Reason For Getting Outshot

WhiteLight*

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Brains: I think he does.

Composure: Takes time to develop that, it's not something you have or you don't. He's already showed more composure this season.

Skill: He's a really good passer and has a nice hard shot. Stickhandles pretty well too(see his assist on Spezza's goal vs. Phoenix). Don't know what else you're looking for.

I'm not saying he doesn't/won't have those, I'm saying they're not on Gonchar's level.

Gonchar has put up ridiculous point totals in career. I don't see Wiercioch coming anywhere near that, therefore he has less skill.

Gonchar would consistently make the right play. Kept it very simple, amazing positioning, crisp passing, so consistent. He was like a machine last year, it was Lidstrom-esque. Therefore Wiercioch has less composure. Yes that can improve but Gonchar's composure was on an elite level last year.

Gonchar is one of the best defensemen of his generation. A little hard to believe you think Wiercioch can be as good as he was.
 

SlapJack

Scum bag Sens
Dec 6, 2010
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We are -29.20 in PP minus PK time.

Then team closest to that is The Blues with -15.53.

That is the main reason we are being out-shot so badly.

We have been a man down for half a game through the first seven. That includes five or six 5-3 situations.

Yeah it's so bad that Ottawa has the most PK time per game, AND the least PP time. Brutal. 4 of the 7 power play goals given up have been the result of 5 on 3's. Only 1 officially, but the 3 others were right at the end.
 

bert

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Nov 11, 2002
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Well as soon as Gryba is off this team the puck retrieval and turnovers are going to almost get cut in half. He just is not an NHL player, I don't understand why he plays over Corvo.

Bottom line is the neutral zone play has to be better, this will help with puck retrieval and puck possession thus resulting in less shots against.

Hope they can get a W against Edmonton then they have some time off to relax and work on systems.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
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I'm not saying he doesn't/won't have those, I'm saying they're not on Gonchar's level.

Gonchar has put up ridiculous point totals in career. I don't see Wiercioch coming anywhere near that, therefore he has less skill.

Gonchar would consistently make the right play. Kept it very simple, amazing positioning, crisp passing, so consistent. He was like a machine last year, it was Lidstrom-esque. Therefore Wiercioch has less composure. Yes that can improve but Gonchar's composure was on an elite level last year.

Gonchar is one of the best defensemen of his generation. A little hard to believe you think Wiercioch can be as good as he was.

To be fair, the real question is whether Wiercioch can be as good as Gonchar was with the Senators.

Not in terms of his entire career.
 

WORLDSTARHIPHOP

Sens <<<<<<<<<< NHL
May 31, 2008
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Gonchar was a veteran anchor to a young D-corps. Not much a surprise to what's happening right now when he leaves. We've got Karlsson who's high risk but still manages to make a good play most of the time (depending on how well he's playing), an old Phillips that's behind the play most of the time, and Methot, who's possibly the only anchor on this d-corps so far. Then we got Wiercioch/Gryba/Cowen who are all young and relatively inexperienced for defensemen.

Basically what Fuhr was saying was gonna happen when we didn't sign Gonchar is happening. However, I'm pretty sure these boys will improve as they play more games.

It also doesn't help them settle when we've been getting absolutely killed on penalties.
 

burf

Registered User
Mar 27, 2012
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Ignoring the problems with our bottom 2 D-pairs, there's still a giant question of why 9 of our forwards are getting killed - and I mean KILLED - in possession, while Turris, MacArthur, and whoever's on their right wing are managing to dominate the possession game despite getting the fewest offensive-zone starts on the team (and despite having the most defensive zone starts on the team).

I mean, it's definitely not all on our D when one of our forward lines is dominating like the Sharks, while every other line is playing worse than the Sabres.

For reference see:
Possession numbers at 5 on 5 - http://www.extraskater.com/players/on-ice?team=ott&sit=5v5&pos=F
Deployment (zone starts) - http://www.extraskater.com/players/deployment?pos=F&team=ott
 

WORLDSTARHIPHOP

Sens <<<<<<<<<< NHL
May 31, 2008
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Ignoring the problems with our bottom 2 D-pairs, there's still a giant question of why 9 of our forwards are getting killed - and I mean KILLED - in possession, while Turris, MacArthur, and whoever's on their right wing, are managing to dominate the possession game despite getting the fewest offensive-zone starts on the team (and despite having the most defensive zone starts on the team).

