Realistically, could Malkin have led a team to a Cup w/o Crosby?

[DrDangles]

Malkin 12 > Kane 16 > Malkin 09.

Malkin is obviously better than Kane, I'm not arguing that. That poster was saying that "Malkin's average > Kane's peak" which is just ridiculous.

I'd love to hear the argument on Kane's 16 over Malkin's 09. Malkin's playoff run that season is arguably the most impressive by any forward not named Gretzky or Lemieux, and he maintained his lead in the scoring race over the majority of the season on top of that.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I'd love to hear the argument on Kane's 16 over Malkin's 09. Malkin's playoff run that season is arguably the most impressive by any forward not named Gretzky or Lemieux, and he maintained his lead in the scoring race over the majority of the season on top of that.

I was comparing regular season only. Combining regular season+playoffs makes no sense imo.

 

[pi314]

Well, unfortunately we will never know because Malkin just lacked that inner drive to be the best. It's really a shame he was happy to be Sidney Crosby's sidekick rather than driving his own team.

Would Messier have the reputation he has if he had been content playing his entire career as Gretzky's sidekick? Of course not.

Imagine what Malkin's reputation would have been like if he had went to a team like St. Louis after 2009 and led them to a Cup?

Malkin just lacks that inner drive to be known as the best and that's all on him. Instead of potentially being known as one of the All Time Greatest players in NHL history, all he will be remembered as was a very good player on Sidney Crosby's Pittsburgh teams.

It's almost like they got drafted by the same franchise.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Kane's peak season rivals anything Malkin has done.

Yes it's unreasonable. He is a clear #3.

Kane got a bunch of EN and 3v3 points that season. They have always been different caliber of players.

 

[daver]

Behind Sid and Ovechkin? that seems bonkers to me. He isn't clearly behind either. As for Kane? just for shorthand, Malkin's career pts/game is 1.19. Kane's top three seasons are 1.29 (his MVP year), and then 1.17 (the half-season), and 1.09. I'm really not sure Kane's peak is actually any better than average Malkin.

Overall career value:

Crosby
OV
Malkin

Playoff performances/playoff career value:

Crosby/Malkin
OV

Peak level of play:

Crosby/OV/Malkin

 

[daver]

Kane got a bunch of EN and 3v3 points that season. They have always been different caliber of players.

How many did he get and how many did Crosby and Benn get?

And why are those points valued any less than other points? Doesn't an OT point get your team an extra point?

 

[1OApick]

Okay, realistically, how many playoff teams are not a top-5 Cup contender trading their 1C for Malkin? Just going by last year... Listen, I'm not sure who you'd have as a top-5 Cup contender last year, but to me, the closest centers to Malkin who made the playoffs were uhh, idk, Bergeron, Backstrom, Matthews, Stamkos, Couturier, Kopitar, MacKinnon? I am certainly higher than average on Bergeron, Backstrom, Matthews, Couturier, and Kopitar, probably about average on Kopitar, but the only scenarios on this list that I don't think trading them for Malkin makes them a top-5 team are MacKinnon and *MAYBE* Kopitar, and I'm very uncertain on Kopitar, and I think MacKinnon should've won the MVP if we're deciding McDavid can't win because he didn't make the playoffs (love Hall, it was hilarious that he won, MacKinnon is better), and I'm very low on last year's Avs roster beyond their best like, 4-5 players. Malkin is insanely good.

RyJo to Malkin... Eklund's wet dream (why does he love Nashville so much??) - Nashville probably stomps everyone on their way to a Cup. I took to Arvidsson before his breakout year and he was one of those guys I'm proud of noticing despite not being on my team. Imagine Malkin centering Arvidsson/Forsberg, and knowing they'd almost always be on the ice with two of Josi, Ekholm, Subban, and Ellis. Insane. Nashville is great to begin with.

Its true. Many teams could be top5 contenders with Malkin. I think Minnesota would not be, maybe New Jersey, Philly, Toronto. Im talking about last season.

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

Crosby and Malkin need each other. They are both required to be firing on all cylinders in order to win it all. Which they have been. I don't think either of them can win the cup with the Pens without the other one

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I was comparing regular season only. Combining regular season+playoffs makes no sense imo.

When the question in the OP is about a player's ability to lead a team to a Cup, why would you NOT include playoffs?

