RD Adam Boqvist - Brynas J20, Superelit (2018, 8th, CHI)

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Winston Wolf

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What does that even mean? Boqvist vastly outplayed Dobson at the Ivan Hlinka. Hughes wasn't great the U20's and had fewer points in his U18 WC appearance than Boqvist. Bouchard hasn't played many international tournaments but was held pointless when he played the Hlinka last year. So what exactly is he basing this opinion off? League play? News flash: Boqvist dominated his junior league just as much as the other guys did.
He specifically mentions his defense and play without the puck. He also states someone told him "that the league was easy for him" and compares that to how juniors were easy for McDavid, but he still went out and competed hard. Take it for what it's worth.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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Pavel Buchnevich

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Ahead of those gritty North Americans like Dahlin, Svechnikov, and Zadina, right?

The NA media likes players who play in their junior leagues.

How do you explain Pettersson being picked 5th after he had a 1OA resume last season? Now in a re-draft, it seems like he'd go 1OA. This is what tends to happen to Europeans who play in Europe. They are often underrated when the draft comes around, and those who play in NA, especially the North American players, get overrated.
 
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docbenton

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What does that even mean? Boqvist vastly outplayed Dobson at the Ivan Hlinka. Hughes wasn't great the U20's and had fewer points in his U18 WC appearance than Boqvist. Bouchard hasn't played many international tournaments but was held pointless when he played the Hlinka last year. So what exactly is he basing this opinion off? League play? News flash: Boqvist dominated his junior league just as much as the other guys did.

Bouchard played Hlinka when he was a 16 yo; for chronological perspective Hischier and Dahlin both played in that tournament and each only had 2 points. I would argue Bouchard was more dominant in juniors than Boqvist was. Hughes played at the U18s last year when he was younger than Boqvist is now and was terrific, arguably controlled the game more. He's had a great season in NCAA which is obviously a tougher league than Swedish U20. The Boqvist-Dobson comparison is a fair one however since it was the same Hlinka tournament. That's why I have Dobson rated the lowest of the four as he is the least talented to the eye and the least productive considering international play.
 
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lawrence

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What does that even mean? Boqvist vastly outplayed Dobson at the Ivan Hlinka. Hughes wasn't great the U20's and had fewer points in his U18 WC appearance than Boqvist. Bouchard hasn't played many international tournaments but was held pointless when he played the Hlinka last year. So what exactly is he basing this opinion off? League play? News flash: Boqvist dominated his junior league just as much as the other guys did.

https://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-dahlin-cemented-top-status-at-world-juniors-1.962249

confusing, as Button had him as high as number 2 less then 90 days ago, while Bouchard was 10, Dobson was 11 and Hughes was 7. so 90 days ago, Boqvist was literally the 2nd best prospect, less then 90 days later, he's a "cut below" those 3. It's great to hear opinion from a former NHL GM/Scout, but now I know why he's no longer employed in any NHL team.
 
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CanaFan

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The NA media likes players who play in their junior leagues.

How do you explain Pettersson being picked 5th after he had a 1OA resume last season? Now in a re-draft, it seems like he'd go 1OA. This is what tends to happen to Europeans who play in Europe. They are often underrated when the draft comes around, and those who play in NA, especially the North American players, get overrated.

I’m confused. You say the NA media liked guys who play in their jr leagues but then you jump to Pettersson being drafted 5th as if the two things connect. Do you believe the media does the drafting for NHL teams?

As for Pettersson, sure he’d go higher in a re-draft but that’s based on what he’s done AFTER the draft, not at the time. Plus he went 5th. Last I checked, that’s pretty high yes? And didn’t Heiskanen (Liiga) go 3rd in that same draft? Plus Button says Kotkaniemi (Liiga) will be moving up his next draft rankings towards the top 5.

Sorry but I’m not seeing a clear trend in your data points. Button critiquing Boqvist is based on Boqvist, not your silly persecution complex.
 

Winston Wolf

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https://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-dahlin-cemented-top-status-at-world-juniors-1.962249

confusing, as Button had him as high as number 2 less then 90 days ago, while Bouchard was 10, Dobson was 11 and Hughes was 7. so 90 days ago, Boqvist was literally the 2nd best prospect, less then 90 days later, he's a "cut below" those 3. It's great to hear opinion from a former NHL GM/Scout, but now I know why he's no longer employed in any NHL team.
That's pretty normal. Liljegren was ranked number 3 even later than that in the year by actual NHL scouts in McKenzie's midseason list last year. That list also had multiple guys ranked in the first round at that point that went in the 4th round and a guy like Chytil was ranked in the 3rd round at that point. So no, it's not just Button.
 