I mean, it's definitely not all on our D when one of our forward lines is dominating like the Sharks, while every other line is playing worse than the Sabres.

For reference see:
Possession numbers at 5 on 5 - http://www.extraskater.com/players/on-ice?team=ott&sit=5v5&pos=F
Deployment (zone starts) - http://www.extraskater.com/players/deployment?pos=F&team=ott

How many of our players can actually manage to keep their puck on their stick? Most of our players are very vertical. Greening. Smith. Condra. Michalek. Kassian. Neil. etc. When the puck touches their stick it's dump and go, chip and chase.

The only players that actually keep the puck are basically Spezza, Turris, Ryan, and Karlsson.
 

WhiteLight*

Guest
To be fair, the real question is whether Wiercioch can be as good as Gonchar was with the Senators.

Not in terms of his entire career.

Gonchar probably had the best defensive season of his career last year. He was a #1 defenseman on a playoff team.

Does Wiercioch have #1 defenseman potential? Extremely unlikely, and pretty much impossible in the near future.

He's not replacing Gonchar anytime soon.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
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Gonchar probably had the best defensive season of his career last year. He was a #1 defenseman on a playoff team.

Does Wiercioch have #1 defenseman potential? Extremely unlikely, and pretty much impossible in the near future.

He's not replacing Gonchar anytime soon.

Certainly not on the defensive side of things.

When Gonchar first came into the league, he wasn't as solid defensively as he was by the end.

However, his offense was far superior to Wiercioch.

I like Patrick though - it's nice to have a guy on the PP who knows what he's doing.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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Certainly not on the defensive side of things.

When Gonchar first came into the league, he wasn't as solid defensively as he was by the end.

However, his offense was far superior to Wiercioch.

I like Patrick though - it's nice to have a guy on the PP who knows what he's doing.

I'll be honest, I don't really remember Gonchar's first 3 years that well, but from a purely production point of view, they were pretty similar to what Wiercioch has been doing (over a much smaller sample of course).

Either way, it's a little unfair to be comparing Wiercioch to a probably hall of fame defenceman.

Back to the actual topic; we finally outshot an opponent (thoroughly at that) and we lose in what a lot of people are calling an uninspiring effort. I missed most of the game, so I can't really comment on anything after the first period.
 

DylanSensFan

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Aug 3, 2010
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Patience is indeed going to be key

It's rather hard to believe that Gonchar was the linchpin of our defense last year however

Part of the frustration is that we were rock solid defensively last year and now we suck? It doesn't make much sense

Part of that is the forwards fault... they are not in sync with the d right now. That will come.
 

supsens

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Oct 6, 2013
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The first two lines are loaded up with guys that won't back check, it's tough for the D to cover the guy down low and the guys flying down the wings at them at the same time.
 

sensfandan

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Aug 21, 2004
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The first two lines are loaded up with guys that won't back check, it's tough for the D to cover the guy down low and the guys flying down the wings at them at the same time.

I can't imagine a single situation where a player would be flying down the wing, AND a team would be engaged in a cycle at the same time...
 

sensfandan

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Aug 21, 2004
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Part of that is the forwards fault... they are not in sync with the d right now. That will come.

Agreed, the chemistry is all out of whack right now. We forged a new identity last year when all our stars went down, but now that we have significantly more skill in the lineup we need to figure out what kind of team we're going to be again. The players as a whole are thinking too much and not reacting.
 

arglebargle

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Feb 27, 2008
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Michalek and Cowen have stuck out to me as being probably the worst players on the team so far.
 

Countdown0

Deep Breath... nope, still mad!
Jun 28, 2010
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I think Cowen is fine.

I can recall one very good play busting up that 2 on 1 pass at the last second.

We have some young defencemen. We're going to have to be patient.

This. Everyone needs to lay off the defense. The only regular in our line-up over 30 is Philips, and he get's bottom pairing time.

We may be a playoff team, but we aren't a contending team yet.

