RD Timothy Liljegren - Ex-Rogle BK, SHL (2017, 17th, TOR) III

[TDK67]

not for nothing, but read this and it made me realize liljegren didn't fall because of attitude or work ethic, he fell because of his play. not mono. Ill make this point one final time. He was projected to go at the top of the draft (great, doesn't matter at all because he didn't). this means scouts had seen ALOT of him prior to this year. They know what he is. This year, as people watched closer the flaws in his game became evident. He fell because of those, not his illness.

You realize mono impacts play, right? Mono isn't a broken bone that gets rehabbed over time and sees the player confidently return 100%.

Maybe do some research on mono and how it affects everyone differently if you want to understand why/how mono would impact on-ice performance even after the individual is "cured".

 

[Frk It]

Let's just ignore what mono did to Couture and Couturier's stock. Couture went from #1 on ISS to being ranked in the teens by central scouting by the draft, and is arguably the 2nd best player from his draft class taken in the 1st round. Couture slipped to 8th after being top 2, and the only player taken ahead of him who is clearly better is Scheifele (who was a reach), Larsson, RNH and Landeskog are all debatable.

Weren't you previously of the mindset that fallers "fall for a reason"? Thought I remember you having that stance on Chycrhun last year, but I could be wrong.

Or I'm assuming you may have changed your mind on that, which is totally fine.

 

[93LEAFS]

Weren't you previously of the mindset that fallers "fall for a reason"? Thought I remember you having that stance on Chycrhun last year, but I could be wrong.

Or I'm assuming you may have changed your mind on that, which is totally fine.

Generally, there are reasons, but they, whether they are actually valid, is another question entirely.

You can't just say that mono should be completely ignored and it had nothing to do with him falling, and it isn't the 100% reason that he fell. People trying to say it was a non-factor are completely ignoring the history of guys who fell due to mono and are using it to slag his Hockey-Iq, which was never called into question prior to this year. So, given the limited sample we have, you can't really separate mono from the IQ question. This year will show who is correct. But, to completely dismiss either side is ridiculous.

I thought Chychrun fell too much, but he still fell for somewhat valid reasons.He had a spotty medical history and he skated himself into trouble a lot. His U-18's got over exagerated. He looked good for the Coyotes this year after he simplified his game, but it does make you wonder about his overall offensive package and whether he has the skill to be a true #1 defender. He reminded me of Bogosian in his draft year, in that he was ridiculously talented, but you wondered if he could put it all together. Hopefully, for the Coyotes sake he does.

 

[zharkenby]

Let's just ignore what mono did to Couture and Couturier's stock. Couture went from #1 on ISS to being ranked in the teens by central scouting by the draft, and is arguably the 2nd best player from his draft class taken in the 1st round. Couture slipped to 8th after being top 2, and the only player taken ahead of him who is clearly better is Scheifele (who was a reach), Larsson, RNH and Landeskog are all debatable.

Heres what you don't understand, and I'm only going to explain this once since it applies to the majority of your posts. Theres a common theme. Ranging from what you just said about Couture and Couturier, and comparing these threads to Marner and Nylander. what is it you ask? ALL OF THESE PLAYERS WENT TOP 10 IN THEIR DRAFT CLASS. While draft position really doesn't matter all that much, mono did not make them slip nearly as far down as liljegren. now if this was really a considerably weaker draft class (which I believe you have stated) and he fell to the second half of the draft, this isn't even comparable. these other guys you've talked about fell less than 10 spots. liljegren fell 15. Thus making these situations not comparable.

 

[Frk It]

Generally, there are reasons, but they, whether they are actually valid, is another question entirely.

You can't just say that mono should be completely ignored and it had nothing to do with him falling, and it isn't the 100% reason that he fell. People trying to say it was a non-factor are completely ignoring the history of guys who fell due to mono and are using it to slag his Hockey-Iq, which was never called into question prior to this year. So, given the limited sample we have, you can't really separate mono from the IQ question. This year will show who is correct. But, to completely dismiss either side is ridiculous.