TheWhiskeyThief

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I’m confused. You say the NA media liked guys who play in their jr leagues but then you jump to Pettersson being drafted 5th as if the two things connect. Do you believe the media does the drafting for NHL teams?

As for Pettersson, sure he’d go higher in a re-draft but that’s based on what he’s done AFTER the draft, not at the time. Plus he went 5th. Last I checked, that’s pretty high yes? And didn’t Heiskanen (Liiga) go 3rd in that same draft? Plus Button says Kotkaniemi (Liiga) will be moving up his next draft rankings towards the top 5.

Sorry but I’m not seeing a clear trend in your data points. Button critiquing Boqvist is based on Boqvist, not your silly persecution complex.

Excuse my tangent...
Pettersson is so scrawny even now it’d be tough to get 10 NHL seasons out of him before age 28. His scoring rate is still below Bud Holloway(who was a fringe NHLer in his prime) so he will need at least another season to get towards optimal playing weight. Over the time of cost certainty before age 28, the players at 1&2 will provide more value than Pettersson will, even if his peak is better.

I’ve written chapter and verse prior on Boqvist and if you are actually watching prospects rather than picking others brains, you will have gaps in coverage. Cross checkers have to rely pretty hard on people they trust or have to aggregate all the opinions here.

You watch a guy like Boqvist, note the good things, bad things and keep an eye on the stats to see if impressions match production. Then at the big tourneys you re-evaluate. Did Boqvist get better on his O? That was sorta static. Did he clean up his weaknesses? Not really. What’s changed from Hlinka? A couple of concussions, a couple incidents with his knee(even if he didn’t miss more than 30 minutes.) So some medical flags, some more important than others.

But at the end of the day, for as good as the offensive skill set he has, the defensive flaws coupled with his body mass issues make me put ayelow flag on him, even before the concussions.

The concussions can hinder his gym time, which hinders the progress in building his muscle mass.

That hinders his timeline into making the NHL, which decreases the potential value. Then you get into what his production can be before he goes UFA. That number at 3 might be an insane risk, while at 16 it’s a calculated risk while at 25 it’s playing with house money.

It’s all about your organizational and personal risk tolerance.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich

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I’m confused. You say the NA media liked guys who play in their jr leagues but then you jump to Pettersson being drafted 5th as if the two things connect. Do you believe the media does the drafting for NHL teams?

As for Pettersson, sure he’d go higher in a re-draft but that’s based on what he’s done AFTER the draft, not at the time. Plus he went 5th. Last I checked, that’s pretty high yes? And didn’t Heiskanen (Liiga) go 3rd in that same draft? Plus Button says Kotkaniemi (Liiga) will be moving up his next draft rankings towards the top 5.

Sorry but I’m not seeing a clear trend in your data points. Button critiquing Boqvist is based on Boqvist, not your silly persecution complex.

You don't think that media bias affects the actual picks? I think it does. It's hard to completely block it out, and go with your own instincts. These NA management types presumably all read these articles from the NA media, I think the overwhelming bias towards NA players and those that play in NA leagues ends up influencing their own opinions. It's easier to let that happen than to block out the noise and put forth a radically different opinion.

I never said that players playing in Europe aren't picked high, but I do believe they suffer in perception. Pettersson had a 1OA resume going into the draft. Do you think Hischier or Patrick would've been nearly 1PPG in Allsvenskan? I don't think so.
 

Winston Wolf

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Button is not biased against Europeans, go look at his lists throughout the years. He's surely hit and miss, but he's just as likely to miss having a European player way too high, as he is in having them too low. Go look at the threads from 2013 and 2014. He had Lazar out of the first round in 2013 and was called a moron. He ranked Virtanen in the 40s all year in 2014 and was laughed off this board. He also had Lindholm higher than everyone in 2012 (besides the Ducks, of course) and was one of the few to have Hedman over Tavares in 2009.

He might end up being wrong on Boqvist, but it has nothing to do with him being European.
 

lawrence

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You don't think that media bias affects the actual picks? I think it does.

absolutely not. In fact I don't see a scenario where Boqvist will be the last dman picked out of the top 4 non Dhalin Dmans. nothing to do with Media. Button is not Don Cherry.
 

