Realistically, how do you fix this team

TheImpatientPanther

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Ekblad is better than most PK options, so it would be questionable to give his PK time to someone slightly worse in order to give him more PP time from someone slightly better. It's fine if he can handle the extra minutes, but not if it means making the already iffy PK worse.

Is Hoffman that much better than Yandle? Is it really easier to hide a one-trick pony on a non-scoring non-checking line than in the third D-pair? I think both of them offer the same problem with establishing a winning 5v5 playing style. If the team is supposed to be better on defense, it's probably most important that the forwards get better at playing team defense. Would Hoffman contribute consistently there?

PK leaders in TOI this past year were: (20th ranked PK)
We were 7th least penalized team (7.25 PIMS/game)

Acciari - 2:32 per game
Sceviour - 2:30 per game
Stralman - 2:29 per game
Stillman - 2:22 per game
Ekblad - 2:01 per game
Weegar - 1:47 per game

Surprisingly, Stillman and Stralman had more time than Ekblad and Weegar wasn't that far behind.

PK leaders in TOI last year: (10th ranked PK)
We were 17th most penalized team (8.39 PIMS/game)

Matheson - 2:23 per game
Ekblad - 2:18 per game
Barkov - 2:04 per game
Sceviour - 2:01 per game
Sheahan - 1:47 per game
Pysyk - 1:44 per game

Take from this what you will.

Matheson's PK minutes were chopped in half from 18-19 to 19-20, Barkov was on the PK last year a lot more but Ekblad's PK mins only slightly decreased. Not sure what the reason for the big drop-off but felt we were more aggressive on the PK/puck carrier last year and didn't play such a collapse style.
I'm sure Bob didn't help but also a new coach/scheme doesn't help to keep continuity.


As for your 2nd question, Hoffman is better at providing this team with a legit 30 goal scorer/PP threat and still plays mostly 2nd line minutes, he is still one of our fastest skaters and will age better than Yandle.
Yandle has already been reduced to 3rd pairing duties 5 on 5, his ice time has dropped a lot since his peak in 2017-18, a full 4 mins per game from 24 to 20 mins/game. He's not suddenly going to get better defensively and that's a bigger problem as we play 5 on 5 more than the PP.

Hoffman has been the 3rd best point producer (65 goals, 129 pts in 151 games) behind only Huberdeau and Barkov since coming over 2 years ago. Is he that easily replaceable?
He's also tied with Huberdeau for 37 even strength goals, so he's not just a one trick pony. (leads with 28 PPG's the past two years)

I'd much rather keep a high producing winger (30 goal/65-70pts) who is a big reason the PP took off along with Huberdeau and Barkov improving, (Yandle did have impact and is due his credit) over Yandle who is basically just an over-paid specialist at this point.
Defense is the big issue here but it'd be nice to not lose both Dadonov AND Hoffman if possible.

I'd take the risk in Huberdeau adapting to a new spot/role on the PP, he led the team in PP points this year with 29, he had 34 last year, a lot of the PP already runs through his hands.
Ekblad was playing 3 PP mins a game in 2015-16 and 2016-17 but took on more PK role after that, it's not like it's a whole new thing for him to learn or get overwhelmed with.
 

SoupyFIN

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Nov 7, 2011
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Don't these contradict each other?
I didn't say that Tippett would just replace Hoffman's production, that's why I used "easier". Tippett has been the shooter for years on teams he's played for and he's good at it, whereas we have no one on the team with recent PP QB experience. Ekblad has some, but it's with the second unit.

I just don't see the comparison between replacing a primary puck handler and replacing a primary shooter, when you consider in what we have to fill those spots.

The Cats' PP% in 2016-17 and 2017-18, Yandle's first two season with the Cats: 17.0% and 18.9%
The same for Hoffman's first two seasons with the Cats, 2018-19 and 2019-20: 26.8% and 21-3%

Hoffman might be a one-trick pony but it's a very good one. Before Hoff's arrival, and after the departure of Smith and March, the Panthers have had difficulty of scoring with relative ease especially on the PP. Yandle didn't move the needle on the PP% so statistically speaking aka moneypuck-wise he hasn't been a major (or maybe even a minor) factor for the recent improvement of the PP.

Guys like Hoffman will get paid, a lot, because the league still places a huge premium for scoring and the Cats will be sorely missing that element if Hoffman decides to sell his services for another team.
So Hoffman gets all the credit and Yandle gets none, right..

Hoffman will get paid and I'll be glad to let someone else do it. The last 10 years have shown giving big money and term to guys on the wrong side of 30 doesn't work out in most cases. Yandle is a good example of this.
 