I thought Chychrun fell too much, but he still fell for somewhat valid reasons.He had a spotty medical history and he skated himself into trouble a lot. His U-18's got over exagerated. He looked good for the Coyotes this year after he simplified his game, but it does make you wonder about his overall offensive package and whether he has the skill to be a true #1 defender. He reminded me of Bogosian in his draft year, in that he was ridiculously talented, but you wondered if he could put it all together. Hopefully, for the Coyotes sake he does.

I think that Mono excuses his play after he came back for a bit. I don't think it excuses his entire draft season. So while it is a big reason, I can't agree it's "100% the reason".

I think a lot of it was mental, and he was trying to do too much. Whether or not it was just that, or he lacks some hockey IQ, only time will really answer that question.

He is a big upside guy, and Toronto needed the highest upside defenseman available IMO. He is a guy worthy of being excited over. But we will have to see if he makes better decisions with the puck this year, and if he can reel in his risky tendencies that get him burned from time to time.

Babcock never really liked risky defenseman in his time in Detroit, so I'll be curious to see how that plays out down the line for you guys.

 

[93LEAFS]

Heres what you don't understand, and I'm only going to explain this once since it applies to the majority of your posts. Theres a common theme. Ranging from what you just said about Couture and Couturier, and comparing these threads to Marner and Nylander. what is it you ask? ALL OF THESE PLAYERS WENT TOP 10 IN THEIR DRAFT CLASS. While draft position really doesn't matter all that much, mono did not make them slip nearly as far down as liljegren. now if this was really a considerably weaker draft class (which I believe you have stated) and he fell to the second half of the draft, this isn't even comparable. these other guys you've talked about fell less than 10 spots. liljegren fell 15. Thus making these situations not comparable.

They absolutely are. You are grasping at straws to say situations with guys who got mono aren't comparable. Couture slipped from being the #1 prospect according to ISS. You can only really use the examples of players who previously had mono and how it affected their draft stock. And it happened to affect all of them negatively. Which you want to ignore because they didn't slip quite as much. A bunch of reliable sources still had Liljegren as a top 10 player (HockeyProspect.Com and Craig Button)

This draft was weaker than 2011, but most of that was due to an incredibly weak top 5. 2007 was also a very weak draft historically. Colin White who was top 5 and slipped into the 20's was in a deep draft.

 

[93LEAFS]

I think that Mono excuses his play after he came back for a bit. I don't think it excuses his entire draft season.

I think a lot of it was mental, and he was trying to do too much. Whether or not it was just that, or he lacks some hockey IQ, only time will really answer that question.

He is a big upside guy, and Toronto needed the highest upside defenseman available IMO. He is a guy worthy of being excited over. But we will have to see if he makes better decisions with the puck this year, and if he can reel in his risky tendencies that get him burned from time to time.

Babcock never really liked risky defenseman in his time in Detroit, so I'll be curious to see how that plays out down the line for you guys.

He never really got a groove of ice-time, and then injured his hip mid-season and therefore mostly played J-20's before a sizable layoff to the U-18's.

As pointed out we will see, but the complaints about his IQ were non-existent before he got mono, so we have to see how he bounces back to see how much of an affect it had.

 

[Frk It]

He never really got a groove of ice-time, and then injured his hip mid-season and therefore mostly played J-20's before a sizable layoff to the U-18's.

As pointed out we will see, but the complaints about his IQ were non-existent before he got mono, so we have to see how he bounces back to see how much of an affect it had.

Right, but while Mono may have put more pressure on him upon returning... it wasn't the thing that was making him make bad decisions with the puck... that was all him.

I agree with your last sentence. But you also have to figure that after bursting on the scene in his -1 year that teams may have been keying in on him more.