 

[Varan]

When the question in the OP is about a player's ability to lead a team to a Cup, why would you NOT include playoffs?

LOL exactly!

 

[Varan]

Overall career value:

Crosby
OV
Malkin

Playoff performances/playoff career value:

Crosby/Malkin
OV

Peak level of play:

Crosby/OV/Malkin

I'm surprised that you have them equal in the playoffs

 

[Varan]

Thank goodness you qualified the OP with "realistically". It could have gotten offtrack otherwise.

Always looking out for HF

 

[Varan]

It depends on what this hypothetical is. Are we taking away Crosby and replacing him with an average 1C? Or just taking away Crosby? It's not really a question of "can Malkin lead the Penguins to a cup without Crosby", but rather "are the Penguins good enough to win a cup without Crosby"? There are just way too many hypotheticals for me to seriously answer this question.

A team could 100% win a cup with Malkin as their 1C, but that really says nothing.

I think you got the question confused, it's not a matter of taking out Malkin and wondering about what's left of the Pens, it's about putting Malkin on any other solid playoff team and determining whether or not he can lift them to a cup. You're too focused on the Pens and not on the team Malkin would join

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Crosby and Malkin need each other. They are both required to be firing on all cylinders in order to win it all. Which they have been. I don't think either of them can win the cup with the Pens without the other one

I think the flaw in this reasoning is, in the hypothetical scenario where Crosby doesn't exist (ie. it's just Malkin on the Pens), then that cap space would be allocated to a different center. The Pens' roster wouldn't simply just be EXACTLY as it is but minus Crosby.

Maybe they make a strong push to sign Tavares as a free agent? Maybe they push harder for Duchene? Or maybe they use that cap space to re-structure the defense corps to make it stronger?

That's the difficult part. Because it wouldn't just be a case of imagining this current Pens roster exactly as it is but without Crosby in it. Crosby's spot (and cap space) would be spent to improve the team somehow.

 

[Varan]

I think the flaw in this reasoning is, in the hypothetical scenario where Crosby doesn't exist (ie. it's just Malkin on the Pens), then that cap space would be allocated to a different center. The Pens' roster wouldn't simply just be EXACTLY as it is but minus Crosby.

Maybe they make a strong push to sign Tavares as a free agent? Maybe they push harder for Duchene? Or maybe they use that cap space to re-structure the defense corps to make it stronger?

That's the difficult part. Because it wouldn't just be a case of imagining this current Pens roster exactly as it is but without Crosby in it. Crosby's spot (and cap space) would be spent to improve the team somehow.

Can the replacement centre or other pieces offset the loss of Crosby? That's why I was asking if he was on a different team, a Crosby free scenario

 

[Thread The Needle]

With the way he has shown up in the playoffs I don't doubt it. Alas, we'll never know.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

When the question in the OP is about a player's ability to lead a team to a Cup, why would you NOT include playoffs?

The op is about leading a team to a cup, yes. But I was talking about a players peak performance. That has nothing to do with a cup.

 

[Bank Shot]

Could Crosby have done it without Malkin?

Chicken or egg thing here.

Really helps having another player putting up 25+ points in a playoff run.

 

[daver]

I'm surprised that you have them equal in the playoffs

IMO, Crosby has the edge but not as big as the gap between Malkin and the #3 playoff performer of their era.

 

[SI90]

I don’t think people give Malkin enough credit. He’s the real deal.

 

[Kale Hulls]

When Malkin is on, he is more dominant than Crosby.

 

[pi314]

When Malkin is on, he is more dominant than Crosby.

When Malkin is on, he is more dominant than any player alive.

Angry Geno is score.

 

[Kale Hulls]

When Malkin is on, he is more dominant than any player alive.

Angry Geno is score.

Not going to even think about disagreeing with that.

 

[Lebowski]

Under different circumstances, sure, he could have easily been THE guy on a cup winning team.

As far as the Pens’ three cup wins, they don’t get any of those without Crosby, though.

 

[Machinehead]

If the 2014 Rangers had a Malkin playing full steam i think they beat the Kings so yes

Lol drop Malkin onto that team with no other changes and they go 16-1.

For me, easy yes. Maybe not the Penguins the way they're constructed, because they're built to have two elite centers [just like those Rangers teams were built on elite depth which is why that's an extreme example] but in a vacuum, absolutely.