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Howboutthempanthers

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Loved the rant and agree with it, this isnt just on the PP but 5 on 5 in general whether fore/back-checking, general support leaving DZ through NZ to limit turnovers. Their isnt enough intensity and effort on a consistent basis.

I remember at start of year, players were saying how high/up-tempo Q's practices were but they clearly didn't play how they practiced then.

Watching the Isles, they dont even play a complicated system, just full of support from DZ through NZ. They spread out the defenses once in the OZ and just force teams to play one on one, win battles keeping it down low and then throw it out front for a jam play/rebound/one timer chance.
Now when Barzal is on the ice, its more puck possession and the D all zero in on him opening lanes for his teammates driving to the net.

Their passes aren't telegraphed or hard in the OZ/DZ, again, they're always spread out and have softer but accurate passes, never any blind drop passes or dump sans the chase part.

Just to pile on, we reset our PP so much at the blue line and how many times does the puck bounce over Yandle/others stick, its maddening.
Also Hoff shot is so telegraphed but luckily he has a rocket to overcome it.
Hence why we need just Barkov and Huberdeau on the PP passing and 3 shooters who are selfish looking to put it on net.
Yep. Exactly.
 

TheImpatientPanther

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I find the backlash against Yandle hilarious. Especially by posters like the TheImpatientPanther who just a couple of seasons ago was nominating him for best Panthers defenseman of all time!

We've been over this a couple times no?
I said he was arguably our best offensive defenseman vs Campbell and that was always a small dig at Pumacon and Soupy's love for Campbell.
I scanned some of my posts regarding Yandle back to late 2018/early 2019 and was open to trading him then.
Some were open to trading Ekblad a couple years and was one of his biggest defenders to avoid that.
Yandle has run his course here imo.
 
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GrumpyKelly

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So Hoffman gets all the credit and Yandle gets none, right..

Hoffman will get paid and I'll be glad to let someone else do it. The last 10 years have shown giving big money and term to guys on the wrong side of 30 doesn't work out in most cases. Yandle is a good example of this.

The thing with Hoff is that his shot isn't going anywhere even if he's 35. I hate his lazy ass at times but he's literally that guy who can just stand in one spot on the PP and be effective and worth his money. Unless he's asking something stupid ofc, I'd consider keeping him.
 
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Dread Clawz

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Nov 25, 2006
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The new GM and Q are going to have to decide on what our identity going forward will be. Are we going to be a dangerous offensive team that relies on scoring and PP but plays poorly on defense? Or are we going to sacrifice some of our offense and scoring to improve our defensive play in front of Bobrovsky? It's a tough question honestly. Our identity lately has been the first option and it clearly isn't working. I think we need more balance.

I agree. There's no use having all these specialists around just to have a great pp but still not be able to make the playoffs. The 96' team had great success both in the regular season and the playoffs(obviously), and the pp qb was Jason Woolley, who didn't even dress consistently. They managed. And that team was routinely outshooting opponents in the playoffs.
 

Pigge

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PK leaders in TOI this past year were: (20th ranked PK)
We were 7th least penalized team (7.25 PIMS/game)

Acciari - 2:32 per game
Sceviour - 2:30 per game
Stralman - 2:29 per game
Stillman - 2:22 per game
Ekblad - 2:01 per game
Weegar - 1:47 per game

Surprisingly, Stillman and Stralman had more time than Ekblad and Weegar wasn't that far behind.

PK leaders in TOI last year: (10th ranked PK)
We were 17th most penalized team (8.39 PIMS/game)

Matheson - 2:23 per game
Ekblad - 2:18 per game
Barkov - 2:04 per game
Sceviour - 2:01 per game
Sheahan - 1:47 per game
Pysyk - 1:44 per game

Take from this what you will.

Matheson's PK minutes were chopped in half from 18-19 to 19-20, Barkov was on the PK last year a lot more but Ekblad's PK mins only slightly decreased. Not sure what the reason for the big drop-off but felt we were more aggressive on the PK/puck carrier last year and didn't play such a collapse style.
I'm sure Bob didn't help but also a new coach/scheme doesn't help to keep continuity.


As for your 2nd question, Hoffman is better at providing this team with a legit 30 goal scorer/PP threat and still plays mostly 2nd line minutes, he is still one of our fastest skaters and will age better than Yandle.
Yandle has already been reduced to 3rd pairing duties 5 on 5, his ice time has dropped a lot since his peak in 2017-18, a full 4 mins per game from 24 to 20 mins/game. He's not suddenly going to get better defensively and that's a bigger problem as we play 5 on 5 more than the PP.