VictorLustig

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Excuse my tangent...
Pettersson is so scrawny even now it’d be tough to get 10 NHL seasons out of him before age 28. His scoring rate is still below Bud Holloway(who was a fringe NHLer in his prime) so he will need at least another season to get towards optimal playing weight. Over the time of cost certainty before age 28, the players at 1&2 will provide more value than Pettersson will, even if his peak is better.

I’ve written chapter and verse prior on Boqvist and if you are actually watching prospects rather than picking others brains, you will have gaps in coverage. Cross checkers have to rely pretty hard on people they trust or have to aggregate all the opinions here.

You watch a guy like Boqvist, note the good things, bad things and keep an eye on the stats to see if impressions match production. Then at the big tourneys you re-evaluate. Did Boqvist get better on his O? That was sorta static. Did he clean up his weaknesses? Not really. What’s changed from Hlinka? A couple of concussions, a couple incidents with his knee(even if he didn’t miss more than 30 minutes.) So some medical flags, some more important than others.

But at the end of the day, for as good as the offensive skill set he has, the defensive flaws coupled with his body mass issues make me put ayelow flag on him, even before the concussions.

The concussions can hinder his gym time, which hinders the progress in building his muscle mass.

That hinders his timeline into making the NHL, which decreases the potential value. Then you get into what his production can be before he goes UFA. That number at 3 might be an insane risk, while at 16 it’s a calculated risk while at 25 it’s playing with house money.

It’s all about your organizational and personal risk tolerance.

Yeah a player must be in the NHL before he is 20 or else he provides less value. Landeskog, Larsson and Paajarvi over Forsberg, Lidström, Alfredsson, Klingberg any day. Just isn't worth the wait, the value Nolan Patrick brought to the Flyers this year was insane.

Holloway scored at a higher rate in the SHL than prime Daniel Alfredsson (who finished 5th in NHL scoring the following year). Using your logic, imagine how many points Pettersson is getting next season ;)
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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He might end up being wrong on Boqvist, but it has nothing to do with him being European.

I think there's a culture of being biased against those who don't play in NA for the NA draft media. I wouldn't say he dislikes European players or anything like that, but his claims seem pretty absurd and it's really no big surprise that they are being leveled against Boqvist as opposed to Hughes. They weren't leveled against Makar last season.
 
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FrankGallagher

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I think there's a culture of being biased against those who don't play in NA for the NA draft media. I wouldn't say he dislikes European players or anything like that, but his claims seem pretty absurd and it's really no big surprise that they are being leveled against Boqvist as opposed to Hughes. They weren't leveled against Makar last season.
But look at McKenzies consensus list, has Boqvist 6th and Hughes 9th. I would say its just a case of Button having a certain opinion about Boqvist than some greater bias against European players in the draft media.

I think the only europeans that suffer from some media bias are guys who weren't highly touted coming into the year, i.e. Berggren, Kaut, Bokk. And as always there is a strong bias against Russians who have stayed in their country.
 

Kalleteodor

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Button: Don't feel Boqvist is in same class as Hughes, Dobson, Bouchard

Button questions his compete level and ability to respond when challenged by better players. Says Hughes, Dobson, and Bouchard are a cut above Boqvist.

Edit: Boqvist part is at 3 minutes.

I think it´s easy to guess in what order they will go. It´ll be Boqvist, Hughes, Dobson and Bouchard. Why?
Just count the pages they got on hfboards…
Dahlin 46, Boqvist 21, Hughes 18, Dobson 7, Bouchard 1
 
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CanaFan

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You don't think that media bias affects the actual picks? I think it does. It's hard to completely block it out, and go with your own instincts. These NA management types presumably all read these articles from the NA media, I think the overwhelming bias towards NA players and those that play in NA leagues ends up influencing their own opinions. It's easier to let that happen than to block out the noise and put forth a radically different opinion.

I never said that players playing in Europe aren't picked high, but I do believe they suffer in perception. Pettersson had a 1OA resume going into the draft. Do you think Hischier or Patrick would've been nearly 1PPG in Allsvenskan? I don't think so.

No, I don’t think media “bias” impacts NHL scouts and GMs at all. You think they’re sitting around reading Craig Buttons mock drafts for guidance??

Pettersson had good credentials but he wasn’t any sort of a slam dunk for 1OA. You do know one of the players that “bumped him” also played in Europe too, right? How could Heiskanen possibly have bumped Pettersson without the benefit of a NA media bias? Oh right, maybe some NHL teams were simply higher on Heiskanen than Pettersson. Just like they were simply higher on Hischier, Patrick, and Makar.
 

