RD Timothy Liljegren - Ex-Rogle BK, SHL (2017, 17th, TOR) III

[93LEAFS]

This is allllll wrong and I feel like you know that, you're just using it now that you've been caught in your own argument

From what I remember, couturier fell bc of doubts on his true offensive upside, and would ya look at that, the scouts were right. Anyway, let the battle continue lol

Yet, he still been a ridiculously valuable player in the Jordan Staal mold. But, dur, he doesn't get enough points....

 

[Haatley]

Except you claim its an outrage people have him over Brannstrom, when that was almost a universal opinion prior to the draft. Doesn't seem you had an opinion on Brannstrom until he was drafted. Now you have an extremely strong one. If you thought he was going to go 7th, wouldn't he have been overdrafted by Arizona considering your stance on him now?

Apparently it wasn't universal for the guys who get paid big bucks to do it for a living.

He is the same tier prospect as Kylington at this point.

 

[93LEAFS]

Apparently it wasn't universal for the guys who get paid big bucks to do it for a living.

He is the same tier prospect as Kylington at this point.

Yes, and Scott Luce draft history outside the top 3 is just spotless and not worth questioning.......

And, no, he's better than Kylington was at the same age, and it will probably remain that way.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

https://canucksarmy.com/2017/06/14/nation-network-2017-prospect-profile-6-timothy-liljegren/

Liljegren missed the start of the season due to an infection of mononucleosis. Historically speaking, players infected with mono the summer prior or at the start of their draft eligible season perform below their true talent level. Again historically speaking, these players tend to be undervalued by both statistical models and the scouting community.

This is not always the case, but it has been a historical pattern.

I see it as just another facet that scouts overlook on draft day, along with other trends like undervaluing players picked out of the USHL, going for size over skill especially when it comes dmen, etc. Time will tell, of course, but the WJC showcase is a strong indicator that mono did have a part to play in Liljegren's play last season. Looked a lot better than what I remember from the U18s earlier this year

 

[stepdad gaary]

https://canucksarmy.com/2017/06/14/nation-network-2017-prospect-profile-6-timothy-liljegren/



I see it as just another facet that scouts overlook on draft day, along with other trends like undervaluing players picked out of the USHL, going for size over skill especially when it comes dmen, etc. Time will tell, of course, but the WJC showcase is a strong indicator that mono did have a part to play in Liljegren's play last season. Looked a lot better than what I remember from the U18s earlier this year

can we see the data on player who had mono during their draft year?

Otherwise none of this is meaningful. The article does not give any other examples either.

 

[Haatley]

Yes, and Scott Luce draft history outside the top 3 is just spotless and not worth questioning.......

And, no, he's better than Kylington was at the same age, and it will probably remain that way.

What seperates him from Kylington?
Kylington is a great prospect. Just isn't in the upper echelon of D prospects.

 

[zharkenby]

What seperates him from Kylington?
Kylington is a great prospect. Just isn't in the upper echelon of D prospects.

Kylington isn't on the leafs

 

[TheDoldrums]

Kylington isn't on the leafs

So you think Liljegren can't be that good of a prospect because he went 17th overall...and now you find him comparable to Kylington, who went 60th overall. Of course.

 

[4thline]

With Liljegren's standing there are two "falls" to consider

The 1st

Merit Based Consensus Opinion- dropping from Top 2 to Top ~11. Play fell off in his draft year, to be determined if it was reflective of his true ability or a temporary aberration. In any case the added risk dropped him in the eyes of the hockey world to being seen as a borderline top 10 player and the 3rd best D in the draft from being slam dunk best D and a top 3.

Until he proves otherwise that's how he should be seen in the eyes of the hockey community

The 2nd
Draft Day List Variation- 14 lists, given how surprised the majority of the hockey world was he was available at 17 it is more likely that the drop from ~11 to 17 was based more on some teams having a particular guy higher than all teams having him that low especially given the volatility of this draft. Illustrated by 7 lists with none having him below 10 creating a situation where he wouldn't go until 15. What's yet to be seen is if that variation is justified and if teams will be vindicated in having those minority opinion players ahead

Not enough of a fall to signify more than list variation, no change of standing.

 

[zharkenby]

So you think Liljegren can't be that good of a prospect because he went 17th overall...and now you find him comparable to Kylington, who went 60th overall. Of course.

I wasn't the one comparing them though..

 

[93LEAFS]

Kylington isn't on the leafs

Yes, because I dramatically overrate Leafs prospects........... Kylington is a mess in his own zone, and was worse in his own zone at the same age. And, that's before we get to the supposed character concerns.

 

[X66]

Can't deny it, this Liljegren thread seems eerily similar to those Nylander threads back in the day.