Hoffman has been the 3rd best point producer (65 goals, 129 pts in 151 games) behind only Huberdeau and Barkov since coming over 2 years ago. Is he that easily replaceable?
He's also tied with Huberdeau for 37 even strength goals, so he's not just a one trick pony. (leads with 28 PPG's the past two years)

I'd much rather keep a high producing winger (30 goal/65-70pts) who is a big reason the PP took off along with Huberdeau and Barkov improving, (Yandle did have impact and is due his credit) over Yandle who is basically just an over-paid specialist at this point.
Defense is the big issue here but it'd be nice to not lose both Dadonov AND Hoffman if possible.

I'd take the risk in Huberdeau adapting to a new spot/role on the PP, he led the team in PP points this year with 29, he had 34 last year, a lot of the PP already runs through his hands.
Ekblad was playing 3 PP mins a game in 2015-16 and 2016-17 but took on more PK role after that, it's not like it's a whole new thing for him to learn or get overwhelmed with.
Maybe Ekblad is indeed ready to fully bloom into the Duncan Keith of this team. He has had an interesting career, playing a lot of PP and no PK his first three years and then suddenly switching to a lot of PK and a lot less PP in the following three. He was a sensation early on, but I do think the pressure to be a top producer got in the way of his development and was partly to blame for his slump in the middle. This past year under Q has been a revelation in my eyes, and he has managed to combine his best defense with his best offensive output despite being off the PP. It will be very exciting to watch that continue, and he will undoubtedly be expected to play more than his 22 minutes per game.

The decline of the PK could very well be blamed on more Acciari and less Barkov. Looking at the good years in Chicago, Q didn't just have grinders who weren't afraid to block a shot on the PK. He had players with high hockey IQ but not necessarily the physical ability or skillset to excel on offense. Guys like Kruger, Frolik and Handzus, and he did have Toews play a decent amount of PK minutes as well. Hopefully the new GM can find some more smart players.

The stats don't really identify Yandle as a huge liability 5v5, do they? Below average, but not as bad as Stralman, Stillman and Matheson. I think Yandle and Brown worked decently well a lot of the time. It hasn't been easy to find good pairings outside Ekblad-Weegar, but it's not impossible (except with Matheson).
 
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Joe Hallenback

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Hey guys coming from the Jets board. Would you as fans be interested at all in moving Ekblad for Laine in some kind of deal?
 

TheImpatientPanther

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Jan 17, 2013
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Hey guys coming from the Jets board. Would you as fans be interested at all in moving Ekblad for Laine in some kind of deal?

Not really. Ekblad has been progressing well the last couple years.
We would love to add Barkovs BFF but not at the cost of Ekblad. Our defense is already bottom 5, you take away our best all around D and we will struggle immensely without him.

I could see Huberdeau for Laine as the only possibility but even then, most of us don't want to move him either.
 

Jean Luc Discard

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Jul 11, 2014
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Hey guys coming from the Jets board. Would you as fans be interested at all in moving Ekblad for Laine in some kind of deal?

Sure, as long as we manage to get similar dman back into the lineup via another trade and the odds of that happening are rather minuscule.
 

KW

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Hey guys coming from the Jets board. Would you as fans be interested at all in moving Ekblad for Laine in some kind of deal?
Ekblad for Laine plus your top D prospect. I might do that depending on the prospect. Ek is kinda slow.
 

FrolikFan67

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Apr 29, 2012
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I’m starting to be completely onboard with the idea of trading Huberdeau for a bonafide top pairing LD, if possible.

We have Ekblad longterm on the first pairing, and Weegar in the top-4 as well. Leaving two critical spots left. If you can fill that other top spot then filling one spot on the 2nd is much easier via ufa, someone like a Dillon to pair up with Weegar (and yes Weegar has done a fine job this past season but longterm he’s probably more suited for the 2nd line).

We have barkov at center (and not much of anything else down the middle), we can’t trade him unless it’s for a comparable center. A lateral move essentially. And we have Tippett, Denisenko, and potentially another pick this year like Quinn or Mercer (or holtz if he drops). Wingers are easier to acquire, draft and develop. I would hate to lose Huberdeau, but I think we’ll position ourselves better if we swap him for a top pairing option (again, if possible).
 

FinlandPanther

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I’m starting to be completely onboard with the idea of trading Huberdeau for a bonafide top pairing LD, if possible.

We have Ekblad longterm on the first pairing, and Weegar in the top-4 as well. Leaving two critical spots left. If you can fill that other top spot then filling one spot on the 2nd is much easier via ufa, someone like a Dillon to pair up with Weegar (and yes Weegar has done a fine job this past season but longterm he’s probably more suited for the 2nd line).

