaren be a farm of Slovan/Lev Praha/Jokerit/Medvescak!!!!!??? The hell, why? Eisbaren has backround to be part of the same entity as these clubs! The words I would say to Eisbaren´s ownership to persuade them to join KHL. Domestic leagues are history of euro hockey, pan-euro league/s are future.

I doubt it would ever be a truly European league. It will always be seen as a Russian league where Russians call the shots. And Eisbären fans would rather see their club compete for the German championship (which they've been very successful at recently) than play punching bag for some oligarch toy clubs in a foreign league. The Anschutz group uses the Eisbären as anchor tenant for the O2 World (they own both), they spend enough money on the club to make them favorites every year so the arena gets filled. But KHL would require a bigger budget, and if many fans refuse to follow the club to the KHL the Eisbären would take big losses. And for what, so Gazprom execs can watch more Russians at home games? Hell, a lot of Eisbären fans got mad when the team only moved to a new arena in the same city and same league...

Munich is a much better chance IMO. Red Bull only uses sports to market its energy drinks. If they think KHL means better exposure then they'll go. German hockey fans won't miss them anyway, and a new club will be formed in Munich that will work its way up through the minor leagues and draw in what few hardcore fans that city has.

 

[vorky]

Burgs
That is your opinion, we will see in future. As I can see, there is no space for discussion now. I will add just one fact - nobody asked fans in Poprad, Bratislava Prague, Helsinki if they would like KHL´s team in the city. Why should DEL club ask the fans? And finally, KHL will not create a brand new club in Europe anymore, IMO.

 

[Sanderson]

Who said anything about asking fans?
A team could move to another league, but that doesn't mean that the fans will like it. Düsseldorf lost half its attendance because the fans didn't like the new arena, that should be enough to tell you how fickle hockey fans are.

Maybe we will see a team move to the KHL sometime in the future, but I wouldn't bank on the attendance staying the same. There is virtually no team that could afford the KHL. The Eisbären make significant losses every year, and that is with excellent attendance. If teams can hardly break even in the DEL, how are they supposed to survive in the much more expensive KHL?

There would be no money from german tv, there isn't enough sponsorship, and if there is no success - which isn't that unlikely - attendance would get even worse. That leaves you with having an owner who loves to blow money. Mannhein, Berlin and Hamburg have extremely rich owners, but they fall more into the fiscally responsible type who want the combination of team+arena to do well. That leaves Red Bull, who might very well try it.

 

[vorky]

Fans - I just wanted to say that it is not so important that fans are against joining KHL now. Fans of Slovan were also against KHL, they wanted derby with Kosice, Trencin. As I know, one group of Jokerit fans is the same, other welcomes KHL. Of course, KHL would not work in every german/DEL city, but I believe that Berlin/Munchen would work. Do not russian descendants live in Berlin´s area?

No team that could afford the KHL - if Jokerit/Slovan/Medvescak can afford KHL, I see no reason why should not german club afford it as well, epsecially from big cities like Berlin/Munchen. You can not operate with sponsorship, which you see in DEL. Hockey is sponsor by small firms in domestic league, but KHL´s sponsors are big world companies. German companies want to expand to russian market or to get better deals here. They can sponsor GER KHL club. Look, CKD Groups sponsors/owns Lev Prague. Why? Because CKD has huge deals in Russia, sponsoring of Lev helps CKD to get more and more deals. Slovan and Transpetrol/Tatravagonka are the same. Yes, I can see problem in Germany if Arabs owns firms operating in Germany, that can be a problem.

I know only about Eisbaren´s owner. Does AEG want to expand to Russia/KHL´s territory? The same with Red Bull. If you reply YES, then joining KHL can help them. Russians/KHL can give them offer which can not be refused. I can imagine situation that joining KHL has NOTHING with hockey, but key point is bussiness of the club´s owner. Example is there, CKD. Red Bull is my 1st choice here.