Guess time will tell to see who is right, and although limited, he's been a real standout in all of his post draft showings so far(rookie camp and WJSS). Liljegren said himself he didn't feel like he was himself until January.

He has unteachable skills, which will serve him well.

 

[zharkenby]

Can't deny it, this Liljegren thread seems eerily similar to those Nylander threads back in the day.

Guess time will tell to see who is right, and although limited, he's been a real standout in all of his post draft showings so far(rookie camp and WJSS). Liljegren said himself he didn't feel like he was himself until January.

He has unteachable skills, which will serve him well.

Nylander was a top 10 pick who didn't slide dramatically in his draft year. not comparable situations at all aside from both being drafted by the leafs.

 

[X66]

Nylander was a top 10 pick who didn't slide dramatically in his draft year. not comparable situations at all aside from both being drafted by the leafs.

You're also comparing forwards to Dmen(Couture, Couturier, Nylander etc), it's a lot harder to gauge Dmen at the draft than it is forwards.

At the end of the day, your top 10 argument is a bit arbitrary, the only thing that matters is that highly touted prospects dropped in rankings.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Yes, because I dramatically overrate Leafs prospects........... Kylington is a mess in his own zone, and was worse in his own zone at the same age. And, that's before we get to the supposed character concerns.

Kylington is a mess in his own zone?

Keep on making things up. You do you.

Kylington is a monster. Just doesn't get the same hype. I mean you're bringing up "character concerns" that don't and never existed. And you're pointing exclusively to a year where he played through a bad back as evidence of his problems defensively.

Sorry that someone brough Kylington up in a Liljegren thread but try not to make up scouting reports. Kylington had an incredible U20 season in the AHL, where his lffensive production only suffered because the second youngest team in the AHL went on a collective prolonged offensive slump and his all-around play was miles ahead of his age group peers.

Liljegren is an awesome prospect. Guess what, Kylington is too. Neither are blue chip prospects but both have Norris type ceilings. If Liljegren has any advantage it is that he invites a bit more contact and shoots right. If Kylington has any advantage it's that he is an inch taller. The talent spread between 17th OA and 60th OA in most drafts isn't even as massive as the spread between 2nd overall and 10th overall. Plenty of elite defensemen like Subban and Letang were taken in the late second round and plenty were taken in the mid 1st.

 

[93LEAFS]

Kylington is a mess in his own zone?

Keep on making things up. You do you.

Kylington is a monster. Just doesn't get the same hype. I mean you're bringing up "character concerns" that don't and never existed. And you're pointing exclusively to a year where he played through a bad back as evidence of his problems defensively.

Sorry that someone brough Kylington up in a Liljegren thread but try not to make up scouting reports. Kylington had an incredible U20 season in the AHL, where his lffensive production only suffered because the second youngest team in the AHL went on a collective prolonged offensive slump and his all-around play was miles ahead of his age group peers.

Liljegren is an awesome prospect. Guess what, Kylington is too. Neither are blue chip prospects but both have Norris type ceilings.

He still makes a ton of blunders at the AHL level in his own zone. This isn't making things up. He was knocked for his play in his own-zone in his draft year, and there were rumors of character concerns. Neither of those are made up. Whether they are unfounded is a different question.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

He still makes a ton of blunders at the AHL level in his own zone.

which Stockton heat games did you watch to base this off of?

This isn't making things up. He was knocked for his play in his own-zone in his draft year

Not unlike Liljegren. But Mono is a valid excuse and a back injury is not, I am sure. Never mind that is a dated scouting report after two years of nothing but praise for his progression defensively.

, and there were rumors of character concerns.

Do tell.

 

[firstemperor]

Kylington had an incredible U20 season in the AHL, where his lffensive production only suffered because the second youngest team in the AHL went on a collective prolonged offensive slump and his all-around play was miles ahead of his age group peers.

We've heard this argument for Jankowski and Mangipane and I personally don't buy it, in general (as a point). Given the Leafs were one of the youngest teams in the AHL at one point as well.

And we've heard it used against Kapanen in the past as to why a PPG at 20 on one of the better teams in the AHL (while still being a relatively young team filled with Leaf prospects) as some sort of deterrent to his ability.

Being the best player on a strong, young AHL team is more of a testament to ability.

It shouldn't be applauded if your not producing on a "offensively-inept" or "young" team. Or really be used as an excuse for a high-end prospect- obviously factoring in age and all. It's the AHL and prospects should be tracking well if they want to be revered highly. For reference, Jankowski and Rychel have tracked somewhat similarly in terms of production.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

We've heard this argument for Jankowski and Mangipane and I personally don't buy it, in general (as a point). Given the Leafs were one of the youngest teams in the AHL at one point as well.