Patience is our ally. We are young with sky high potential. Let it happen, and it will happen.
 

supsens

Registered User
Oct 6, 2013
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I can't imagine a single situation where a player would be flying down the wing, AND a team would be engaged in a cycle at the same time...

No your right no dman have ever pinched and no player has ever joined in the rush late and been given a sweet pass, and the great 99 never fed anyone the puck from behind the net.
Like you said as soon as one guy crosses the line on the attack everyone else on his team just stands still.
How foolish of me, thanks for setting me right
 

We Want the Cup 2010

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Jun 16, 2009
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Cowen is having some issues when he has the puck, and Weircioch is struggling defensively at times and in the NHL teams are going to make you pay for those mistakes. Can you imagine what this board, heck even this city, would be like without Anderson and Lehner in nets bailing the team out constantly. Anderson was the 1st star in the home opener making a few ridiculous saves.
 

BondraTime

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Nov 20, 2005
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No your right no dman have ever pinched and no player has ever joined in the rush late and been given a sweet pass, and the great 99 never fed anyone the puck from behind the net.
Like you said as soon as one guy crosses the line on the attack everyone else on his team just stands still.
How foolish of me, thanks for setting me right

He is right, I can't think of a single situation where the D would need to cover wingers flying down the wing and a man down low at the same time.

What does Gretzky passing the puck to players from down low have to do with players being down low and flying down the wings? The guys he was passing too were in front of the net or D coming in from the point.

I think you are trying, and failing, to describe typical 3-2 plays that happen every game. Drive to the net and have a late man. Obviously the late man will get the puck on 3-2's 85% of the time, because it makes it hard for ANY D in the league. It's not something that effects only the Sens.
 

Hammertyme

Registered User
Jun 20, 2006
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Cowen is getting no support from Wiercioch right now, he's pretty much just a passenger at even strength. He looks good from the blue line in and that's it. We can't be relying on him as a top 4 puck mover, as he's killing our possession game right now, in my mind he's really just a bottom pairing PP specialist, ala Kurtis Foster or MA Bergeron. His 15:40 of ice time last night shows me Maclean agrees.

Cowen looks bad because he's over committing and trying to do everything himself. It gets him caught out of position and he takes stupid penalties. IMO our best option at the moment is to put Corvo with Cowen to handle the breakouts/transition. Obviously that's just a stop gap and hopefully Murray can find a better solution.

I agree. If PW46 is getting bigger, as a few have said, he needs to start using it. He is shy in the corners and does not want to take a hit to make a play. If he could develop more effectiveness/aggression/balls in the first 2/3 of the ice he would do much better. At present he is a defensive liability. Shortening his passes would help. Its like he"s trying for the stretch all the time. Teams know he"s good at it .
As far as the ineffective third d pairing these guys are playing against the other teams top lines so the stats are going to be reflective of shutdown role defenders. A pair of shutdown defenders don't typically have good advanced stats or +-. Offence, its not their role. Hits blocked shots clearing the zone is paramount. Scoring /shots/ offensive play is a bonus.
You also need to remember that Methot and Karlsson aren't usually out against the top lines. They are often out against the checkers and yet they are giving out a lot of chances. We cannot expect Karlsson to be physical and cannot afford him to be but playing 30 min a game he has to pick and choose where he's going to give 100% and it's not in the d zone. This often leaves Methot with the lions share of the defensive work.

As far as pinching a dman needs to do it to stop a play along the boards. WHere are the high forwards covering?
 

Hammertyme

Registered User
Jun 20, 2006
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He is right, I can't think of a single situation where the D would need to cover wingers flying down the wing and a man down low at the same time.

What does Gretzky passing the puck to players from down low have to do with players being down low and flying down the wings? The guys he was passing too were in front of the net or D coming in from the point.

I think you are trying, and failing, to describe typical 3-2 plays that happen every game. Drive to the net and have a late man. Obviously the late man will get the puck on 3-2's 85% of the time, because it makes it hard for ANY D in the league. It's not something that effects only the Sens.

This is where the concept of BACKCHECKING comes in. We change on the backcheck.
 

umma gumma

Registered User
Apr 8, 2005
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We're getting outshot because of Spezza. A captain has to block shots, all of them...even the ones going wide.
 

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