TheWhiskeyThief

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Yeah a player must be in the NHL before he is 20 or else he provides less value. Landeskog, Larsson and Paajarvi over Forsberg, Lidström, Alfredsson, Klingberg any day. Just isn't worth the wait, the value Nolan Patrick brought to the Flyers this year was insane.

Holloway scored at a higher rate in the SHL than prime Daniel Alfredsson (who finished 5th in NHL scoring the following year). Using your logic, imagine how many points Pettersson is getting next season ;)

I’m sorry you don’t understand how the CBA works and that it isn’t 2005 anymore.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Bouchard played Hlinka when he was a 16 yo; for chronological perspective Hischier and Dahlin both played in that tournament and each only had 2 points. I would argue Bouchard was more dominant in juniors than Boqvist was. Hughes played at the U18s last year when he was younger than Boqvist is now and was terrific, arguably controlled the game more. He's had a great season in NCAA which is obviously a tougher league than Swedish U20. The Boqvist-Dobson comparison is a fair one however since it was the same Hlinka tournament. That's why I have Dobson rated the lowest of the four as he is the least talented to the eye and the least productive considering international play.
Basing it on the Hlinka is a full hockey season away for 17 year olds.. After the Hlinka everyone had Kupari ahead of Kotkaniemi... now almost no one would. In a way its very similar to Boqvist vs Dobson... Boqvist was the apple in everyone's eye at the Hlinka ... now Dobson has caught him and in the minds of many passed him much like Kotkaniemi and Kupari.. it should not be surprising .. things change
 

NikF

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As suspected, NA media thinks the European player is too soft. If he was from Saskatoon, they'd have him 2nd or 3rd.

Is it really just NA media though? We only scout European prospects and we had Boqvist lower all year than all North American sources we came across.

What Button is saying on that radio show actually sounds very similar to something we posted in our last thread when questioned about our Boqvist ranking:

Things we saw in Boqvist's JUNIOR game over last 2 years (part of the reason why we didn't rank him as high as others even prior to this season) which we feared might pose challenges to him when playing against pros (or NHL caliber competition down the line) were so far confirmed in the games we saw of him playing against pros. Those issues aren't completely gone when he plays against juniors, but they don't jump out nearly as much, mainly because junior players aren't good enough for the most part to challenge him in that way...We feel like his intensity and level of engagement defensively and away from the puck are not at that high of a level...Those issues to us seem more related to mental attributes than to the need of adding more strength...
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/draftin-europe-april-ranking.2474551/
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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Is it really just NA media though? We only scout European prospects and we had Boqvist lower all year than all North American sources we came across.

What Button is saying on that radio show actually sounds very similar to something we posted in our last thread when questioned about our Boqvist ranking:


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/draftin-europe-april-ranking.2474551/

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think its shared by many. I guess we'll have to see who ends up being correct.
 

JAS 39 Gripen

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I’m confused. You say the NA media liked guys who play in their jr leagues but then you jump to Pettersson being drafted 5th as if the two things connect. Do you believe the media does the drafting for NHL teams?

As for Pettersson, sure he’d go higher in a re-draft but that’s based on what he’s done AFTER the draft, not at the time. Plus he went 5th. Last I checked, that’s pretty high yes? And didn’t Heiskanen (Liiga) go 3rd in that same draft? Plus Button says Kotkaniemi (Liiga) will be moving up his next draft rankings towards the top 5.

Sorry but I’m not seeing a clear trend in your data points. Button critiquing Boqvist is based on Boqvist, not your silly persecution complex.
Button claims that Boqvist compete level and level of play sinks when hes facing better players, yet he did score 2 goals vs Canada last tournament and nearly netted the hat trick in OT. He's just so bad...

Wait, maybe Canada sucks these days...thats gotta be what Button means!

I also like how people still actually listens to that guy anymore, hes like a vanilla Cherry
 
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CanaFan

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Button claims that Boqvist compete level and level of play sinks when hes facing better players, yet he did score 2 goals vs Canada last tournament and nearly netted the hat trick in OT. He's just so bad...

Wait, maybe Canada sucks these days...thats gotta be what Button means!

I also like how people still actually listens to that guy anymore, hes like a vanilla Cherry

Hey you can hate Button as much as you like, it’s no matter to me.

I merely waded in when it got floated that he is biased against European players.
 
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