And we've heard it used against Kapanen in the past as to why a PPG at 20 on one of the better teams in the AHL (while still being a relatively young team filled with Leaf prospects) as some sort of deterrent to his ability.

Being the best player on a strong, young AHL team is more of a testament to ability.

It shouldn't be applauded if your not producing on a "offensively-inept" or "young" team. Or really be used as an excuse for a high-end prospect- obviously factoring in age and all. It's the AHL and prospects should be tracking well if they want to be revered highly. For reference, Jankowski and Rychel have tracked somewhat similarly in terms of production.

The heat were not offensively inept, though.

On either side of January, they were one of the top offensive teams in the AHL with all four lines producing offensively. No one was putting up ridiculous numbers because they were rolling four lines, but everyone was producing. In January no one produced. Part of that was actually that Kylington was up in Europe for World Juniors but when he came back the slump was already in place. Anyways point is Liljegren and Kylington are strong prospects. Take the Leafs Hype away and you realize no neither is up for blue chip status the way Charlie McAvoy is but both have a strong chance to be point producing #1 defensemen.

 

[93LEAFS]

which Stockton heat games did you watch to base this off of?



Not unlike Liljegren. But Mono is a valid excuse and a back injury is not, I am sure. Never mind that is a dated scouting report after two years of nothing but praise for his progression defensively.



Do tell.

I base it off what I've seen from him at u-18 and Sweden events. He's getting better, but he's not great in his own zone. Maybe mess was overstated, but he's notably behind Liljegren at the same age.

I have no idea how true they are, but there were rumors of character concerns at the time of his draft with people believing that's why he fell.

https://flamesnation.ca/2016/08/29/flamesnation-prospect-profile-5-oliver-kylington/

Oliver Kylington was a lighting rod of controversy all through his pre-draft years. Everything from his innate skill to his supposed attitude problems to his erratic draft ranking status was bantered about for years prior to Brad Treliving hollering out his name at 2015 NHL Draft, making him the 60th name yelled at the annual child lottery.

https://www.matchsticksandgasoline.com/2016/8/18/12540142/top-25-under-25-9-oliver-kylington

Furthermore, substantiated or not, his game was picked apart very harshly by some scouts, citing attitude issues, that he was undersized for a defender at 6-foot 180 pounds, and speaking of issues in the defensive end as if he was not a 17-year-old that would have plenty of time to rectify those deficiencies.

I mean, fellow posters from your board have commented on it. I didn't make the character rumors up.

Kylington definitely has an inflated ego. He's not a bad guy, like his fitness scores were near the top in the whole organization. He's husr a bit conceited

 

[theIceWookie]

can we see the data on player who had mono during their draft year?

Otherwise none of this is meaningful. The article does not give any other examples either.

Off the top of my head, Couture, Grigorenko, Couturier and Pietrangelo all had mono in their draft year.

So mixed bag of results.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I really do see this going the way of our last Swedish blue chip prospect with the Leafs being excited in how far he fell and hyping them up. Rest of HFBoards gets annoyed...Nylander actually has lived up to the promise but I am not sure (and no one is) if Liljegren will live up to the hype.

All I can say is based on what I have seen, I like.

 

[93LEAFS]

Off the top of my head, Couture, Grigorenko, Couturier and Pietrangelo all had mono in their draft year.

So mixed bag of results.

Pietrangelo never played with it, it ended his season, so he's not really relevent in the discussion. Gudbranson had it but it didn't hurt his stock. Grigorenko, only got it at the very end of the season (so he played a limited amount of games recovering). Couturier got it in the off-season, and Couture got it very early in the year.

The sample is quite small, its a virus that affects people differently and I would assume getting it very early in the year to the extent it causes you to miss training camp, is a big deal.

 

[Albi34]

Everyone is getting so worked up about where he should have been drafted. What is the point? The draft is done with, leaf fans are ecstatic, who cares where he was projected to go. It literally means nothing. I'd much rather hear analysis on how well he is playing, not where he "should have" been drafted.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Everyone is getting so worked up about where he should have been drafted. What is the point? The draft is done with, leaf fans are ecstatic, who cares where he was projected to go. It literally means nothing. I'd much rather hear analysis on how well he is playing, not where he "should have" been drafted.

My own thoughts based on watching the WJC warm up tournament is that Liljegren is pretty solid. I thought he helped create offense for his team and was pretty poised. He had 1 game where he made 1 poor pass but other then that, the positives far outweighed the negatives for me.

We got him at 17th and we're lucky to do so. I always said once the draft order was more or less set that we're gonna need to land a Charlie McAvoy type pick to help us go further, we need that top 4 RHD picking mid 1st round.