We have barkov at center (and not much of anything else down the middle), we can’t trade him unless it’s for a comparable center. A lateral move essentially. And we have Tippett, Denisenko, and potentially another pick this year like Quinn or Mercer (or holtz if he drops). Wingers are easier to acquire, draft and develop. I would hate to lose Huberdeau, but I think we’ll position ourselves better if we swap him for a top pairing option (again, if possible).
If we’re trading Huberdeau someone like Seth Jones is coming back and there’s really no if ands or buts about it.
 

FrolikFan67

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If we’re trading Huberdeau someone like Seth Jones is coming back and there’s really no if ands or buts about it.
Your saying if we do trade him then someone of that caliber has to come back? Or that we absolutely would get a return like that?

On the topic of jones I don’t think clb would even entertain the idea, I’m not sure if they’d trade werenski tbh. There plenty of quality D out there that I’m sure teams would offer, but as far as legit top pairing guys it’s hard to predict who realistically could be available.

and I don’t want a package deal of a 2nd line center and top-4 D. You can come across 2nd line D via ufa, same for 2nd line centers as well as trades. But to get a top pairing D is difficult, if we’re trading someone of huberdeau’s caliber we have to focus solely on getting the highest quality single piece back, not quantity. I just wonder who we could get because going down the list of LD across the league I don’t think many teams will part with a highend young top pairing D for a winger with 3yrs left (granted at a good aav). Maybe for a kucherov or Kane or something at the same age, but idk honestly what Huberdeau could return. Packages I’m sure would be great out there, but I want that one piece on D and worry about the rest via other avenues. If you trade Huberdeau you have to hit it out of the park
 

FinlandPanther

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Your saying if we do trade him then someone of that caliber has to come back? Or that we absolutely would get a return like that?

On the topic of jones I don’t think clb would even entertain the idea, I’m not sure if they’d trade werenski tbh. There plenty of quality D out there that I’m sure teams would offer, but as far as legit top pairing guys it’s hard to predict who realistically could be available.

and I don’t want a package deal of a 2nd line center and top-4 D. You can come across 2nd line D via ufa, same for 2nd line centers as well as trades. But to get a top pairing D is difficult, if we’re trading someone of huberdeau’s caliber we have to focus solely on getting the highest quality single piece back, not quantity. I just wonder who we could get because going down the list of LD across the league I don’t think many teams will part with a highend young top pairing D for a winger with 3yrs left (granted at a good aav). Maybe for a kucherov or Kane or something at the same age, but idk honestly what Huberdeau could return. Packages I’m sure would be great out there, but I want that one piece on D and worry about the rest via other avenues. If you trade Huberdeau you have to hit it out of the park
Yeah I’m saying if we’re trading one of the best wingers in the game then we need to be getting back a 1D like Seth Jones back.
 
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FrolikFan67

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Yeah I’m saying if we’re trading one of the best wingers in the game then we need to be getting back a 1D like Seth Jones back.
If we could, I’d drive huby to the airport now. We won’t get something on that level. I wish we could though.

Only way a team trades a D like that is to get a top center, not a winger. But I am hoping that a team that’s deep on the backend would swing one to get an player of huberdeau’s level. That’s my hope with girard, but they’re pretty set up front too so I don’t know they would.

I’m focusing on LD: we’re not getting Josi, hedman, Hughes, dahlin, chabot, provorov, heiskanen, I doubt girard, I doubt Slavin, I doubt werenski. I don’t see the point in Anaheim trading lindholm for a winger with where they are currently. I think OEL could maybe be possible with chychrun’s development. I want a big single piece like that, I don’t know if he would return something like that. Maybe. I just don’t know, my guess is no. I think it’s more likely to get something like brodin and a plus, or klefbom and a plus. Brodin and the 9th or something, but they’re so thin at Center I don’t see them trading that pick. And we could probably get brodin for much less.

I don’t know, depends on what the offers are like. It’s impossible for us to know but I certainly hope he’s valued to the point a team would trade a piece like one of the guys mentioned.
 

PBPantherfan

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If we could, I’d drive huby to the airport now. We won’t get something on that level. I wish we could though.

Only way a team trades a D like that is to get a top center, not a winger. But I am hoping that a team that’s deep on the backend would swing one to get an player of huberdeau’s level. That’s my hope with girard, but they’re pretty set up front too so I don’t know they would.