Again, I like him as a prospect... Just trying to play both sides here and give some things to consider

 

[93LEAFS]

Right, but while Mono may have put more pressure on him upon returning... it wasn't the thing that was making him make bad decisions with the puck... that was all him.

Playing with depleted energy can have the effect of sloppy decision making. Look at the chapter on Couture in Future Greats and Heartbreaks when he was coming back from mono in the OHL. He didn't look like the same player and was quite sloppy with the puck. So, I would say coming back from injuries can lead to players trying to work off rust, and making bad decisions due to lack of conditioning.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Let's just ignore what mono did to Couture and Couturier's stock. Couture went from #1 on ISS to being ranked in the teens by central scouting by the draft, and is arguably the 2nd best player from his draft class taken in the 1st round. Couture slipped to 8th after being top 2, and the only player taken ahead of him who is clearly better is Scheifele (who was a reach), Larsson, RNH and Landeskog are all debatable.

But the scouts were right about Couturier. He was picked right around where he should have been picked. He would definitely be picked behind Hamilton and Brodin now. He's a 35-40-point 3rd line centre. Those have some value but certainly less than a 3-4 defenseman.

I mean, the only guy you can definitely say he was ahead of in the top-9 is Ryan Strome.

So Couturier really just proves the opposite of what you're trying to argue.

 

[Frk It]

Playing with depleted energy can have the effect of sloppy decision making. Look at the chapter on Couture in Future Greats and Heartbreaks when he was coming back from mono in the OHL. He didn't look like the same player and was quite sloppy with the puck. So, I would say coming back from injuries can lead to players trying to work off rust, and making bad decisions due to lack of conditioning.

Hard to say what the source of those errors were. Could have been fatigue. Could have been overconfidence with the puck. Could have been teams keying in on him more.

Could have been a combo of all those things. This year should give us a better idea.

 

[93LEAFS]

But the scouts were right about Couturier. He was picked right around where he should have been picked. He would definitely be picked behind Hamilton and Brodin now. He's a 35-40-point 3rd line centre. Those have some value but certainly less than a 3-4 defenseman.

I mean, the only guy you can definitely say he was ahead of in the top-9 is Ryan Strome.

So Couturier really just proves the opposite of what you're trying to argue.

As of today, he probably goes above Landeskog and RNH, he's one of the best defensive centers in the league and is dramatically underrated around here because he doesn't have lofty totals. I'd also take him above Zibanejad. The only person significantly better and more valuable than him is Scheifele.

 

[zharkenby]

They absolutely are. You are grasping at straws to say situations with guys who got mono aren't comparable. Couture slipped from being the #1 prospect according to ISS. You can only really use the examples of players who previously had mono and how it affected their draft stock. And it happened to affect all of them negatively. Which you want to ignore because they didn't slip quite as much. A bunch of reliable sources still had Liljegren as a top 10 player (HockeyProspect.Com and Craig Button)

This draft was weaker than 2011, but most of that was due to an incredibly weak top 5. 2007 was also a very weak draft historically. Colin White who was top 5 and slipped into the 20's was in a deep draft.

Grasping at straws is exactly what you are doing my friend. "A bunch of reliable sources" literally means nothing. why? because he didn't go in the top 10, or top 15. of every player you mentioned, TL slipped farther than all of them. You can keep telling yourself what you want though. This guy is the most overhyped prospect to be drafted in the 2nd half of the first round ever.

 

[TopShelfWaterBottle]

#4 if he or Developes correctly

 

[93LEAFS]

Grasping at straws is exactly what you are doing my friend. "A bunch of reliable sources" literally means nothing. why? because he didn't go in the top 10, or top 15. of every player you mentioned, TL slipped farther than all of them. You can keep telling yourself what you want though. This guy is the most overhyped prospect to be drafted in the 2nd half of the first round ever.

That's why you thought he'd go 7th overall. Glad you feel it's your job to tell Leafs fans that we are overhyping him and have posted more about him in the last month than your own team.