I’m focusing on LD: we’re not getting Josi, hedman, Hughes, dahlin, chabot, provorov, heiskanen, I doubt girard, I doubt Slavin, I doubt werenski. I don’t see the point in Anaheim trading lindholm for a winger with where they are currently. I think OEL could maybe be possible with chychrun’s development. I want a big single piece like that, I don’t know if he would return something like that. Maybe. I just don’t know, my guess is no. I think it’s more likely to get something like brodin and a plus, or klefbom and a plus. Brodin and the 9th or something, but they’re so thin at Center I don’t see them trading that pick. And we could probably get brodin for much less.

I don’t know, depends on what the offers are like. It’s impossible for us to know but I certainly hope he’s valued to the point a team would trade a piece like one of the guys mentioned.

Problem is when the panthers trade a big expensive piece they usually get back a bunch of cheap pieces.
 
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FrolikFan67

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Problem is when the panthers trade a big expensive piece they usually get back a bunch of cheap pieces.
And I think that’s the case with most teams. Because usually that happens when a team begins a rebuild. Most teams won’t do a 1 for 1 big trade. And being a winger I don’t see a #1 D coming back, but there are 1st pairing D that would, it’s just a matter of who is realistically available.
 

Pigge

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The Panthers should target Shayne Gostisbehere. With Provorov and Sanheim eating into his playing time he should be reasonably available. His decent offense and lacking defense should fit right in with the Panthers, but it would feel good to have a hometown guy on the team. Not a lot of those around.
 

FinlandPanther

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The Panthers should target Shayne Gostisbehere. With Provorov and Sanheim eating into his playing time he should be reasonably available. His decent offense and lacking defense should fit right in with the Panthers, but it would feel good to have a hometown guy on the team. Not a lot of those around.
The only way this team should target Ghost is if Yandle is gone. We don’t need another dog shit defensive player.
 
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FrolikFan67

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The Panthers should target Shayne Gostisbehere. With Provorov and Sanheim eating into his playing time he should be reasonably available. His decent offense and lacking defense should fit right in with the Panthers, but it would feel good to have a hometown guy on the team. Not a lot of those around.
Outside of being a local kid, he isn’t what we need. Not anymore, he’s dropped off some. I mean if they want matheson then by all means :)
 
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Haj

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No one is going to like this, but the best way to retool is to trade Weegar and Huberdeau.

Weegar is 26, Huberdeau is 27. Their value is high right now and they will start their decline.

Basically, trade both of them for good players that are 21/22/23 that are earlier in their age curve:

Defensemen like: Vince Dunn, Victor Mete, Rasmus Andersson, Gavrikov

If I can trade Huberdeau, Heponiemi for Gaudreau, Rasmus Andersson and a future first i do that. (Lopsided trade, hope CGY is stupid)

If I can trade Weegar for a player like Nikolai Ehlers, Jordan Greenway, Luke Kunin, Players that are 22-24 that have some upside and can grow with Barkov.
I would not re-sign Hoffman. I'd resign Dadonov if its close to 5 million. Re-sign Haula if its around 3 million.

I hold on to Matheson. His value is at an all time low. Try to rehab his value so Seattle takes him in the expansion draft.

I offer sheet Cirelli.

Grudgingly, I keep Yandle. He is terrible to watch but if he is sheltered on the 3rd pairing and productive on the power play that enough. Even though he is overpaid.


I get rid of Vatrano, Sceviour, Boyle,
 

KW

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No one is going to like this, but the best way to retool is to trade Weegar and Huberdeau.

Weegar is 26, Huberdeau is 27. Their value is high right now and they will start their decline.

Basically, trade both of them for good players that are 21/22/23 that are earlier in their age curve:

Defensemen like: Vince Dunn, Victor Mete, Rasmus Andersson, Gavrikov

If I can trade Huberdeau, Heponiemi for Gaudreau, Rasmus Andersson and a future first i do that. (Lopsided trade, hope CGY is stupid)

If I can trade Weegar for a player like Nikolai Ehlers, Jordan Greenway, Luke Kunin, Players that are 22-24 that have some upside and can grow with Barkov.
I would not re-sign Hoffman. I'd resign Dadonov if its close to 5 million. Re-sign Haula if its around 3 million.

I hold on to Matheson. His value is at an all time low. Try to rehab his value so Seattle takes him in the expansion draft.

I offer sheet Cirelli.

Grudgingly, I keep Yandle. He is terrible to watch but if he is sheltered on the 3rd pairing and productive on the power play that enough. Even though he is overpaid.


I get rid of Vatrano, Sceviour, Boyle,
I’m okay with trading Hubie and Weegar if he’s asking for too much money and too long a term.

I’m not okay keeping Dadonov, he’s already in a decline. I send Haula to orbit. I might keep Hoffman as long as money and term are okay.

Matheson, Yandle, .... argh so many to get rid of, so few options. Okay, there’s no hope, I give up.
 
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