You want to ignore the effect mono had on other players draft season because they didn't slip as far, so you can entirely blame his "hockey-IQ" which no one questioned until after he battled mono. He slipped for a bunch of reasons. Mono caused him to waste a year of development, while other players caught up, but that doesn't remove his previous upside, which seems to be a concept you can't grasp.

Funny how post-draft you have such strong opinions about a player when he's played all of 4 games since then.

 

[BruinsBtn]

As of today, he probably goes above Landeskog and RNH, he's one of the best defensive centers in the league and is dramatically underrated around here because he doesn't have lofty totals. I'd also take him above Zibanejad. The only person significantly better and more valuable than him is Scheifele.

You're alone. He goes #9 in a redraft of the top-10 today. His career highs are 15 goals and 39 points. Even Strome has 50, and had 40 last year. Zero chance he goes ahead of any of those defensemen. Taking him above Huberdeau is laughable.

 

[93LEAFS]

You're alone. He goes #9 in a redraft of the top-10 today. His career highs are 15 goals and 39 points. Even Strome has 50, and had 40 last year. Zero chance he goes ahead of any of those defensemen.

Yet, he's probably the best possession player, and the best measure of defensive play around (GAR) has him as the 2nd most valuable player on the Flyers and ahead of everyone in the top 10 outside of Scheifele.

This is far from perfect, but when you look at his all around usage, his deployment and how good he is against #1 centers. It shows Couturier is a damn valuable player. At tilting the ice and stopping top line players from scoring.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...PGq5AjuW6UC-QLty6tveyP9yM/edit#gid=1352741744

 

[djames]

It's amazing how many people can't grasp the concept of mono having different recovery times for people, and completely ignoring how it impacts day to day lives of regular people, let alone professional athletes.

If you're just trying to rip on a prospect with no constructive reasons to support your point, that's pretty sad. It'll be funny when he's skating circles around everyone else.

 

[zharkenby]

That's why you thought he'd go 7th overall. Glad you feel it's your job to tell Leafs fans that we are overhyping him and have posted more about him in the last month than your own team.

You want to ignore the effect mono had on other players draft season because they didn't slip as far, so you can entirely blame his "hockey-IQ" which no one questioned until after he battled mono. He slipped for a bunch of reasons. Mono caused him to waste a year of development, while other players caught up, but that doesn't remove his previous upside, which seems to be a concept you can't grasp.

Funny how post-draft you have such strong opinions about a player when he's played all of 4 games since then.

You're reading comprehension skills baffle me. My mock draft was solely a prediction of where I thought people would get drafted. Find me a post where I have EVER stated I think liljegren would be a great player and was deserving of a top 10 draft pick. I reasonably suggested Arizona would reach for him because of chychurn last year. never said I thought it would be a good idea. Sue me, I don't like him as a player and don't think hell have the great NHL future you leafs fans do. The fact that one persons negative opinion matters so much to you proves just how insecure you are about him panning out, which really makes no sense because he wasn't even that high of a draft pick.

 

[93LEAFS]

You're reading comprehension skills baffle me. My mock draft was solely a prediction of where I thought people would get drafted. Find me a post where I have EVER stated I think liljegren would be a great player and was deserving of a top 10 draft pick. I reasonably suggested Arizona would reach for him because of chychurn last year. never said I thought it would be a good idea. Sue me, I don't like him as a player and don't think hell have the great NHL future you leafs fans do.

It amazes me you have such strong feelings about a player you maybe commented 5 times about pre-draft, but now are supposed to defer to your expert opinion. Now, a guy you thought had a good chance of going top 10 (who you never called over hyped), is now the most over-hyped player taken in the bottom 15 of the draft and its a mockery people rank him above Brannstrom (despite that being an almost universal opinion prior to the draft).

Seems if you thought he was so overrated, you would have said something prior to June 24th.....

It has nothing to do with insecurity, and more to do with your uniformed opinion that you managed to form since no games have really been played and you decide to camp-out in this thread. So, it's fun to point out how ridiculous and invalid your opinion is.

 

[Strait2thecup]

As of today, he probably goes above Landeskog and RNH, he's one of the best defensive centers in the league and is dramatically underrated around here because he doesn't have lofty totals. I'd also take him above Zibanejad. The only person significantly better and more valuable than him is Scheifele.

This is allllll wrong and I feel like you know that, you're just using it now that you've been caught in your own argument

From what I remember, couturier fell bc of doubts on his true offensive upside, and would ya look at that, the scouts were right. Anyway, let the battle continue lol

 

[AppsSyl]

I mean, pretty sure if I thought liljegren was going to be good I wouldn't be wasting my time listing valid reasons as to why he wouldn't be. Unlike you I don't prance around hf boards looking for validation. The Summer showcase really doesn't mean all that much... for example I'm a devil fan. Joey Anderson was excellent during these games. But you don't see me ranting and raving about how he's going to be the next great thing. Thanks for playing though.

No you just prance around beating the same drum saying, "mono had no effect," and he was "drafted where he was ranked," etc. What is ridiculous is that 93Leafs has provided you with evidence of other players who have had mono and were impacted in a similar way to Liljegren, and I provided a consensus rankings of 12 major draft rankings that show he was ranked #11 and did in fact slide.

Put the name of the player aside, would you think it out of the ordinary if a guy ranked #11 went 5th or 6th. I doubt it, because one of your own prospects Pavel Zacha was the consensus #11 ranked player in 2015, but NJ picked him 6th. For some reason you can't seem to realize that although Liljegren went 17 that isn't where he was expected to go.

His play and progress this season will do the talking, but I suspect if he shows he is what was prior to this season you will be nowhere to be found in this thread.

 

[zharkenby]

It amazes me you have such strong feelings about a player you maybe commented 5 times about pre-draft, but now are supposed to defer to your expert opinion. Now, a guy you thought had a good chance of going top 10 (who you never called over hyped), is now the most over-hyped player taken in the bottom 15 of the draft and its a mockery people rank him above Brannstrom (despite that being an almost universal opinion prior to the draft).

Seems if you thought he was so overrated, you would have said something prior to June 24th.....

It has nothing to do with insecurity, and more to do with your uniformed opinion that you managed to form since no games have really been played and you decide to camp-out in this thread. So, it's fun to point out how ridiculous and invalid your opinion is.

See thats just it. He wasn't overhyped until the leafs drafted him.

 

[zharkenby]

No you just prance around beating the same drum saying, "mono had no effect," and he was "drafted where he was ranked," etc. What is ridiculous is that 93Leafs has provided you with evidence of other players who have had mono and were impacted in a similar way to Liljegren, and I provided a consensus rankings of 12 major draft rankings that show he was ranked #11 and did in fact slide.

Put the name of the player aside, would you think it out of the ordinary if a guy ranked #11 went 5th or 6th. I doubt it, because one of your own prospects Pavel Zacha was the consensus #11 ranked player in 2015, but NJ picked him 6th. For some reason you can't seem to realize that although Liljegren went 17 that isn't where he was expected to go.

His play and progress this season will do the talking, but I suspect if he shows he is what was prior to this season you will be nowhere to be found in this thread.

I believe that on Mckenzies list during the 2015 draft Zacha was either 6 or 8... not 11. completely irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make though. Liljegren didn't rise, he fell, so I don't see the relevance at all.

 

[93LEAFS]

See thats just it. He wasn't overhyped until the leafs drafted him.

Except you claim its an outrage people have him over Brannstrom, when that was almost a universal opinion prior to the draft. Doesn't seem you had an opinion on Brannstrom until he was drafted. Now you have an extremely strong one. If you thought he was going to go 7th, wouldn't he have been overdrafted by Arizona considering your stance on him now?